TfW Overcrowding

[wobman]

No, the under 5 sits on a parent's knee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==


I don't think I imagined the 197 I saw out today (staff training on a bank holiday which shows a degree of commitment) or the one I saw earlier in the week, and last week.

Plenty of training seems to be underway round here (Crewe-Shrewsbury).

Well I my lad stopped sitting on my knee on a train once he could sit upright, it's something I've never seen enforced by any guard on a train.

Regarding training on Bank Holidays we work bank Holidays on the railways so training will continue during Bank Holidays. The only non working day for traincrew is Christmas day

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The first SDO fitted rake is scheduled to be delivered around October. There's management/instructor sessions next week to see and operate a prototype SDO panel.
Currently the plan is for HD07 (the black set at Crewe) to have the additional coach removed and used as a 4-car training/back up service rake.
I believe its planned to fulfill this role.for around 8 weeks then another ex-GC should be delivered from Eastleigh to replace it, the 3rd GC set should then go into service to replace the first of the original 3 Holyhead sets which then go off for refresh/repaint and potentially SDO fitting if the design has Been finalised.

Thanks for that detailed explanation. Any ideas on whether the ex-GC sets will get a repaint anytime soon?

At least these new MK4 sets will be a very good crowdbuster for the TfW network.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for that detailed explanation. Any ideas on whether the ex-GC sets will get a repaint anytime soon?

At least these new MK4 sets will be a very good crowdbuster for the TfW network.

The only change you'll likely see is that the orange stripe Will go red. The paint is under warranty.

Think this thread is a bit mixed up now.and could.do with splitting, it's mostly turned into a train introduction thread

 

[wobman]

Regarding the over crowding on tfw services, I find Avanti even though they are running fewer services never seems to get the critism that tfw get.

Whenever there's any engineering work Avanti cancel services and expect the other tocs to pick up the passengers, at weekends and bank holidays there's usually lots of Avanti stock sitting idle whilst other tocs struggle to cover the demand. This is something the DFT should look at but they never do.

 

[Jez]

I have travelled from Manchester to South Wales a few times in recent months and the services ive been on have mostly been busy. And all 3 cars as well. Not full and standing but very busy with almost every seat taken at some points. The sooner 5 carriages are used on these services the better. Passengers deserve better.

 

[trainophile]

The 4-coach loco hauled set I was on this morning, which I presume is one of the revered mark 4s(?), still had “reserved from Peterborough“ on the overhead seat reservations.

Oh and from the NRE website…

Children under five years of age​

Children under five years of age may accompany fare-paying passengers free of charge, unless the Train Company you want to use specifies otherwise in their notices and other publications. However, children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a fare-paying passenger.

 

[Caaardiff]

Just been on a 2 car 175 to Manchester Airport full from chester and the guard said the train earlier left 60 behind at Oxford Road on its return journey. On our return journey we were full and standing from Piccadilly aswell, most services to Manchester were 2 cars, all the 3 cars were on the Cardiff to Manchesters by the looks of things..... it's a common move for the 3 cars to disappear the south of the tfw franchise and the North suffers as a result.....

Not really. Manchester - Chester also has Northern. Chester/Crewe - Holyhead also has Avanti, as well as 4 car Birmingham - Holyhead services.

The marches has hourly Manchester - West Wales, supplemented by 2 hourly Holyhead - Cardiff. TfW are the only operator on the marches and there's often overcrowding posts commenting on it only being a 2 car.
They are both incredibly busy routes, even more so with leisure travel. So this nonsense of South gets more than North is a load of rubbish.

It's worth noting that today Avanti were cancelling lots of services across North Wales. That has got to hurt TfW's capacity.

The history behind most of the overcrowding is:
- A previous no growth franchise
- Failed 769 and 230 introductions meaning 150's and 153's still covering
- A large shift in demand since covid from commuter traffic to leisure traffic. Being Wales the leisure traffic is heading all over the network. South Wales. West Wales, Mid Wales and North Wales. If it wasn't so spread out TfW could concentrate capacity, but it's needed everywhere. The only saving grace is commuter traffic on the South Wales Valleys, which used to be huge and was the biggest focus for capacity has eased somewhat.
- Delayed introduction of 197s and training of all the new fleets, again delayed by covid restrictions.

TfW could really do with a quick fix of an extra few units for the summer. A couple of 150's, or 158's for commonality. But there's none available.

 

[wobman]

Not really. Manchester - Chester also has Northern. Chester/Crewe - Holyhead also has Avanti, as well as 4 car Birmingham - Holyhead services.

The marches has hourly Manchester - West Wales, supplemented by 2 hourly Holyhead - Cardiff. TfW are the only operator on the marches and there's often overcrowding posts commenting on it only being a 2 car.
They are both incredibly busy routes, even more so with leisure travel. So this nonsense of South gets more than North is a load of rubbish.

It's worth noting that today Avanti were cancelling lots of services across North Wales. That has got to hurt TfW's capacity.

The history behind most of the overcrowding is:
- A previous no growth franchise
- Failed 769 and 230 introductions meaning 150's and 153's still covering
- A large shift in demand since covid from commuter traffic to leisure traffic. Being Wales the leisure traffic is heading all over the network. South Wales. West Wales, Mid Wales and North Wales. If it wasn't so spread out TfW could concentrate capacity, but it's needed everywhere. The only saving grace is commuter traffic on the South Wales Valleys, which used to be huge and was the biggest focus for capacity has eased somewhat.
- Delayed introduction of 197s and training of all the new fleets, again delayed by covid restrictions.

TfW could really do with a quick fix of an extra few units for the summer. A couple of 150's, or 158's for commonality. But there's none available.

That was my earlier point about Avanti cancelling services and getting away without any criticism, it's frustrating as the press then go at Tfw for the resulting capacity issues.

Regarding quick fixes unfortunately there isn't any out there, tfw have acquired every available 153 they could but there's just not enough DMUs to go around. The 197s will be late into service as are most new units coming into service, tfw are training as much staff as possible but it's the units just aren't ready yet.

This summer is going to be messy and there's not much tfw can do unfortunately, its the legacy of a 15yr non growth franchise set up by the good old DFT.

 

[trainophile]

Well today’s Journey Check is a work of art. 152 “train alterations“, the few I’ve checked are showing full & standing from future points on trains that haven’t even set out yet! I checked that they’re not still showing yesterday’s data but nope, details are for 16th.

Presumably they don’t want any passengers today.

 

[Some guy]

The worst thing they do is run a 2 car 150 from milford haven all the way to Manchester. They may as well just cancel the service if they keep doing that

 

[py_megapixel]

The worst thing they do is run a 2 car 150 from milford haven all the way to Manchester. They may as well just cancel the service if they keep doing that

Crowded train is always better than no train.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well today’s Journey Check is a work of art. 152 “train alterations“, the few I’ve checked are showing full & standing from future points on trains that haven’t even set out yet! I checked that they’re not still showing yesterday’s data but nope, details are for 16th.

Presumably they don’t want any passengers today.

Many/most are now 'no longer full and standing', including those to Barry Island which I suspect probably are/will be on a sunny Bank Holiday weekend!

 

[trainophile]

Many/most are now 'no longer full and standing', including those to Barry Island which I suspect probably are/will be on a sunny Bank Holiday weekend!

Including ones that haven’t set off yet. “No longer“ implies that they were F&S previousl which for a service starting at 13:00 is a bit pessimistic/unlikely.

I did tweet them about it this morning, got an apology and a promise to check it. It was probably easier to use “no longer” than re-write the whole thing. I bet compiling that every day is an unenviable task.

 

[sd0733]

Looks like a bit of proactive set swapping going on at Swansea swapping out 2 car units to keep in the west with the 3 cars heading back to Manchester to keep the capacity on the busiest parts

 

[Philip]

Not really. Manchester - Chester also has Northern. Chester/Crewe - Holyhead also has Avanti, as well as 4 car Birmingham - Holyhead services.

The marches has hourly Manchester - West Wales, supplemented by 2 hourly Holyhead - Cardiff. TfW are the only operator on the marches and there's often overcrowding posts commenting on it only being a 2 car.
They are both incredibly busy routes, even more so with leisure travel. So this nonsense of South gets more than North is a load of rubbish.

It's worth noting that today Avanti were cancelling lots of services across North Wales. That has got to hurt TfW's capacity.

The history behind most of the overcrowding is:
- A previous no growth franchise
- Failed 769 and 230 introductions meaning 150's and 153's still covering
- A large shift in demand since covid from commuter traffic to leisure traffic. Being Wales the leisure traffic is heading all over the network. South Wales. West Wales, Mid Wales and North Wales. If it wasn't so spread out TfW could concentrate capacity, but it's needed everywhere. The only saving grace is commuter traffic on the South Wales Valleys, which used to be huge and was the biggest focus for capacity has eased somewhat.
- Delayed introduction of 197s and training of all the new fleets, again delayed by covid restrictions.

TfW could really do with a quick fix of an extra few units for the summer. A couple of 150's, or 158's for commonality. But there's none available.

I think there are still about four 3-coach 175 diagrams on the Chester-Manchester route during the week, with most of the afternoon/evening services out of Manchester running as 3-car units - including a 5-car working in the early evening.

Do you know how many 2-car diagrams normally run on the Manchester-South Wales route?

 

[Runningaround]

I understand that plenty of the new Class 197’s are now built & lying in sidings at various places but no TfW staff have even started the few days of training it takes to operate them. Covid and some fault issues seem to be the reason given for the delay. I also understand that the first depot to get these 197’s will be Chester but that is at present the main depot for the 175’s. Perhaps they will have a sudden swop over?

It is also disappointing that the Mark 4 coaches hauled by Class 67 locomotives have also failed to make an appearance - apart from one or two services on the Holyhead to Cardiff run on weekdays only.

They ran yesterday between Holyhead and Cardiff, bit late to replace the rammed two carriage Cardiff to Chester part earlier in the day. Better than the 75mph guaranteed to be late Sprinter they've been using.

When it does turn up instead of the usual 175/158 are you allowed to sit in the premium seats considering the buffet is closed and there aren't any first class tickets available. It'd be a shame if they didn't utilise the whole train when it's busy. And it'd be a good marketing tool for when it does run it's usual timetable passengers will have had a taster and might book it specially.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2022 ==

Well I wouldn't want my 5 year old sitting on my Lap for a few hours, he's entitled to a seat and he wouldn't be moving from it. Who's going to enforce it ? The poor Guards can't even enforce passengers wearing face masks so getting a toddler to move out of a seat isn't happening.

I'd like to see an adult moving a sleeping five year old and sit next to its mother in it's seat. It won't just be the parent giving you a peace of their mind. Yesterday it was the younger 15 - 20 generation offering there seats to the elderly, the 30 - 50 year olds just pretended to not notice and looked miffed when the offer was made.

 

[Anonymous10]

Looks like a bit of proactive set swapping going on at Swansea swapping out 2 car units to keep in the west with the 3 cars heading back to Manchester to keep the capacity on the busiest parts

hate to say it but the west is still going to struggle on a 2 car formation especially tenby

 

[RJ]

I've been using the Marches Line for the last 2 months.

Trains pick up long delays at short notice and cancellations go on for hours, even when the line is passable. I ask the locals I know up there how they find it and they say you just get used to it. I've had to call taxis at least 4 times to make it to appointments because of the late notice problems.

If there are standby buses in place that's something at least - hope the issues the line faces can be resolved.

 

[trainophile]

Hereford was on the list of stations with standby buses for Easter, but when I got there yesterday at 07:30 there wasn't any sign of any.

Just got back on the 3-coach 175 1030 from Holyhead. Jam packed along the coast, by Chester it was heaving. Practically emptied out at Chester though, and the rest of the journey was comfortable but busy.

 

[Runningaround]

Hereford was on the list of stations with standby buses for Easter, but when I got there yesterday at 07:30 there wasn't any sign of any.

Just got back on the 3-coach 175 1030 from Holyhead. Jam packed along the coast, by Chester it was heaving. Practically emptied out at Chester though, and the rest of the journey was comfortable but busy.

There were loads heading to Liverpool though no game on. Just think if Everton or Liverpool had been at home? Many at Ruabon and Chirk were prevented getting on, Interest in Wrexham FC has increased significantly recently, Buses weren't running very often either so that would have put people on the train. You'd think Bank Holidays were just sprung up on us rather than been around decades.

 

[wobman]

There were loads heading to Liverpool though no game on. Just think if Everton or Liverpool had been at home? Many at Ruabon and Chirk were prevented getting on, Interest in Wrexham FC has increased significantly recently, Buses weren't running very often either so that would have put people on the train. You'd think Bank Holidays were just sprung up on us rather than been around decades.

Liverpool are playing man City in the fa Cup final at Wembley, so loads of supporters are going into Liverpool to watch it in the pubs etc

I know Wrexham are well followed now due to Ryan Reynolds, it's great for the town. Unfortunately tfw just dont have the units to cope with increase in demand post covid, this year will be very bad but next year should be a big improvement with the new units running hopefully.

 

[Runningaround]

Liverpool are playing man City in the fa Cup final at Wembley, so loads of supporters are going into Liverpool to watch it in the pubs etc

I know Wrexham are well followed now due to Ryan Reynolds, it's great for the town. Unfortunately tfw just dont have the units to cope with increase in demand post covid, this year will be very bad but next year should be a big improvement with the new units running hopefully.

They weren't yesterday.
TFW/ARRIVA/Wales & Borders never did sort it either it's only been a problem for around 25 years and more. But nevermind it will be all sorted next year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2022 ==

Sorry if this makes me an ogre, but too right I would. As I expect would most pensioners. Young children are supposed to sit on the lap of the accompanying parent if the train is crowded. I appreciate that's not practical with 5-11 year olds, hence my surprise at the idea of letting them travel free on already overcrowded trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2022 ==


Pedant alert - it's not the Welsh folk I represent here! It's those who have the misfortune to live in England yet be reliant on Transport for Wales to get where we need to go.

.

The 4-coach loco hauled set I was on this morning, which I presume is one of the revered mark 4s(?), still had “reserved from Peterborough“ on the overhead seat reservations.

Oh and from the NRE website…

Children under five years of age​

Children under five years of age may accompany fare-paying passengers free of charge, unless the Train Company you want to use specifies otherwise in their notices and other publications. However, children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a fare-paying passenger.

Considering the service is to busy for staff to check tickets. How are you as a passenger going to know what ticket the child is travelling on? How are you to ascertain what age they are will you be asking for their I.D? Will you be also looking out for rail staff on free passes sitting in a seat.

 

[wobman]

They weren't yesterday.
TFW/ARRIVA/Wales & Borders never did sort it either it's only been a problem for around 25 years and more. But nevermind it will be all sorted next year.

It's an Easter Bank Holiday weekend, so it's expected to be busy on the form of public transport. Unfortunately the wales and borders franchise was awarded to Arriva as a non growth franchise, so it's been 20yrs of no new trains but passenger numbers have grown a lot in that time.

At least TFW are trying to resolve the problems by ordering new trains, it's going to take some time to get ontop of the inherited mess of a franchise they now have.

 

[Jez]

I caught the train to Cardiff this afternoon. Very busy both ways especially the journey up. On the return i caught the 1704 Carmarthen, not as busy as it could have been possibly as followed the GWR by about 15 mins and seemed to get quieter after Bridgend. Whilst waiting I saw the 1655 Manchester on Platform 2 and that was a 150. Rather them than me! The 1655 is usually a very busy train which needed a 3 car. But id still rather a 150 than a cancelled train.

 

[317 forever]

We have a theory that because the Marches is largely not in Wales, they have no incentive to worry about those of us in England who are stuck with no alternative.

What we therefore need is for this route to be split. TfW could keep a shuttle between Carmarthen and Cardiff, while a new service could start from Cardiff to Manchester, potentially operated by TransPennine Express. On second thoughts we want a daily service on that route, not just Monday-Friday + Saturday when it's not a Bank Holiday weekend.

 

[Kite159]

The worst thing they do is run a 2 car 150 from milford haven all the way to Manchester. They may as well just cancel the service if they keep doing that

I can think of something worse than a 2 coach 150...

A single 153 on Manchester - Milford services

 

[Penmorfa]

Hereford was on the list of stations with standby buses for Easter, but when I got there yesterday at 07:30 there wasn't any sign of any.

Just got back on the 3-coach 175 1030 from Holyhead. Jam packed along the coast, by Chester it was heaving. Practically emptied out at Chester though, and the rest of the journey was comfortable but busy.

Probably emptied out at Chester because we still have'nt got the hourly Llandudno - Man picc service back. Will we see that again?

 

[wobman]

What we therefore need is for this route to be split. TfW could keep a shuttle between Carmarthen and Cardiff, while a new service could start from Cardiff to Manchester, potentially operated by TransPennine Express. On second thoughts we want a daily service on that route, not just Monday-Friday + Saturday when it's not a Bank Holiday weekend.

The tfw franchise is the Wales and borders franchise, as you can't have a self contained Wales only franchise with the geography of the country.
How could TPE run the route which depot would be utilised?

Tfw are planning to use Mk4s and 5 car 197s with 1st class in the near future, so things will improve.

 

[Sheridan]

Expected to return in May (no guarantees!)

 

[wobman]

Probably emptied out at Chester because we still have'nt got the hourly Llandudno - Man picc service back. Will we see that again?

There's lots of changes planned in May