TfW Overcrowding

[sw1ller]

I understand that plenty of the new Class 197’s are now built & lying in sidings at various places but no TfW staff have even started the few days of training it takes to operate them. Covid and some fault issues seem to be the reason given for the delay. I also understand that the first depot to get these 197’s will be Chester but that is at present the main depot for the 175’s. Perhaps they will have a sudden swop over?

It is also disappointing that the Mark 4 coaches hauled by Class 67 locomotives have also failed to make an appearance - apart from one or two services on the Holyhead to Cardiff run on weekdays only.

That’s not true. I’ve been trained on the 197’s, as have many other drivers and guards. They’re just not ready for service yet.

 

[trainophile]

Well credit where it‘s due, they seem to have pulled out all the stops today. Very few cancellations, and almost all later in the day when most leisure travellers will have got to where they are going.

Very pleasantly surprised to find the 0754 from Hereford that I’m on is a 4-coach “Gerald”. Plenty of room so far. Worth the early start for!

 

[Envoy]

That’s not true. I’ve been trained on the 197’s, as have many other drivers and guards. They’re just not ready for service yet.

I apologise for giving wrong information.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

please remember new trains are coming and tfw neither have the stock or the ability with the 175s to run 4 or 5 car trains in passenger service due to the door controls on those units if i remember correctly. once the new stock arrives you would hope 3 car trains will be the minimum on that route and there will be 4 or 5 car loco hauled sets too

175s have run in multiple since the very early days with FNW, but there aren't enough to make it practicable.
Mk4s now run 3 round trips a day which is something (when they run), but it's taking too long to get more in traffic.

It's galling to see new TfW trains idle in sidings (eg 230/197 at Chester) while the real service is struggling.
Not to mention much of TPE's 185/Mk5 stock also idle in the north.
The diesel fleet could be doing a lot more miles if the railway could get its act together.
Plus the lack of Voyagers on Avanti routes (also sitting idle for no obvious reason).

 

[STINT47]

Does anyone know if overcrowding is bad on the North Wales coast routes during the week? I'm thinking of doing z coast and peaks rover at the start if June and was wondering if it will be bad.

Do the mk4 run along the coast? If so does anyone know the diagrams?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Anonymous10]

175s have run in multiple since the very early days with FNW, but there aren't enough to make it practicable.
Mk4s now run 3 round trips a day which is something (when they run), but it's taking too long to get more in traffic.

It's galling to see new TfW trains idle in sidings (eg 230/197 at Chester) while the real service is struggling.
Not to mention much of TPE's 185/Mk5 stock also idle in the north.
The diesel fleet could be doing a lot more miles if the railway could get its act together.
Plus the lack of Voyagers on Avanti routes (also sitting idle for no obvious reason).

the 197s haven't met their fault free milage and none have been handed over to tfw from caf to my knowledge also still few train crew are trained and they're not cleared on routes yet. please follow the caf 197 thread for more info

 

[AgeoftheTrain7]

Hold on Welsh folk. The Welsh rail network will be unrecognisable in a couple of years time.

Really?!
The way it's going now, Metro won't properly begin to open well before the 2030s...
Sure, maybe we'll have some new 197s, but in terms of the decreased journey times and electrification, we'll be waiting longer than Crossrail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Does anyone know if overcrowding is bad on the North Wales coast routes during the week? I'm thinking of doing z coast and peaks rover at the start if June and was wondering if it will be bad.

Do the mk4 run along the coast? If so does anyone know the diagrams?

Thank you in advance.

It shouldn't be too bad at all - the Cambrian Coast Line (Birmingham/Shrewsbury to Abersytwyth/Pwlhelli) runs a 4-car 158, which splits at Machynlleth into two 2-car units. These aren't crowded, especially in weekdays.

The mk4 only runs from Cardiff to Holyhead, so up the Welsh Marches Line, then onto Wrexham then Holyhead, via Llandudno/Bangor etc.
Bear in mind that Avanti also operate services between Holyhead and Crewe as well...

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

So would you really ask an under 5 year old child to stand up so you can sit on a seat ? I've never seen that happen.

Tfw are getting as many 197 units as the DFT will let them, the DFT specified 56 x 2 car and 21 x 3 car 197 units. Tfw have also purchased extra Mk4s from the failed GC project they are up and above there franchise plan.

Tfw have inherited a franchise that was a zero growth 15yr DFT devised franchise that was awarded to ATW, that is why the wales and borders franchise is in such a mess. Plus covid has added to the chaos as all training has been heavily delayed, resulting in traincrew no trained on certain traction and trainees delayed being productive.

A five-year old is usually happy enough to sit on the lap of an accompanying grown-up.

 

[wobman]

A five-year old is usually happy enough to sit on the lap of an accompanying grown-up.

Well I wouldn't want my 5 year old sitting on my Lap for a few hours, he's entitled to a seat and he wouldn't be moving from it. Who's going to enforce it ? The poor Guards can't even enforce passengers wearing face masks so getting a toddler to move out of a seat isn't happening.

 

[wobman]

I understand that plenty of the new Class 197’s are now built & lying in sidings at various places but no TfW staff have even started the few days of training it takes to operate them. Covid and some fault issues seem to be the reason given for the delay. I also understand that the first depot to get these 197’s will be Chester but that is at present the main depot for the 175’s. Perhaps they will have a sudden swop over?

It is also disappointing that the Mark 4 coaches hauled by Class 67 locomotives have also failed to make an appearance - apart from one or two services on the Holyhead to Cardiff run on weekdays only.

Only approx 10 of the 77 x 197s have been built so far and 6 of them are at Donnington sidings, of the 4 seen running around they are all completing testing / mileage accumulation or traincrew training. Non of the 197s have completed there fault free mileage accumulation yet and this is in the hands of Caf with freightliner drivers.

Tfw are training up traincrew as quickly as they can whilst still running services, It's not a quick or easy process I can tell you from experience. Regarding the 197s introduction it will be 1 x 175 out of service and 1 x 197 into service, that is the transition plan.

 

[wobman]

175s have run in multiple since the very early days with FNW, but there aren't enough to make it practicable.
Mk4s now run 3 round trips a day which is something (when they run), but it's taking too long to get more in traffic.

It's galling to see new TfW trains idle in sidings (eg 230/197 at Chester) while the real service is struggling.
Not to mention much of TPE's 185/Mk5 stock also idle in the north.
The diesel fleet could be doing a lot more miles if the railway could get its act together.
Plus the lack of Voyagers on Avanti routes (also sitting idle for no obvious reason).

What's the solution regarding getting the new rolling stock into service?

Training drivers takes 1 week per driver, then there's getting the paths for training runs whilst running services.
The 197s you see haven't even passed mileage accumulation testing without faults yet, they can't be accepted into service until then.
The build quality isn't very good So they arrive littered with faults, tfw are training up traincrew as quickly as possible whilst still running services.

Regarding them 230's let's see what happens in May......

 

[py_megapixel]

Well I wouldn't want my 5 year old sitting on my Lap for a few hours, he's entitled to a seat and he wouldn't be moving from it.

He is not entitled to a seat unless he holds a seat reservation.

 

[wobman]

He is not entitled to a seat unless he holds a seat reservation.

He's entitled to a seat if its not reserved and he's sitting on it, not all seats are reserved on train services.

 

[Starmill]

He is not entitled to a seat unless he holds a seat reservation.

It reads to me more like they're getting at the point that a child with a child ticket is entitled to occupy a seat if they find it vacant and not with anything to display it's reserved. I.e. a child with a valid child ticket occupying a seat in accordance with the Byelaws (which apply to everyone) can't be compelled to move for an adult with a valid adult ticket who is standing.

 

[Eccles1983]

I'd genuinely enjoy watching some of you try to tell a child travelling with an adult to stand to allow you to sit. The look of horror when you were told to go forth and multiply would humour me for the remainder of the trip.

If the adult is unsteady on their feet due to age or disability then they can have mine. But there is zero chance that you would be getting one of my kids seats.

You paid for a space on the train, not a seat.

 

[craigybagel]

I understand that plenty of the new Class 197’s are now built & lying in sidings at various places but no TfW staff have even started the few days of training it takes to operate them. Covid and some fault issues seem to be the reason given for the delay. I also understand that the first depot to get these 197’s will be Chester but that is at present the main depot for the 175’s. Perhaps they will have a sudden swop over?

Although the exact details aren't set in stone, the first 197 routes will be in the North end of the network (Blaneau and Chester - Liverpool are the most likely initial candidates). Even though it's likely to be a while longer before they make it to the Marches and South/West Wales, it should still free up units for those services.

Multiple guards and drivers across that part of the network have been trained up already, with more coming through every week. Guards training was suspended recently but should be back up and running shortly as well.

It is also disappointing that the Mark 4 coaches hauled by Class 67 locomotives have also failed to make an appearance - apart from one or two services on the Holyhead to Cardiff run on weekdays only.

There are currently only 3 sets in existence to cover 2 diagrams, with the spare normally in Crewe during the week for maintenance/training. The first ex GC set has arrived and it's hoped to get that in service ASAP to provide a more robust service on the current 3 services a day each way diagrams.

Training is also being ramped up. A drivers course is taking place right now, and there are more drivers allocated to courses all through the summer and into Autumn to support the big increase in MKIV operated services planned for December. Training of guards is also ongoing, and should be increasing in the Summer with another depot added to the list of those who sign it.

Lots of things happening - it's just frustrating that the recovery from the damage caused by a 15 years no growth franchise has been hampered by Covid. This summer will be challenging, but next year should be a lot better.

 

[Envoy]

Although the exact details aren't set in stone, the first 197 routes will be in the North end of the network (Blaneau and Chester - Liverpool are the most likely initial candidates). Even though it's likely to be a while longer before they make it to the Marches and South/West Wales, it should still free up units for those services.

Multiple guards and drivers across that part of the network have been trained up already, with more coming through every week. Guards training was suspended recently but should be back up and running shortly as well.

There are currently only 3 sets in existence to cover 2 diagrams, with the spare normally in Crewe during the week for maintenance/training. The first ex GC set has arrived and it's hoped to get that in service ASAP to provide a more robust service on the current 3 services a day each way diagrams.

Training is also being ramped up. A drivers course is taking place right now, and there are more drivers allocated to courses all through the summer and into Autumn to support the big increase in MKIV operated services planned for December. Training of guards is also ongoing, and should be increasing in the Summer with another depot added to the list of those who sign it.

Lots of things happening - it's just frustrating that the recovery from the damage caused by a 15 years no growth franchise has been hampered by Covid. This summer will be challenging, but next year should be a lot better.

Many thanks for the detailed update on the situation. If the 197’s start on the Llandudno to BF line and the Chester to Liverpool, then I guess that frees up 150’s to be sent down south for the local lines.

 

[northwichcat]

I didn't know that. It gets worse.

Family train ticket | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

I can see that creating interesting conversations with the ticket inspectors at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The first ex GC set has arrived and it's hoped to get that in service ASAP to provide a more robust service on the current 3 services a day each way diagrams.

If that set does enter on CDF - HHD before December and the Manchester services, will that be 5 cars using SDO or temporarily down to 4?

 

[185143]

I'd genuinely enjoy watching some of you try to tell a child travelling with an adult to stand to allow you to sit. The look of horror when you were told to go forth and multiply would humour me for the remainder of the trip.

If the adult is unsteady on their feet due to age or disability then they can have mine. But there is zero chance that you would be getting one of my kids seats.

You paid for a space on the train, not a seat.

And a child under 5 hasn't even paid for a space on the train...

 

[craigybagel]

If that set does enter on CDF - HHD before December and the Manchester services, will that be 5 cars using SDO or temporarily down to 4?

4 - SDO not fitted yet

 

[py_megapixel]

And a child under 5 hasn't even paid for a space on the train...

It could be argued that it is included in the adult price.

 

[RuddA]

I travelled from Cardiff Bay to Caerphilly and back last Saturday and from Cardiff Central to Bridgend last Sunday, out via the coast and back direct. Only the return from Caerphilly was very busy, most seats taken in our carriage taken by people travelling for an evening out.
I was told by the staff at Caerphilly that my 2 children could have travelled free but with 2 adults and a F&F railcard I bought the child tickets; in hindsight I should have bought only 1 child ticket.
From Bridgend could the children travel free on a non TfW service?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

4 - SDO not fitted yet

Ah ok. Do we know when it will be SDO fitted?

 

[wobman]

Just been on a 2 car 175 to Manchester Airport full from chester and the guard said the train earlier left 60 behind at Oxford Road on its return journey. On our return journey we were full and standing from Piccadilly aswell, most services to Manchester were 2 cars, all the 3 cars were on the Cardiff to Manchesters by the looks of things..... it's a common move for the 3 cars to disappear the south of the tfw franchise and the North suffers as a result.....

 

[L401CJF]

Family train ticket | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

I can see that creating interesting conversations with the ticket inspectors at Manchester Piccadilly

According to the map on the link, theyre not valid that far. Theyre issued as zero fare tickets so although nothing is paid they will still have a ticket to get through any barriers etc.

 

[sd0733]

Ah ok. Do we know when it will be SDO fitted?

The first SDO fitted rake is scheduled to be delivered around October. There's management/instructor sessions next week to see and operate a prototype SDO panel.
Currently the plan is for HD07 (the black set at Crewe) to have the additional coach removed and used as a 4-car training/back up service rake.
I believe its planned to fulfill this role.for around 8 weeks then another ex-GC should be delivered from Eastleigh to replace it, the 3rd GC set should then go into service to replace the first of the original 3 Holyhead sets which then go off for refresh/repaint and potentially SDO fitting if the design has Been finalised.

 

[Parham Wood]

Which is why voters in Wales have voted them in in every major election for the last hundred years. Not.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but do you think Welsh people are muppets too?

It's called democracy and, btw, I have never voted Laour in my life but I respect the will of the Welsh people. You, apparently, do not.

Drakeford is voted in by the South Wales Valleys which have always been Labour and these comprise the majority of seats with Cardiff, Newport and Swansea. The voters of the rest of the country in reality have no chance to change anything. South Wales gets most of the funding available, with the North virtually ignored by Labour. It may be democracy but it may not be good for Wales as a whole.

 

[mmh]

We have a theory that because the Marches is largely not in Wales, they have no incentive to worry about those of us in England who are stuck with no alternative.

I understand your thinking, but I think it's probably far simpler than anything as bizarre as that. They're just incompetent. The Welsh Government is incompetent.

I'll misquote it, but there's that saying which goes along the lines of "never attribute that which can be explained by incompetence to malice."

 

[6Gman]

So would you really ask an under 5 year old child to stand up so you can sit on a seat ? I've never seen that happen.

No, the under 5 sits on a parent's knee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

I understand that plenty of the new Class 197’s are now built & lying in sidings at various places but no TfW staff have even started the few days of training it takes to operate them. Covid and some fault issues seem to be the reason given for the delay. I also understand that the first depot to get these 197’s will be Chester but that is at present the main depot for the 175’s. Perhaps they will have a sudden swop over?

It is also disappointing that the Mark 4 coaches hauled by Class 67 locomotives have also failed to make an appearance - apart from one or two services on the Holyhead to Cardiff run on weekdays only.

I don't think I imagined the 197 I saw out today (staff training on a bank holiday which shows a degree of commitment) or the one I saw earlier in the week, and last week.

Plenty of training seems to be underway round here (Crewe-Shrewsbury).