TfW Overcrowding

[L401CJF]

Releasing each door independently on Sprinters has been part of our company specific instructions elsewhere for years, it's at the guard's discretion whether they open one door or go down to do all of them - though you are meant to start with the front one where possible.

Transport for Wales also encourage the conductor to do this at local door only stations if its exceptionally busy where possible.

 

[Runningaround]

I think there was only a comparatively short couple of years window of 170s before the Central depot at Shrewsbury was broken up anyway - they didn't particularly like the slogs along the Mid Wales mainline - that being said in that era neither did the 158s!

The 170s are staying around a bit longer in Wales now but they're now planned to depart from January next year onwards which means it seems there's little mileage in moving them.

A time when CT and W&B worked together its CT drivers/guards to Aber. Just think how handy it would be when both have near enough identical trains running Birmingham - Shrewsbury? A spare WMT driver popping a TFW train to New St when the TFW driver is ill for example.
I don't ultimately blame TFW as they are now for the overcrowding and general problems found, it's the rail industry since privatisation it's a tangled mess with all the parts coming with excuses not to do anything and leading to . Extending a train, ordering new ones, or two or more TOC'S working together.
Many suffering will be working in sectors where if you were busy you'd expand. A Pub packed out each night would expand which you'd think would be a lot harder than lengthening a train. Busy bus route, the operator either puts a bigger bus on or runs more frequently, they don't take twenty years to think about doing something

 

[craigybagel]

A time when CT and W&B worked together its CT drivers/guards to Aber. Just think how handy it would be when both have near enough identical trains running Birmingham - Shrewsbury? A spare WMT driver popping a TFW train to New St when the TFW driver is ill for example.
I don't ultimately blame TFW as they are now for the overcrowding and general problems found, it's the rail industry since privatisation it's a tangled mess with all the parts coming with excuses not to do anything and leading to . Extending a train, ordering new ones, or two or more TOC'S working together.

I must admit, having to maintain two separate depots at Shrewsbury has always seemed a bit silly, especially now about 95% of the WMR depots route card is already signed by TfW. The fact that in a year or two they'll also be driving very similar trains makes it even more ridiculous.

I think there was only a comparatively short couple of years window of 170s before the Central depot at Shrewsbury was broken up anyway - they didn't particularly like the slogs along the Mid Wales mainline - that being said in that era neither did the 158s!

Indeed. I seem to recall hearing from some at Machynlleth that they hated working the 170s when they briefly served there!

The 170s are staying around a bit longer in Wales now but they're now planned to depart from January next year onwards which means it seems there's little mileage in moving them.

With the Stadlers that were supposed to replace the 170s being diverted to Rhymney to replace the disastrous 769s, I guess that's an unavoidable side effect.

Transport for Wales also encourage the conductor to do this at local door only stations if its exceptionally busy where possible.

True - but it can only be done with 150s and 158s. There was a reference to 175s and their lack of SDO earlier but this local door only workaround doesn't work on those units as they lack butterfly valves. It's also not practical to do regularly as it takes so long.

 

[Runningaround]

I must admit, having to maintain two separate depots at Shrewsbury has always seemed a bit silly, especially now about 95% of the WMR depots route card is already signed by TfW. The fact that in a year or two they'll also be driving very similar trains makes it even more ridiculous.

Indeed. I seem to recall hearing from some at Machynlleth that they hated working the 170s when they briefly served there!

With the Stadlers that were supposed to replace the 170s being diverted to Rhymney to replace the disastrous 769s, I guess that's an unavoidable side effect.

True - but it can only be done with 150s and 158s. There was a reference to 175s and their lack of SDO earlier but this local door only workaround doesn't work on those units as they lack butterfly valves. It's also not practical to do regularly as it takes so long.

You could even get your breakfast in Royal Mail, I don't think even the mess rooms are shared now. It's amazing what can happen when working together. To most a train is a train longer and more frequent when things are busy seems logical. For some reason the Rail Industry has lost this in privatisation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2022 ==

After reading Snowdonia National Park Wardens asking walkers to use the loo before starting. I do hope that the one toilet on the Cambrian Coasts new trains are bulletproof.

 

[craigybagel]

You could even get your breakfast in Royal Mail, I don't think even the mess rooms are shared now. It's amazing what can happen when working together.

You could still get breakfast in the Post Office up until Covid, I've used it myself a few times. I'm assuming it's no longer offered now - even in 2019 the canteen seemed to be on its last legs (though the breakfast was still fantastic).

It's separate messrooms, though up until Covid most Machynlleth crews continued to use the WMR messroom on Platform 3 rather than the newer one for TfW on Platform 4.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2022 ==

After reading Snowdonia National Park Wardens asking walkers to use the loo before starting. I do hope that the one toilet on the Cambrian Coasts new trains are bulletproof.

They should have bigger tanks at least. One of the big issues with the 158 toilets is that the tanks were a recent retrofit, and they're very small compared to other units.

 

[robert thomas]

When was the last time a pacer was on the main line ? Its just I've only ever seen them on the Valleys

They frequently ran to Fishguard and other points in West Wales. Here is one at Neath on a Cardiff-Fishguard service

 

[Runningaround]

You could still get breakfast in the Post Office up until Covid, I've used it myself a few times. I'm assuming it's no longer offered now - even in 2019 the canteen seemed to be on its last legs (though the breakfast was still fantastic).

It's separate messrooms, though up until Covid most Machynlleth crews continued to use the WMR messroom on Platform 3 rather than the newer one for TfW on Platform 4.


They should have bigger tanks at least. One of the big issues with the 158 toilets is that the tanks were a recent retrofit, and they're very small compared to other units.

Platform 3 is more practical for town as the crew are often waiting two hours it's easier than going back and forth through the barriers for a smoke etc. Anyhow the long term staff will know each other from working the same train. PL4 is handier if your in a rush or can't be bothered to walk to p3
Perhaps the them and us culture isn't set in yet. But you only need a few jobsworths checking and enforcing ''privileged travel'' rules to the book to spoil it.

Do they still refill the toilets at Aber and Shrewsbury they have the time? I'd hope a facility is in place at Pwllheli to empty fill and clean a toilet during the day. I'd sooner a train be delayed than running toilet less. There isn't a route I can think of where the on train toilet is needed and might the last/first you see for many hours.

 

[Jez]

its understandable that TFW dont want to train other depots on the 170s given they wont be around for as long as originally planned. Its just a shame when your at Bridgend and see a 2 car 150 going to Manchester and 5 minutes later a 170 arrives from Maesteg going to Cardiff.

 

[Llanigraham]

In the 10 years I signalled the Marches route I can never recall seeing a Sprinter pass my Box.

 

[Llanigraham]

Indeed. I seem to recall hearing from some at Machynlleth that they hated working the 170s when they briefly served there!

They did not like Talerddig Bank! A few failed with slip attempting to climb it at certain times of the year.

 

[Jez]

Allocations on the South Wales to Manchester seem to be better today with only one pair of 153s on one diagram and a 175 on everything else I think. Seem to be mostly 3 cars as well.

 

[Runningaround]

They did not like Talerddig Bank! A few failed with slip attempting to climb it at certain times of the year.

The route wasn't sanded like today. It was just two/three men with a bucket of sand.

 

[mmh]

That was an instruction for Helsby that lots of guards refused to work in that way, many guards stuck to just local door operation for 1 big reason.
Opening doors for passengers using the external butterfly is very unsafe, it displays a method of opening a door on a train that the guard has no control over if that method gets used to gain entry on a moving trains......

Codswallop. How are you suggesting someone could use one on a moving train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Codswallop. How are you suggesting someone could use one on a moving train?

Presumably they meant from the outside having missed it. But as there's interlock, it would cause the train to stop from the fairly low speed it'd have to be moving at to do that (it would be physically impossible to rotate a butterfly cock by hand at more than about walking pace). Inconvenient but not all that dangerous.

 

[py_megapixel]

Opening doors for passengers using the external butterfly is very unsafe, it displays a method of opening a door on a train that the guard has no control over if that method gets used to gain entry on a moving trains......

With all due respect, that sounds nonsensical. On some units the external door releases are actually labelled as such - it's not as if their existence needs to be a secret. Besides, is somebody of the mind to attempt to open a door from the outside without authorisation really likely to be affected by the guard showing that it's theoretically possible? I doubt it.

It's not unique to TfW either. Stonehouse, on the Swindon-Cheltenham line, used to have platforms barely long enough for a 2-car train. A platform extension was planned (and has been completed in the past few years), but wasn't complete when Turbos arrived - so if a 3-car ran on that line, the guard simply got out of their cab and released a door from the outside. I saw this happen many times and the worst that seemed to come out of it was that GWR's stupid automated announcements went a station out of sync for the rest of the journey (one some units it only knows what station it's at by counting the number of times the doors had been centrally released) - which, while probaby an accessibility issue, is hardly a safety one.

 

[wobman]

Presumably they meant from the outside having missed it. But as there's interlock, it would cause the train to stop from the fairly low speed it'd have to be moving at to do that (it would be physically impossible to rotate a butterfly cock by hand at more than about walking pace). Inconvenient but not all that dangerous.

So kicking or turning the butterfly on a moving train is not dangerous???
Imagine the consequences of someone falling down between the train and platform edge ! Yes just look at the merseyrail Court cases in the last few years from similar incidents.

 

[mmh]

Are Avanti back to up full service in North Wales yet? Weren't they cancelling services over the weekend? That's a bulk of a Voyager load of passengers trying to squeeze onto the already busy TfW services. If demand is that high, why isn't anyone campaigning (or complaining) for Avanti to increase it's services

At the moment, there is a shuttle service for part of the day. The unit that arrives at Llandudno at 0958 from Manchester shuttles back and forth to the Junction until it forms the 1440 from Llandudno back to Manchester Airport. However, it is booked to be worked by a 2 car 175, and indeed it was one of those on 4 days out of 5 last week.

There is a very slow workaround that can be used for 158s. It doesn't work with other units in the fleet and it takes too long to be done on a regular basis.

The very fast workaround was for the guard to use the external door releases and then use a vestibule panel to close them as normal. The train was on time. What's the very slow workaround?

 

[Bikeman78]

When was the last time a pacer was on the main line ? Its just I've only ever seen them on the Valleys

They ran all over south Wales up to and including the Friday before lockdown. After that they didn't do much main line work. They did appear on Maesteg to Cheltenham and a 142 made it to Pembroke Dock in November 2020. See the video link below which shows it at Tenby.

When the IETs were taken out of service in May 2021, for a week a 143 ran empty Canton to Swansea every morning to attach to 2F52 back up to Cardiff. I think they were the only main line Pacer runs in 2021.

 

[craigybagel]

The very fast workaround was for the guard to use the external door releases and then use a vestibule panel to close them as normal. The train was on time. What's the very slow workaround?

You can get away with that at the odd station. It's too time consuming to do on a regular basis.

 

[Llandudno]

Indeed, which is essentially what I said isn't it. Surely a sensible service to overform on a day such as today too. OK, it may not be perfect - from a capacity perspective, it would be better to just use a two car 150 on the branch and have no through workings at all. But who is going to unpick a whole load of diagrams for the sake of one day? And of course, withdrawing all of the through services would attract lots of negative stakeholder attention.

Travelling back from Chester to Deganwy yesterday, I arrived at Llandudno Junction at 1717, however the next connecting train to Llandudno was not until 1751.

Not unusual to have to wait at Llandudno Junction for the connection, but at 1718 a train from Llandudno arrived and terminated in the bay platform and sat there until 1751.

In the time I was at the Junction from 1717 until 1751 the only other train due at the Junction was the 1721 loco hauled train to Cardiff.

Why couldn’t the 1751 to Llandudno departed at say, 1730 thereby offering reasonable connections from both Chester and Holyhead?

 

[Llanigraham]

Perhaps because the staff were due their break?

 

[Dai Corner]

Train services restored in May timetable change

Transport for Wales (TfW) customers are being encouraged to check their journey details as an increase in train services comes into effect in May.

news.tfw.wales

Transport for Wales (TfW) customers are being encouraged to check their journey details as an increase in train services comes into effect in May.
From Sunday 15 May, a new rail timetable will be in place across the Wales and Borders rail network. This will include the return of a number of services across North, Mid and West Wales that were removed from the timetable as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic, providing a boost to capacity ahead of a summer tourist season.
While the times of many services will be unaffected, customers should still ensure they double-check their departure, arrival and connection times.
Among the key changes are nine additional services each way per day along the North Wales Coast between Chester and Llandudno Junction, including the return of direct services between Llandudno and Manchester Airport, and six extra services each way between Swansea and West Wales.
TfW is also reintroducing two additional return services between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, and along the Conwy Valley Line between Llandudno Junction and Blaenau Ffestiniog.
In Cardiff, TfW is restoring direct services between Coryton and Radyr, and the shuttle service between Cardiff Queen Street and Cardiff Bay will also return, reintroducing key connections within the city.
Colin Lea, Transport for Wales Planning and Performance Director, said: “We are introducing more services across our network and making adjustments elsewhere from 15 May. It’s really important for customers to check their journey details ahead of travelling.
“As we welcome more customers back to our services, some trains will be busier than they have been for a while, especially in the busy holiday periods. For those customers who wish to travel on quieter services, we recommend using our Capacity Checker tool."
Customers must purchase a valid ticket before boarding a TfW service. Checking journey details and purchasing tickets can be done here.
South Wales Metro transformation works will continue to take place over the summer, including in evenings and at weekends when the network is quieter, so customers should always check before travelling to find out if their service is affected.
The May-December timetable period is also expected to include the introduction of the first of TfW’s brand new trains. The first new trains for the Wales and Borders network are planned to enter service on routes in North Wales and the Borders during the summer.

Notes to editors​

Timetable changes
North Wales:
- Nine additional return trips between Chester and Llandudno Junction
- Direct Llandudno-Manchester Airport services will be reinstated
- Two additional return services between Llandudno Junction and Blaenau Ffestiniog, increasing from four to six
Mid and West Wales:
- Two additional return services between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, increasing from 10 to 12
- Six of the current return services between Pembroke Dock and Carmarthen will be extended to Swansea, and an additional return service between Pembroke Dock and Tenby
- Three additional return services to/from Fishguard Harbour, increasing from three to six
- On the Heart of Wales Line, an additional early morning service between Shrewsbury and Llandrindod, and an additional early morning service between Swansea and Llandovery
South Wales:
- Reintroduction of direct services between Coryton and Radyr via the City Line
- Reintroduction of five services per hour between Cardiff Queen Street and Cardiff Bay
(subject to the completion of essential works to the Adam Street bridge)
Borders:
- Four services between South Wales and Gloucester will be extended to Cheltenham Spa
- TfW services will no longer call at Stafford
- Selected Sunday services between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton will no longer call at intermediate stations

 

[wobman]

Train services restored in May timetable change

Transport for Wales (TfW) customers are being encouraged to check their journey details as an increase in train services comes into effect in May.

news.tfw.wales

That's a lot of extra services and I do wonder how these plans can be covered with present staffing levels and unit provisions.....

There are cancellations regularly on many routes as things are so I'm intrigued how these services woll get covered and also let's not forget all of the new units traction training completed!

 

[Dai Corner]

That's a lot of extra services and I do wonder how these plans can be covered with present staffing levels and unit provisions.....

There are cancellations regularly on many routes as things are so I'm intrigued how these services woll get covered and also let's not forget all of the new units traction training completed!

I did wonder that myself!

Oh, and TfW also confirmed in response to a Facebook comment that Newport-Crosskeys will be reinstated 'before the timetable change'.

 

[Craig1122]

Given that frequency increases attract new custom and given that the current over crowding will be suppressing existing demand I can imagine that even with new stock TfW may well find they're running very hard to stand still over the next few years. Pre covid but there are examples in the past of doubled frequency attracting more than double the number of passengers.

For example Norwich - North Walsham, which is a very similar rural line to a lot of TfW routes, is claimed to have increased annual usage from 200k journeys a year when it was 2 hourly to 600k now it's hourly.

More urban but after South West Trains went from every 30 minutes to every 15 round the Hounslow loop station entries and exits broadly tripled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2022 ==

Many suffering will be working in sectors where if you were busy you'd expand. A Pub packed out each night would expand which you'd think would be a lot harder than lengthening a train. Busy bus route, the operator either puts a bigger bus on or runs more frequently, they don't take twenty years to think about doing something

Trouble is that when you rely on subsidy normal rules of economics cease to apply. I live on the outside edge of the Tfl area and some buses that run over the border can be very over crowded. But if each passenger is losing you money then all you're doing by running more or larger buses is actually increasing your losses.

The same may not apply to rail as you have high fixed costs for infrastructure, so it may well be better to spread them over a higher number of passengers if you can cover direct costs of running extra/longer trains. But subsidy makes its more complicated problem than for many businesses.

 

[Cardiff123]

Really?!
The way it's going now, Metro won't properly begin to open well before the 2030s...
Sure, maybe we'll have some new 197s, but in terms of the decreased journey times and electrification, we'll be waiting longer than Crossrail.

The first phase of the Metro, the electrification of the Valley lines, is progressing well and is only delayed by around 6 months due to Covid. There were major works at Taffs Well over Easter weekend to install new junctions and track layout ready for the new tram-train depot. There are regular blockades north of Radyr at evenings and weekends for electrification work, that is accelerating. The first phase of the Metro is on schedule to start operating in 2024.

But let's not let the facts get in the way of giving TfW a kicking