TfW Request Stop Trial

[Revilo]

If that’s what is getting in the way of literally stopping in the middle of nowhere to accommodate a (presumably ambulant) customer’s request then that’s a bit mad.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==


It means trains can go faster through request stops where nobody is waiting to board or alight, as they won’t have to slow down to a crawl just in case. It’s improving reliability and speed, what’s not to like?

What’s not to like is the cost, both for installation and ongoing maintenance. Surely there are more important things to spend taxpayers money on?

 

[AlterEgo]

What’s not to like is the cost, both for installation and ongoing maintenance. Surely there are more important things to spend taxpayers money on?

How much is it costing?

 

[SuspectUsual]

It means trains can go faster through request stops where nobody is waiting to board or alight, as they won’t have to slow down to a crawl just in case. It’s improving reliability and speed, what’s not to like?

Which is true, and it could be useful for service recovery, but obviously it can’t do anything for the base timetable as there has to be a worst case assumption that every train will have to stop at every station

 

[AlterEgo]

Which is true, and it could be useful for service recovery, but obviously it can’t do anything for the base timetable as there has to be a worst case assumption that every train will have to stop at every station

A good question to ask is - why? How often does this happen? And where there are no conflicts on a single line (see the Heart of Wales for an example), why are we building in 30 seconds of dwell at each request stop?

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Ask a daft question time...
I recently watched a programme on people who live in remote parts of Canada and use a request stop method for getting on and off trains where the train stops at seemingly random points along the track where people and goods get on/off at the trackside - no station no platform just apparently random bits along the railroad tracks.
Could a similar system operate in the UK for request stops? There appear to be certain network rail access points onto the tracks that could be used for such purposes and could add some flexibility at a very low cost to rail access/travel

The centre door on the GWR autocoaches and railmotors had fold out steps that were designed for boarding from ground level halts.
See https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/zrailmotor93/features/features.html#steps for an example from the Didcot railmotor.

I'm sure I read somewhere that these trains could be flagged down at crossings and other access points, though whether this was an official or unofficial arrangement I'm not sure.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I don’t really understand what problem is this trying to solve. There surely must be more pressing uses for the budget?!

It means trains can go faster through request stops where nobody is waiting to board or alight, as they won’t have to slow down to a crawl just in case. It’s improving reliability and speed, what’s not to like?

Additionally it also reduces fuel consumption, brake wear and general stress and strain put on the units.

Braking down from 60mph to about 15mph to then accelerate back up to 60mph is rather wasteful when no one wants to get on or off.

I think what will really tell the story is some data on how many times a day a service doesn’t stop at requests stops.

When you consider the number of request stops On TFW’s network and the number of services calling at them each day, I would think that fuel savings alone would add up to be quiet substantial.

Just as an example, there are 15 request stops on the Cambrian coast line and there are 16 services a day on the line, making a total of 240 opportunities each day, to not stop at a request stop.

If we exclude Sundays, that makes about 74,880 potential request stops a year just on the Cambrian line.

 

[Western 52]

Not sure if this is answered above anywhere, but if trains will pass request stops at line speed if nobody has requested the stop, what happens for those who get to the station on time, but maybe too late for the train to get sufficient notice when they press the request button? Maybe advertise the stop time a couple of minutes before the WTT time?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Not sure if this is answered above anywhere, but if trains will pass request stops at line speed if nobody has requested the stop, what happens for those who get to the station on time, but maybe too late for the train to get sufficient notice when they press the request button? Maybe advertise the stop time a couple of minutes before the WTT time?

Not sure in truth. I wonder how Scotrail do it with theirs

 

[ruaival]

All this talk of request buttons above is much more advanced than Heart of Wales line was for me growing up - it was "stick your arm out" once you saw the train approaching.

Indeed the TfW website currently says in its faq pages

"I need to get on at a request stop
As the train approaches the station, you’ll need to signal to the driver that you’d like the train to stop by raising your hand. Don’t worry, the train will approach request stops at a low speed to give the driver plenty of time to see you and bring the train safely to a halt."

 

[Belperpete]

All this talk of request buttons above is much more advanced than Heart of Wales line was for me growing up - it was "stick your arm out" once you saw the train approaching.

Indeed the TfW website currently says in its faq pages

"I need to get on at a request stop
As the train approaches the station, you’ll need to signal to the driver that you’d like the train to stop by raising your hand. Don’t worry, the train will approach request stops at a low speed to give the driver plenty of time to see you and bring the train safely to a halt."

It still is a case of "stick your arm out" for those using the line now - that is what this trial is hoping to end.

 

[williamn]

Not sure if this is answered above anywhere, but if trains will pass request stops at line speed if nobody has requested the stop, what happens for those who get to the station on time, but maybe too late for the train to get sufficient notice when they press the request button? Maybe advertise the stop time a couple of minutes before the WTT time?

Interesting point. Presumably the trains won’t actually run through at line speed as it’s perfectly possibly someone will press the button 30 seconds before the train arrives.

 

[aar0]

Presumably the trains won’t actually run through at line speed

Although on the HoWL line speed isn’t huge!

 

[Western 52]

Although on the HoWL line speed isn’t huge!

Generally 60mph max, but slower in many places. There are also level crossings and occupation crossings near some stations, where very low speed restrictions apply.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Interesting point. Presumably the trains won’t actually run through at line speed as it’s perfectly possibly someone will press the button 30 seconds before the train arrives.

Well that is the point of the system. Which is why there needs to be someway to determine a ‘cut off’.
You can easily blast through certain request stops multiple minutes early if you’re not careful with your timings and speed on the Cambrian coast.

Generally 60mph max, but slower in many places. There are also level crossings and occupation crossings near some stations, where very low speed restrictions apply.

90Kph (55mph) max on the Cambrian coast too, similarly plenty of restrictions so not many places you could be doing that through request stops.
75mph through the request stops in Anglesey and 90mph through the request stops between Shrewsbury and Crewe.

 

[Western 52]

I think it's around 75mph through Clunderwen. A lot lower at Johnston and for the request stops on the Pembroke line.

 

[williamn]

So given that you won’t be able to go at the line speed in case of a last minute request, and that in many cases the line speed is pretty low, it brings me back to not understanding what the point of this exercise is.

 

[Western 52]

So given that you won’t be able to go at the line speed in case of a last minute request, and that in many cases the line speed is pretty low, it brings me back to not understanding what the point of this exercise is.

Yes, it seems there are not many locations where this system would be worthwhile.

 

[DelW]

So given that you won’t be able to go at the line speed in case of a last minute request, and that in many cases the line speed is pretty low, it brings me back to not understanding what the point of this exercise is.

Since it's a trial at this stage, maybe it's to find out what the actual, real-world costs and benefits are, and to use that data to decide whether or not it's worthwhile to develop and install such a system more widely?

Which seems eminently sensible to me.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think it's around 75mph through Clunderwen. A lot lower at Johnston and for the request stops on the Pembroke line.

Ahh interesting ! I’m not really familiar with that end of things.
Is there a line down there that has a good number of request stops on ?

So given that you won’t be able to go at the line speed in case of a last minute request, and that in many cases the line speed is pretty low, it brings me back to not understanding what the point of this exercise is.

Well, again, this is the point, the system should be setup in such a way that will allow the train to continue as if it is not stopping at the station unless the button is pressed (and no one wants to get off) if you can’t reach line speed before the stop then you would just continue accelerating instead of accelerating, braking down to 15mph then accelerating again.

It works for scotrail so the concept is proven.
But their system uses the RETB system where as this trial is about getting it working using the GSMR system.

 

[Railsigns]

So given that you won’t be able to go at the line speed in case of a last minute request, and that in many cases the line speed is pretty low, it brings me back to not understanding what the point of this exercise is.

I think this is not a correct assumption. The request-to-stop system on the Far North Line operates on the principle that the window for requesting a train to stop closes once the train is beyond the point where the driver must decide whether or not to start braking to stop at the station.

Anyone who turns up at a station at the last minute risks missing their train. This is especially true at a request stop station where passengers have to take action to stop the train, irrespective of the method used, because they need to be there before the train arrives.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think this is not a correct assumption. The request-to-stop system on the Far North Line operates on the principle that the window for requesting a train to stop closes once the train is beyond the point where the driver must decide whether or not to start braking to stop at the station.

Ahh good to know that’s how it works. I think I said earlier in the thread somewhere but there would likely need to be something (such as a treadle) set at the service braking distance for the request stop that once activated the system would no longer allow someone at the station to ask the train to stop.

I was always told that Service braking distance is set for ‘the heaviest train with the ****est brakes’ at line speed, so there are potentially places where it could be set later, as on the Cambrian for example, you know there will only be 158’s (likely 197’s by the time this could be in place) that will call at request stops, so could be set based on their braking capabilities.

 

[30907]

Anyone who turns up at a station at the last minute risks missing their train. This is especially true at a request stop station where passengers have to take action to stop the train, irrespective of the method used, because they need to be there before the train arrives.

Worth noting, too, that on the Far North and elsewhere, the public time at request stops is a minute before the working time.

 

[Railsigns]

I think I said earlier in the thread somewhere but there would likely need to be something (such as a treadle) set at the service braking distance for the request stop that once activated the system would no longer allow someone at the station to ask the train to stop.

The train's location is continuously monitored by an on-board GPS receiver. When approaching a request stop, it radios the request stop controller with a request to send the request stop button status for that station.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The train's location is continuously monitored by an on-board GPS receiver. When approaching a request stop, it radios the request stop controller with a request to send the request stop button status for that station.

Ahh ok that’s interesting!
Not sure if you can answer or not but how accurate is the GPS ? Some stops are fairly close on the Cambrian coast.

 

[Railsigns]

The Far North Line has two request stops less than half a mile apart (Culrain and Invershin). The request to stop system treats them as one station on the driver's display, so the train will stop at neither or both stations as the case may be (assuming nobody wants off at either station).

 

[Tester]

The Far North Line has two request stops less than half a mile apart (Culrain and Invershin). The request to stop system treats them as one station on the driver's display, so the train will stop at neither or both stations as the case may be (assuming nobody wants off at either station).

That is interesting - I didn't know that.

I have actually used both since the system was commissioned.

I got off a southbound train at Invershin (requested on board) and walked across the bridge to Culrain to pick up the northbound. The two trains crossed at Ardgay so it worked well.

I did press at Culrain, but I don't know for sure that the system did its job as I had mentioned to the southbound guard what I was doing and she said that she would tell her colleague, who indeed was expecting me.

With hindsight, it would have been interesting to note whether we stopped, for no apparent reason, at Invershin on the way back!