The franchise is Wales and Borders not just Wales so therefore its right TFW should run the Cardiff-Manchester. Even if they didnt it would more likely be Crosscountry rather than TransPennine Express. Cardiff Central would be miles away from where TransPennine operate. They dont even run in the Crewe area.
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TfW Overcrowding
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craigybagel
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What is?
Where would TPE get the stock from to operate it? And Train crew? And how would any of that be any different to what's offered now?
And what impact would that have on the changes TfW are introducing within the next year or two?
I dont understand the logic behind that suggestion.
Runningaround
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Good idea when a TFW service is stuck in Hereford due to traincrew shortage the TPE driver can stay on spare in the mess room as he no longer works for TFW. Splitting the workforce into ever more companies and therefore it's flexibility can only benefit the passengers.
I believe schools in England on TFW only routes are going to follow the Welsh School term dates as to avoid the variations between Knighton and Ludlow and confusing ticket checkers when ones off and the others on and whether the travel pass is valid or not on that day.
Dai Corner
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Journeycheck is currently showing 116 cancellations and 63 alterations (mostly partial cancellation, starting or finishing short).
Anyone hoping to go to Tenby, for example, will have to make do with just over an hour there )1104-1228) as there only one return service on the Pembroke Dock branch. Just time for a quick paddle, fish & chips and an ice cream I suppose!
Anyone hoping to go to Tenby, for example, will have to make do with just over an hour there )1104-1228) as there only one return service on the Pembroke Dock branch. Just time for a quick paddle, fish & chips and an ice cream I suppose!
185
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I feel Scarborough Cliff Lift ltd, or the station buffet at Huddersfield could be better solutions than what was suggested above. Whilst I'm all for North / Mid Wales and the borders de-Cardiffying it's badly run railways, using TPE would result in nothing actually running at all, bar the odd dog-box here and there.
Andy Pacer
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I did a Coasts and Peaks in March and didn't have issues with Welsh overcrowding. There were a few delays though, but that's fairly inevitable with the services that follow each other fairly closely with limited passing opportunities.
And I managed a few Mk4 trips as well.
Go for it
Cardiff-Holyheads seem to be a mix of 158s and 175s today with a few four car formations. There is a 150 working with a 158 on the 18:09 Llanelli to Chester, and a single 153 working 21:15 Cardiff to Chester, if RTT is anything to go by, but seems to have done better in allocations than the Manchester-South Wales services today.
Mostly being strengthened as they pass an opportunity, one is becoming 2x 150 at Crewe, a 153 added at Carmarthen to one and another 150 swapping to Canton to be replaced by a 153+158, a 2 car 175 also being strengthened to 4 car at Cardiff.
Runningaround
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And as they will all be late I hope every passenger is encouraged to claim for the delays and specifically if they could not board. If they are returning in the numbers they went on Friday they'll be rammed to.
So by not claiming you are effectively letting them off into cramming as many fares onto an inadequate service.
So by not claiming you are effectively letting them off into cramming as many fares onto an inadequate service.
Good that they are being strengthened where possible. At least a 3 carriage is required on most. Still wouldn't fancy making the entire journey on a 150 but better than no train at all.
Runningaround
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Which could well be what some will get. As the packed trains will be heading in the opposite direction it's quite likely that a too full train to get on and if you do is too slow to meet the last connection home its not inconceivable that you will get on ''no train''.
During my trips in the last month (various routes, days & times) the one which has consistantly been packed is the Holyhead-Birmingham, thankfully I have mostly used it between Wrexham & Chester so don't mind standing, there are always hoardes of people getting on & off at Chester on this service. The most recent time (11:26 at Chester) arrived from Holyhead consisting of a 158 and two 153s, much faff occured as the two 153s were detached with all the exisiting passengers moved into the 158 as well as all the new passengers, so went onwards as a single 158, then I think it was joined with another 158 at Shrewsbury onwards to Birmingham.
I have seen how peak services cause wastage outside of the peak. The 09:35 from Manchester Airport is formed of a 3 car & 2 car 175 (capacity much needed towards Manchester in the morning peak before hand) but then this service heads to Holyhead with the 2 car 175 locked out of use as its detached at Chester, an unfortunate waste
I have seen how peak services cause wastage outside of the peak. The 09:35 from Manchester Airport is formed of a 3 car & 2 car 175 (capacity much needed towards Manchester in the morning peak before hand) but then this service heads to Holyhead with the 2 car 175 locked out of use as its detached at Chester, an unfortunate waste
These problems will be hopefully solved in the future with the 197s and there ASDO, i wish tfw / dft order had been mostly 3 & 4 car sets working in multiple. Instead of 2 or 3 cars working in multiple over these routes, 4 car set really struggle at busy time now & adding just 1 extra car which has less seats doesn't future proof the fleet.
The dft just don't understand what goes on outside London it seems, they specified the 2 & 3 car order ive been told by management. The 197s have less seats and less toilets but offer a better customer experience.
Rich McLean
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Has that happened before?I can think of something worse than a 2 coach 150...
A single 153 on Manchester - Milford services
Remember several years ago when ATW were still running the service I had a single 153 bound for Manchester at Neath however I'm sure it was swapped for something more suitable at Cardiff.
I've done Cardiff - Crewe on a crowded 150.
Far better than waiting another hour for a train that would have been overcrowded (since it would have been carrying two trainloads).
62484GlenLyon
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How does having less of both seats and toilets offer a better customer experience? AFAIAC these two things are the paramount factors in giving me a good customer experience. Everything else is of secondary importance.
As long as the train you're on has a working toilet and you can sit down, I guess is what was implied!
Whoever the operator / whatever the brand overcrowding on the route and across to the coast has been a problem for years.
Aside from London Underground when central London lines have been closed the most overcrowded train I have even been on was what should have been a Birmingham-Holyhead ( or if not Bangor ) service in 2014. Starting from Birmingham International as a 2x 2-car 158 set combined Holyhead and Aberystwyth service most seats were taken from New Street then to Shrewsbury overall more joined than left so plenty standing. At Shrewsbury the set for Aberystwyth split. Now every possible space used for standing including the toilet. Plenty were left on the platform. Departure inevitably was late then every station a long stop for those who wanted to get off to make their way to a door and any wanting to join try and squeeze on. I left at Wrexham. Looking later at RTT the service was terminated at Chester. There was an extra Chester-Wrexham-Chester so logically the set was used for this. How passengers for stations Chester - Holyhead ( or Bangor ) completed their journey I have no idea. Likewise how the booked return from Holyhead ( or Bangor ) was covered / how passengers reached Chester.
Years before I was at Shrewsbury on a West Midlands Day Ranger. The platform for the next Aberystwyth service was heaving. I don't know what actually ran but a rake of stock was needed not even a 4-car DMU. Seeing this has totally put me off a day trip to Aberystwyth ever since.
As discussed elsewhere e.g. here the number of coaches retained and only used a few times a year by the Beeching era was unsustainable. However not being able to significantly increase capacity at certain times equally is a failure. Between peak summer, sports and other events there ought to be enough ticket sales to more than cover costs, again discussed on other threads.
185143
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There was a service worked by a single 153 in Lockdown 1!*I can think of something worse than a 2 coach 150...
A single 153 on Manchester - Milford services
*Only worked Shrewsbury-Manchester and back as the original unit failed so the train was restarted using the spare Heart of Wales dogbox to Manchester and back to keep things moving for the essential key workers and anyone else who dared step foot on a TfW service. It was swapped for something more appropriate at Shrewsbury.
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I went to Aberystwyth the other day. 2 car 158 with no working bogs. Standing room only until Caersws, but not uncomfortably so. I was stood near the trolley and had a nice chat with the steward, or whatever TFW call them, and braved a couple of cans from said trolley. A toilet stop was made at Machynlleth, I've had far worse journeys in fairness.
Anonymous10
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150s on a sunday is actually quite normal
As the 197s will mostly be in multiple as I said in my post, they have ASDO so they can easily work on short platforms. They have far better customer information systems, big screens displaying the station stops with clear announcements.
They have air con that works in the summer and heating that actually works in the winter, unlike the tfw sprinters.
You can get real time information on seat availability in real time on the app and they are faster plus more environmentally friendly powerpacks.
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You want to see overcrowding, just go any station around North Wales today. Every service is delayed due to the usual overcrowding issues !
The problem on the TfW network is that generally, the service levels are too infrequent and passengers will not want to wait an hour (or longer) for the next train, that may well be just as busy, so will just try and pile on which causes delays.
I also question the number of Advance Purchase tickets that TfW have available - Last time I made a long distance journey with them from Wilmslow to Newport, it was showing AP was available the day before travelling on the Sunday which I booked - then on arrival at Wilmslow, a 2-car 175 turned up completely wedged. I wonder if they've effectively got the maximum capacity of the train available for AP with no consideration for walk-up passengers? Either way, it sounds like they're not managing demand very well.
Just throwing new trains at routes probably isn't going to be the answer in all cases... 4 car 197s due to replace 4 car 158s on the Cambrian lines will not be an improvement in capacity, though running the additional services through to Aberystwyth should help, and I think they were looking to run additional services between Tywyn and Pwllheli. I wonder if demand will just swallow up capacity if this happens though, as doubling the frequency will encourage more travel.
I also question the number of Advance Purchase tickets that TfW have available - Last time I made a long distance journey with them from Wilmslow to Newport, it was showing AP was available the day before travelling on the Sunday which I booked - then on arrival at Wilmslow, a 2-car 175 turned up completely wedged. I wonder if they've effectively got the maximum capacity of the train available for AP with no consideration for walk-up passengers? Either way, it sounds like they're not managing demand very well.
Just throwing new trains at routes probably isn't going to be the answer in all cases... 4 car 197s due to replace 4 car 158s on the Cambrian lines will not be an improvement in capacity, though running the additional services through to Aberystwyth should help, and I think they were looking to run additional services between Tywyn and Pwllheli. I wonder if demand will just swallow up capacity if this happens though, as doubling the frequency will encourage more travel.
Tfw are planning extra capacity on most routes and more frequent services, the cambrian route will take longer to introduce as the 197s have next generation ECTS (ertms) signalling on board.
The 158s will be on that route longer than anywhere else due to the ectms but they will get more frequency eventually.
The wales and borders routes need improvements in signalling to increase frequency on most routes and all of this take time .
What tfw need is avanti to increase there frequency on the n Wales coast, plus stopping at more stations will take the pressure off tfws busy services.
A four car 158 has significantly more seating than a four car 197. The Cambrian Mainline will probably be fine given the extra diagrams required to run an all day hourly service to Aberystwyth for the first time. The Coast however will be in some trouble as even with a 158 there aren't enough seats at certain times. I can understand the issue though because it's a five and a half hour round trip between Machynlleth and Pwllheli which makes it very resource-intensive to double up, despite having very low yield custom. Indeed often the issue is the numbers on the train between Barmouth and Fairbourne! At least for people making that journey a 197 will offer significantly more standing space.
I remember once getting a single 153 between Crewe and Cardiff think it was the last service on a Saturday night 2030 from Manchester. The 3 car 175 was replaced by a single 153 at Crewe so there was obviously a fault with the 175. This is going back around 12 years now.
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I don't think there is any limit on advances. It used to be once a certain number sold at a set price the price would go to the next price band and so on until it was just the off peak returns available. Now advances seem to be avaliable 6 weeks advance up to the day before on routes which sell them. I could be wrong though and just lucky for the dates I've looked at. Seems to be plenty of advance tickets for each route.
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On a Sunday yes but there are several today on a Bank Holiday Monday which should be an almost normal service level and allocation of units ?
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I think you have hit the nail on the head there. There are simply too many people wanting to travel for what capacity is available the majority of the time and especially on the main routes Manchester to South Wales, North Wales coast and coastal areas such as Tenby and the Cambrian in Peak holiday times
I don't think there is any limit on advances. It used to be once a certain number sold at a set price the price would go to the next price band and so on until it was just the off peak returns available. Now advances seem to be avaliable 6 weeks advance up to the day before on routes which sell them. I could be wrong though and just lucky for the dates I've looked at. Seems to be plenty of advance tickets for each route.
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A big part of the tfw overcrowding on the Marches is the huge amount of passengers who now travel to the South West changing at Newport now the xc route is no longer running to Bristol. Its noticeable how the trains empty out at Newport for this connection.
At least tfw are trying to increase capacity on there busy routes, atw had a non growth franchise fir nearly 20 years. in an ideal world tfw would have spare units all over the network to increase capacity at busy times, this costs a huge amount to have unfortunately as you would need drivers available to shunt etc
Tfw have bought the extra Mk4s from the failed GC venture to add capacity on the s Wales to Manchester route. Maybe getting extra Mk4s could be an option for other routes. I know they have an option to get more 197s if needed in the future.
The trouble all of this takes time and this year there's not much extra tfw cab do to increase capacity, keeping the Mk4s running as much as possible & get them out at weekends instead of idling in sidings !
Tfw have bought the extra Mk4s from the failed GC venture to add capacity on the s Wales to Manchester route. Maybe getting extra Mk4s could be an option for other routes. I know they have an option to get more 197s if needed in the future.
The trouble all of this takes time and this year there's not much extra tfw cab do to increase capacity, keeping the Mk4s running as much as possible & get them out at weekends instead of idling in sidings !
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