TfW withdrawals (Now just 150/158s to go)

[Caaardiff]

Silly question but given what has been said above, how long do we have for new rolling stock to enter service before serious timetable reductions have to be made?

E.g. let's assume the new tram trains are further delayed (there was a comment in another thread about them not being out on tests for a whole because of wheel issues). If the 150s are being withdrawn regardless then what happens?

It all depends on which 150's have life left in them. Some may have a lot more mileage left in them than others.

There's 24 756's, 12 231's and 34 150's. So if it came to it the Flirts can cover for the 150 replacements without needing the 398's. It will mean that 197's will remain on Maesteg/Ebbw Vale services which will mean the plans of 4-5 car on all Manchesters may be pushed back.

It's clear to see it's been a bad week for unit availability, but it's not as bad as some are making out. The sooner 756's are in the service, the better.

 

[43096]

I'm not missing the point at all. You are simply looking at this from a factual point of view of how the railway currently operates, which is basically by means of keeping costs low, ticket prices high and making rail travel as uncomfortable for passengers as is possible.

The point that you are actually missing is that with better planning, provision and not having ROSCO's becoming very rich from leasing trains at the expense of the TOCs and the public purse, we could easily be in a position where we can keep enough stock rolling for enough time to enable a one in, one out system. Any business in the world can become more efficient by looking at their inefficiencies and finding a solution that makes the experience of dealing with them better for their customers.

I'm purely looking at this from a passenger perspective and passengers don't care why trains are being withdrawn if there is no replacement stock and their service capacity is either reduced or the service canned. As far as pax are concerned, the railway should do everything it can to provide the level of capacity required on each route and that level should always be maintained and anyone arguing against that is giving the railway industry a "get out of jail free" card to play with whenever this doesn't happen

You are missing the point, I'm afraid. All the TfW fleet plan should have been implemented by now, so the 150s should have gone before now. They have instead used up their remaining time to C6 overhaul as cover for late deployment of the new fleets - so the original plan was something like a one in, one out policy as you suggest. They've managed to use up all their contingency to their next overhaul and given the issue around the 150's bodies and lack of future lease opportunities, it is entirely understandable why the owner belives there is no commercial case for doing so, and the operator would also be unprepared to fund the work.

You also cannot just defer overhauls - they involve overhaul of safety critical equipment.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It all depends on which 150's have life left in them. Some may have a lot more mileage left in them than others.

There's 24 756's, 12 231's and 34 150's. So if it came to it the Flirts can cover for the 150 replacements without needing the 398's. It will mean that 197's will remain on Maesteg/Ebbw Vale services which will mean the plans of 4-5 car on all Manchesters may be pushed back.

It's clear to see it's been a bad week for unit availability, but it's not as bad as some are making out. The sooner 756's are in the service, the better.

If things get really dire, the 158’s whilst also struggling, have more life left in them and I think might be getting C6 overhauls (don’t quote me on that though) but certainly the leases have been extended and will be around at least 12 more months. Then the Cambrian 197’s could be brought in on the rest of the network if capacity can be found to stable and maintain them whilst 158’s continue on the Cambrian. But from what I hear, that’s not going to happen as it stands.

 

[Cardiff123]

Presumably away from TfW, the 150s at GWR and Northern are getting C6 overhauls as (amazingly) there are no immediate plans for replacement of the Northern & GWR 150 fleets?

 

[Anonymous10]

But fact is reality. Things go wrong, as they have this week. And don't get me wrong, TFW have got it wrong every couple of weeks since they took on the franchise. There's always something going wrong. BUT, the plans in place were the plans in place. From the original franchise plans the entire new fleet, including 398's, should've been in service by now.

If I look at it from a passenger perspective then i'd like a 5 car IET every ten minutes going up each Valley and they all run to London. But i'm not that detached from reality.

What you're basically suggesting is TFW spending however much it would cost (hundreds of thousands? millions?) to get knackered, corroding nearly 40 year old stock through an exam that takes many weeks just to tide over for the next few months.
Not to mention the lack of anywhere to store them.

In fact some GWR units took upwards of 6 months.

 

[Lurcheroo]

In fact some GWR units took upwards of 6 months.

As I alluded to in post #1066 I think the GWR ones were much worse than originally thought and took much longer and cost more than expected, which may well have influenced why the lease company has no interest in doing the TFW ones.

 

[diligentdave]

If things get really dire, the 158’s whilst also struggling, have more life left in them and I think might be getting C6 overhauls (don’t quote me on that though) but certainly the leases have been extended and will be around at least 12 more months. Then the Cambrian 197’s could be brought in on the rest of the network if capacity can be found to stable and maintain them whilst 158’s continue on the Cambrian. But from what I hear, that’s not going to happen as it stands.

158's are easier to overhaul as they have aluminium body shells rather than steel like the 150's.

Presumably away from TfW, the 150s at GWR and Northern are getting C6 overhauls as (amazingly) there are no immediate plans for replacement of the Northern & GWR 150 fleets?

The Northern Class 150's for both Angel and Porterbrook are indeed going through C6 programs but they are having large sections of solebar replaced (4 metre lengths at a time in some places) and floors in what is now a very well organised process but it still takes upto 90 days per unit on a good unit.

 

[JakeMurphy]

Had a rumour 150282 is withdrawn. Is this true ?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Had a rumour 150282 is withdrawn. Is this true ?

Not sure but 150240 was taken out of service today as it had a corroded floor . I wonder if we will see it back again.

 

[Cambrian359]

Not sure but 150240 was taken out of service today as it had a corroded floor . I wonder if we will see it back again.

Is this something that’s likely to spark a mass emergency withdrawal until they are all checked over? Or is it something they find occasionally and deal with as and when discovered?

 

[Spaceship323]

Had a rumour 150282 is withdrawn. Is this true ?

Only 150230 and 150250 are due to be withdrawn before Christmas so unless it's had a major failure then I would think not

 

[Lurcheroo]

Is this something that’s likely to spark a mass emergency withdrawal until they are all checked over? Or is it something they find occasionally and deal with as and when discovered?

No idea in honesty.

 

[Anonymous10]

Not sure but 150240 was taken out of service today as it had a corroded floor . I wonder if we will see it back again.

If so that'll mean it was taken out when working the 1540 from Bridgend.

 

[Cardiff123]

TfW must be struggling for 150s and 231s today.
Penarth has been single 153s all day, apart from a few double this morning, and there's even double 153s on Rhymney - Barry - Bridgend.

If anymore 150s develop irreparable faults beyond the ones due to leave because of not getting the C6 overhauls, then TfW could be seriously in trouble on Valleys services for the rest of this year

 

[Lurcheroo]

TfW must be struggling for 150s and 231s today.
Penarth has been single 153s all day, apart from a few double this morning, and there's even double 153s on Rhymney - Barry - Bridgend.

If anymore 150s develop irreparable faults beyond the ones not getting the planned C6 overhauls then TfW could be seriously in trouble on Valleys services for the rest of this year

6 out of 7 231 diagrams are covered by 231’s today. The other is covered by a 150.

The situation is not good across the board and I see no sign of major improvement until the 756’s are in service.

 

[Cardiff123]

6 out of 7 231 diagrams are covered by 231’s today. The other is covered by a 150.

The situation is not good across the board and I see no sign of major improvement until the 756’s are in service.

It's easy to argue that Penarth - Coryton/ Caerphilly can make do with single 153s, but it won't stop the inevitable complaints
It does raise the question whether the June TT change on the Valleys should've been delayed until December when there was more chance of 756s being ready for passenger service

 

[Jez]

TfW must be struggling for 150s and 231s today.
Penarth has been single 153s all day, apart from a few double this morning, and there's even double 153s on Rhymney - Barry - Bridgend.

If anymore 150s develop irreparable faults beyond the ones due to leave because of not getting the C6 overhauls, then TfW could be seriously in trouble on Valleys services for the rest of this year

Does anyone know how many pairs of 153s are required for the Valley Lines/Cardiff Local services such as Penarth, Vale of Glamorgan, Coryton/City Line etc. I know single 153s often turn up on Ebbw Vale to Newport too but im sure the LTP diagrams show 150s doing Ebbw Vale-Newport unless thats now changed.

I know a good number of 153s are needed for the HOWL and the Crewe stopper so there cant be that many left with only 24 (12 if doubled up)

 

[BillStampy]

150227 is very much still sat on Canton, despite me being told it left for Newport, saw it today sitting on the line closest to the mainline and brickyard on Canton, with two of it's headlights on the entire day..

 

[Lurcheroo]

150227 is very much still sat on Canton, despite me being told it left for Newport, saw it today sitting on the line closest to the mainline and brickyard on Canton, with two of it's headlights on the entire day..

2 white lights (one either side) will just be the marker lights and would be unusual for it to be next like that. The instruction is to leave tail lights illuminated on both ends when stabling.

 

[BillStampy]

2 white lights (one either side) will just be the marker lights and would be unusual for it to be next like that. The instruction is to leave tail lights illuminated on both ends when stabling.

Oh yes of course, my mistake. Unsure if the marker lights on both sides were on, certainly wasn't the tail lights though.

 

[Western 52]

Oh yes of course, my mistake. Unsure if the marker lights on both sides were on, certainly wasn't the tail lights though.

I passed 150227 in the dark earlier this evening, and internal lights were also on in one coach.

 

[D365]

Is this something that’s likely to spark a mass emergency withdrawal until they are all checked over? Or is it something they find occasionally and deal with as and when discovered?

No idea in honesty.

It’s well known that the remaining Mk3-derived vehicles are on their last legs. So I suspect the latter.

 

[Bikeman78]

As far as I'm aware they did have that plan, but have been let down by manufacturers and other companies not delivering contracted products on time, and it was said elsewhere (not sure if on this thread) that the 150s needed a once-in-every-10-years exam in order to continue running which was absolutely not economical.

It's a shame that they cannot do checks on the 150s that have passed their C6 dates to check if they are still safe to run. Repeat those checks at frequent intervals, e.g. once per week or once per month. It's bizarre that a train is deemed safe to run one day but not the next. Clearly the level of deterioration over 10 years will vary significantly from one unit to the next.

 

[D365]

It's a shame that they cannot do checks on the 150s that have passed their C6 dates to check if they are still safe to run. Repeat those checks at frequent intervals, e.g. once per week or once per month.

are you suggesting that this doesn’t currently happen?

 

[Western 52]

Is there an insurance issue running them past their C6 date?

 

[Rhydgaled]

What you're basically suggesting is TFW spending however much it would cost (hundreds of thousands? millions?) to get knackered, corroding nearly 40 year old stock through an exam that takes many weeks just to tide over for the next few months.

What does the exam actually involve and is it something that can be replaced by increased day-to-day inspections of certain areas?

6 out of 7 231 diagrams are covered by 231’s today. The other is covered by a 150.

Does this mean the 231s are still encountering 'teething troubles' (only 6 out of 11 units working seems a bit on the low side) or is it normal for fleets of any age to fail to cover all their booked diagrams?

 

[Caaardiff]

What does the exam actually involve and is it something that can be replaced by increased day-to-day inspections of certain areas?

I'm not sure exactly, but we're talking overhaul levels. Not just checks. It's rated on mileage. Once the mileage is used, that's it.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What does the exam actually involve and is it something that can be replaced by increased day-to-day inspections of certain areas?

As said by someone experienced earlier on the thread:

The Northern Class 150's for both Angel and Porterbrook are indeed going through C6 programs but they are having large sections of solebar replaced (4 metre lengths at a time in some places) and floors in what is now a very well organised process but it still takes upto 90 days per unit on a good unit

 

[skyhigh]

It's a shame that they cannot do checks on the 150s that have passed their C6 dates to check if they are still safe to run. Repeat those checks at frequent intervals, e.g. once per week or once per month. It's bizarre that a train is deemed safe to run one day but not the next. Clearly the level of deterioration over 10 years will vary significantly from one unit to the next.

That can and does happen - C6 extensions can be carried out, it requires a survey of the vehicle. There will be a point however where nobody will agree to sign another extension without the work being completed.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm not sure exactly, but we're talking overhaul levels. Not just checks. It's rated on mileage. Once the mileage is used, that's it.

That is not true. C4 are mileage based. C6 are based on dates.