Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[SAPhil]

I accept that the mock up doesn't have all the features but does any one know whether any features for people standing are likely to be added. Apart from the grab handles by the seats there doesn't seem to be anywhere to hold on to. It's all very well trying out the seats but what is like when the train is rammed full!

 

[A-driver]

I accept that the mock up doesn't have all the features but does any one know whether any features for people standing are likely to be added. Apart from the grab handles by the seats there doesn't seem to be anywhere to hold on to. It's all very well trying out the seats but what is like when the train is rammed full!

People standing should probably be strapped to the walls as the ATO in the core (the it which will see trains most rammed) looks to be set to the most aggressive level! I. Other words like the ATO tube lines which think nothing of fully accelerating and then suddenly throwing the brakes fully on with out any coasting between...

 

[TEW]

In general the Tube ATO can be very aggressive. When stopping at a station there's no easing up of the brake as the train comes to a stop, it's full braking all the way so you normally end up stopping with quite a jolt. If Thameslink is similar then you're going to need plenty of things to hold on to.

 

[DJL]

I often find that I have nothing to hold on to, and yet it doesn't really matter because if I'm that far from a hand-hold then the train is so full that it is impossible to fall over anyway

 

[Bald Rick]

So only 2 trains more than the current off-peak service?

Or, more likely, none.
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Unless the WGC services are going to be made to ONLY use the slow lines, so as not to affect the Intercity services, thus having to fit in around the all-station stoppers from Moorgate?
.

Pretty much a certainty.
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But then it gets more complicated as the stopping patterns aren't always consistent. For example some peak Sutton/Sevenoak services will run fast between St Albans and St Pancras, while others will stop at Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway and West Hampstead Thameslink. The usual off-peak Sutton services stop at all stations while the Sevenoaks services only go as far north as Kentish Town. That's just one example obviously. There are then the various inconsistencies in the Brighton/Bedford services and various services to Kent.

Perhaps they will be made more consistent....
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The one thing I'm interested to know is if, despite all this, they can tighten up the timing of the central section, with signalling changes and faster trains. I'm assuming the remodel of London Bridge is what will help most there as that bit's painful at the best of times. Looking at the journey times, 15 minutes from London Bridge to St Pancras on Thameslink with 3 intermediate stops versus 10 minutes on the Northern line with 4 is a little laughable.

Halving the dwell times takes out nearly 3 mins, then taking out the pathing time via London Bridge another 2. Add in quicker trains with ATO and it's quite an improvement.

 

[Starmill]

I find the DLR to be even worse than LU trains at times, but that could just be an illusion? Let's hope it's not that bad!

 

[jopsuk]

Perhaps they will be made more consistent....

"odd" stopping patterns are often used at peak times to balance out loadings.

 

[southern442]

"odd" stopping patterns are often used at peak times to balance out loadings.

Does this mean that the Brighton-Bedford via Tulse hill services will remain?

 

[transmanche]

"odd" stopping patterns are often used at peak times to balance out loadings.

So on completion of the Thameslink programme, these should disappear?
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Does this mean that the Brighton-Bedford via Tulse hill services will remain?

Do they run that way purely because of peak-time congestion at London Bridge? If so, then once the new layout is completed, they may no longer need to be routed away from London Bridge.

 

[southern442]

So on completion of the Thameslink programme, these should disappear?
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Do they run that way purely because of peak-time congestion at London Bridge? If so, then once the new layout is completed, they may no longer need to be routed away from London Bridge.

No, as they seem to run between 1600-early peak.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does this mean that the Brighton-Bedford via Tulse hill services will remain?

The entire point of the £billions London Bridge rebuild, and the Bermondsey diveunder/flyover works, is to provide for a 16 tph Thameslink service between East Croydon and Blackfriars through London Bridge on a dedicated pair of tracks from just north of New Cross Gate.

So no, they won't normally run through Tulse Hill at all...

 

[tsr]

It's not just ATO which will make things quicker. The (wide!) doors on these new trains can move at an incredible speed, so much so that they have had to be slowed down artificially for one or two reasons, but all in all will help dwell time. Then there are weight savings - basically, fittings have been minimised, hence the lack of plug sockets, tables etc. These will assist with acceleration.

With regards to the door to First Class, there has to be a gap around it to allow emergency smoke extraction to work. The hinge should automatically close it - slowly. It can be locked shut, too, as can two hidden gangway doors, to divide the train up in case of vandalism/if it requires urgent cleaning.

I personally find the Standard Class seating much more comfortable than that in First Class, and to be honest, it feels OK with another person sat next to you. The maximum possible spacing has been required from Siemens, without conflicting with the wheelchair-accessible gangway widths. Legroom is not too brilliant in the "airline-style" areas, but this should be mitigated by the provision of seats with naturally better legroom at the wheelchair areas. Apparently, most comments from visitors have been about the comfort of the seat padding, and so I really hope there will be improvements made to First Class at the very least.

I have been very impressed with the design of the luggage racks - they seem to be well-proportioned and in the right places. I understand the finished products of these may, however, have slight changes. Bearing in mind the passengers from the two airports en-route, as well as St Pancras, finding these & stowing luggage quickly is an absolute priority.

And a word about the grab handles. Due to the design of the ceiling, unfortunately there are limited mounting points for these. I suspect the central "totem" grab rail in the each vestibule may have to receive some additional bars/rails, but other than that, I'm really not sure what can be done.

The onboard CIS system is going to be pretty clever and versatile, and probably very useful for visitors to the capital, in particular. It is not the finished version, as has been stated, and there have been a number of comments which I think may lead to fairly visible changes - including shifting the analogue clock to a digital format, perhaps.

 

[swt_passenger]

And a word about the grab handles. Due to the design of the ceiling, unfortunately there are limited mounting points for these. I suspect the central "totem" grab rail in the each vestibule may have to receive some additional bars/rails, but other than that, I'm really not sure what can be done.

Some of the extra poles that were retro-fitted to the 450/5 HC variants are curved and basically clamp onto the luggage rack. There's probably a few options they could take up without needing the ceiling mount.

This sort of thing: http://www.therailwaycentre.com/News Photo File 2008/450_5_03.jpg

 

[tsr]

Some of the extra poles that were retro-fitted to the 450/5 HC variants are curved and basically clamp onto the luggage rack. There's probably a few options they could take up without needing the ceiling mount.

This sort of thing: http://www.therailwaycentre.com/News Photo File 2008/450_5_03.jpg

Possibly, but the seat-back handles are much bigger than the standard ones in that photo, so there might not be much point in fitting those around the seats.

 

[samuelmorris]

swt_passenger: Yes I obviously did miss that - I read about it last night and wondered what they'd be cutting back to allow that to continue, southeastern services sort of makes sense. Is there any replacement provisional timetable yet? (In terms of tph of course, not actual times).

The 1.5 minute improvement, while not unexpected would be disappointing. The pathing improvement around London Bridge plus, as you say, the dwell times, should improve things. I notice the dwell times in the timetable are currently pretty long in the central section - presumably to allow 'catchup' against the timetable. I wonder if that too will change.
Taking the times it takes an ATO tube line to complete the same distance and number of stops assuming an average 30 second dwell at each stop (that may well be a bit more at peak), then in an 'ideal' scenario (no track junctions, speed restrictions etc) I come out with a figure of just over 7 minutes for London Bridge - St Pancras, versus the current 15.

It's worth pointing out that the only real 'aggressive' ATO outside I think is on the Central line. The Victoria is of course all in tunnel, and the Jubilee decelerates at a greatly reduced pace outside. One wonders whether Thameslink will follow suit here since the latter is a fairly recent system. I don't personally find the DLR ATO very aggressive at all.

 

[tsr]

Average dwell time at Core stations is targeted to be just under 30 seconds, from what I've been told.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is that including peak times? That's pretty impressive if it is, especially for a 12 coach train.

 

[tsr]

Indeed. I haven't heard anything to say there won't be a need to stick to that during the peak. I suggest the theory is that some passengers won't have to decide which train to board if they are just using it as a glorified Tube line through Central London. And given commuters tend to want to board as quickly as possible (which they can with wide doors & aisles), and all wheelchair spaces will remain consistently positioned, you've ironed out another two causes of delays (with respect to regular customers & disabled rail users!).

The other impressive thing is the DOO equipment. The layout and pixel-by-pixel processing of the clarity of images in the cab should hopefully allow drivers to act very quickly on whatever they see. So when the despatch procedure relies on them thoroughly checking the train without any assistance, this should be vital in reducing even very tiny delays.

 

[Class377/5]

Average dwell time at Core stations is targeted to be just under 30 seconds, from what I've been told.

Is that including peak times? That's pretty impressive if it is, especially for a 12 coach train.

90 second with in the platform area (from cab entering platform to rear cab leaving) for 24tph but the system is capable of doing 30tph.

Lets not forget the Victoria Line achieves 32tph in high peak with smaller platforms and less capacity to move people away/to the 8 car trains.

 

[tsr]

90 second with in the platform area (from cab entering platform to rear cab leaving) for 24tph but the system is capable of doing 30tph.

Apologies - I meant the actual time spent stationary is apparently meant to be less than 30 seconds (or 27 seconds, to be precise). Let us know if what you've been told differs from that!

Lets not forget the Victoria Line achieves 32tph in high peak with smaller platforms and less capacity to move people away/to the 8 car trains.

Yup (or is it 33tph?). And it is a tremendously, ah, popular line at some of the key stations. If the TL Core, with its projected frequencies of lengthened trains, consistently reaches those levels of overcrowding throughout, I'll still be quite interested to see how it all copes, even though it is "scaled up"!

 

[Manchester77]

Are the 12 and 8 car 700s to be diagramed onto certain services or will they be pooled as one fleet?

 

[A-driver]

90 second with in the platform area (from cab entering platform to rear cab leaving) for 24tph but the system is capable of doing 30tph.



Lets not forget the Victoria Line achieves 32tph in high peak with smaller platforms and less capacity to move people away/to the 8 car trains.

You can't compare the Thameslink to the Victoria line. The Victoria line is a single corridor with all trains going from Brixton to walthamstow or wherever stopping at all stations en route. So if you stand at kings cross vic line southbound platform you get on the first available train and if it's too full you wait a minute or 2 for the next one. On the Thameslink we are looking at about 5 different northbound calling patterns and possibly more southbound so you have to factor in that peterbourgh commuters will want to get on the their correct train as if they miss it they may have a 20 min wait or so whilst the next few trains head to Bedford, Cambridge, St. Albans and welwyn. Therefore you also have to factor in something which the vic line dosnt have to worry about which is crowding on the platforms from people standing right up against the platform edge so they can be first onto the 4th train due...happens all the time at other similar stations and even with side mounted DOO cameras it still delays dispatch as rather than glancing at screens to check for an empty platform you have to closely look at each image in detail to check that no one is actually touching or trapped in the train. Plus add in the late runners who will run up to the doors and hold them open whilst they find out if this is the correct train or not in the rush hour.

 

[A-driver]

Are the 12 and 8 car 700s to be diagramed onto certain services or will they be pooled as one fleet?

Currently it is planned for the 8 cars to work the shorter distance services as the platform lengths are shorter on the 'metro' routes like welwyn, St. Albans, Maidstone, tattenham or wherever they send them down south. The 12 cars are planned to operate the mainline routes such as Brighton, peterbourgh, Bedford and Cambridge. Exactly how strictly they stick to that depends on how they end up diagramming units once the exact timetable has been decided.

 

[jon0844]

A-driver, with regards to how the passengers will act, that's exactly how I've always imagined it will be like when it's finished because of different service patterns.

And I am still concerned about recovering from bigger delays, like a broken down train, signal problems or someone hit by a train.

 

[southern442]

This has been mentioned before, but what will happen to the sutton loop services?

 

[swt_passenger]

This has been mentioned before, but what will happen to the sutton loop services?

Please see my reply to an earlier query a couple of days ago:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1695071&postcount=266

Basically nothing will happen to the Sutton Loop services, as decided by DfT.

 

[southern442]

Please see my reply to an earlier query a couple of days ago:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1695071&postcount=266

Basically nothing will happen to the Sutton Loop services, as decided by DfT.

So the Sutton loop - St Albans services will remain the same I am assuming.

 

[swt_passenger]

So the Sutton loop - St Albans services will remain the same I am assuming.

I dare say there might be calling pattern changes along the way, north of St Pancras because there may be slightly more services overall, but nothing major seems likely.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apologies - I meant the actual time spent stationary is apparently meant to be less than 30 seconds (or 27 seconds, to be precise). Let us know if what you've been told differs from that!



Yup (or is it 33tph?). And it is a tremendously, ah, popular line at some of the key stations. If the TL Core, with its projected frequencies of lengthened trains, consistently reaches those levels of overcrowding throughout, I'll still be quite interested to see how it all copes, even though it is "scaled up"!

The dwell times required are 60 seconds under normal operation at core stations, 90 seconds at London Bridge. These are to be reduced to 45 sec at times of disruption.

The dwell time is wheels stop to wheels roll, and not the time the doors are open.

Length of train is irrelevant to dwell time, but is very relevant to platform reoccupation time. This is specified as 75 seconds under ATO, ie from wheels rolling for one service to wheels stop for the next.

Note that under the current signalling and with 319s both the required dwell times and reoccupation can be achieved. Although only if not many people are boarding / alighting and the driver is on the last trip of a shift before a long weekend.


The Vic line has the benefit of shorter trains, and a 50?mph speed limit, which means platform reoccupation is much shorter. Also nearly half the length of train is doors, which helps deliver 25 sec dwells.
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A-driver, with regards to how the passengers will act, that's exactly how I've always imagined it will be like when it's finished because of different service patterns.

Exactly. So the CIS and operation of the station will be configured such that passengers are in absolutely no doubt which train is going where. Although there are always people who will be oblivious no matter how many / how big the signs are and how good the announcements.

 

[Aictos]

Therefore you also have to factor in something which the vic line dosnt have to worry about which is crowding on the platforms from people standing right up against the platform edge so they can be first onto the 4th train due...

I'm sorry to be argumentative fella but every time I've had to travel in the peak in and around London, every platform has people crowding right up to the doors wanting to be the first on and it's not just London that's like this Stevenage is terrible for this too.

So saying the Vic doesn't have to deal with platform overcrowding is wrong in my view, it may be quieter off peak but in the peak it's certainly busy!