TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[31160]

Thanks to a post by Bob elsewhere, I was able to catch 398024 at Cardiff Bay around 1830

They're not exactly good looking are they

 

[iamraymond]

They're not exactly good looking are they

I think its the abundance of windscreen that looks odd

 

[VR494]

I think its the abundance of windscreen that looks odd

It reminds me of a Parry People Mover on steroids (class 139).

Spoke to one of the crew and he said they had a few technical issues with multiple running but they are the best train they have by a long way.

They're going to have to run as single units by the looks of it, the wiring in each coupler has sadly meant some sets are just not compatible. For the crew say they are the best train in the fleet is very erroneous!

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[Bob Price]

That's a very bold statement to make at this stage. I hope the 398s perform well and are a success, but I think by far the trains that get the award for being TfW's best ever trains are the 231s and 756s.

Just posting what was said. There is a lot of negativity about these units so it was interesting to hear what staff actually think about them.

 

[800001]

It reminds me of a Parry People Mover on steroids (class 139).

They're going to have to run as single units by the looks of it, the wiring in each coupler has sadly meant some sets are just not compatible. For the crew say they are the best train in the fleet is very erroneous!

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In what way is wiring not compatible?

 

[tfw756rider]

In what way is wiring not compatible?

Apparently some of the couplers are wired differently to others.

 

[800001]

Apparently some of the couplers are wired differently to others.

In that case Stadler should be made to rewire them to the correct standard/spec so that they are exactly as designed.

 

[chargesmith]

In that case Stadler should be made to rewire them to the correct standard/spec so that they are exactly as designed.

I don't think that it's plausible that they are simply wired differently. I do not believe it is likely that units of the same type explicitly meant to run in multiple that were built in the same factory at the same time would have different wiring arrangements. It just does not make any sense.

 

[enapace]

Surely if couplers are wired wrong shouldn’t they need to be fixed by manufacturer

 

[800001]

I don't think that it's plausible that they are simply wired differently. I do not believe it is likely that units of the same type explicitly meant to run in multiple that were built in the same factory at the same time would have different wiring arrangements. It just does not make any sense.

I agree, it doesn't make sense.

 

[35B]

I don't think that it's plausible that they are simply wired differently. I do not believe it is likely that units of the same type explicitly meant to run in multiple that were built in the same factory at the same time would have different wiring arrangements. It just does not make any sense.

It's implausible that such a major function would both be installed incorrectly, and then get through post-manufacture checks, and then be accepted by a customer. Any one of those is plausible, but the concatenation is not.

However, looking at the time taken to get the Class 230 units running properly on the Borderlands, it is sadly plausible that TfW's procurement team may not be up to scratch to define the spec so that it can a) be built to and b) enforced.

 

[positron]

Probably less hassle than the normal sort of passenger.

Here it is at Radyr doing an impersonation of a tilting train.

At the platform there was a bit of a gap at the front door with the step out - hardly surprising given the curvature and that the 756s are the same.

View attachment 203534

Yeah Radyr is particularly egregious for it's PTI (platform train interface) especially *that* platform. They'll need to do some serious engineering work to get that acceptable.

 

[AdamWW]

It's implausible that such a major function would both be installed incorrectly, and then get through post-manufacture checks, and then be accepted by a customer. Any one of those is plausible, but the concatenation is not.

Putting all that aside, I also don't understand the logic of "some trains are wired differently" > "it's not possible to run any trains in multiple."

I'm sure that having some units that can't run in multiple or groups of units that can only run with each other is a constraint that TfW could do without, but I don't see why it would mean nothing can run in multiple.

 

[Chris125]

A misunderstanding seems more likely; quite normal for some units in a new fleet to be incompatible with others while software fixes are trialled and rolled out and can't be coupled.

I still remember when we were told only the cabs had air-con.... because they'd been driving around with the saloon windows open in hot weather.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Putting all that aside, I also don't understand the logic of "some trains are wired differently" > "it's not possible to run any trains in multiple."

But unless you know which units are wired differently from others, you can't rely on any particular pairing being possible so cannot roster any coupling - at least not in service, out on the road. However, it may be possible, with some shunting, to find a workable pairing when at the depot.

 

[800001]

But unless you know which units are wired differently from others, you can't rely on any particular pairing being possible so cannot roster any coupling - at least not in service, out on the road. However, it may be possible, with some shunting, to find a workable pairing when at the depot.

If units are wired differently, something has gone seriously wrong at the Stadler factory

a) in production of units
b) in quality control
c) testing of units before leaving factory

If true that the are wires differently it doesn't show Stadler in a good light.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If units are wired differently, something has gone seriously wrong at the Stadler factory

a) in production of units
b) in quality control
c) testing of units before leaving factory

If true that the are wires differently it doesn't show Stadler in a good light.

I seem to recall this happened with the 777s. They were built in two different factories and the wiring had been done differently at the two. Must have been resolved by now though ?.

 

[800001]

I seem to recall this happened with the 777s. They were built in two different factories and the wiring had been done differently at the two. Must have been resolved by now though ?.

You would of thought so, I mean surely there is a plan/instruction showing what goes where etc

 

[Peter Sarf]

You would of thought so, I mean surely there is a plan/instruction showing what goes where etc

To add :- Even numbered 777s were built in one factory and odd numbered 777s at a different factory. That apparently caused the wiring difference precluding multiple units operating in pairs.

However, this morning (up until 06:30) seven pairs of 777s have run and they are not all odd+odd or even+even. So IF there was a problem then it has been resolved.

One thing I am reminded of is how many miss-givings and teething problems with the 777s there were discussed and yet now it all seems insignificant.

I feel sure that given time the 398s will also settle down and prove OK.

Some of the issues are just reluctance to change (and how it is handled), the teething problems that seem to be standard with new fleets and new technology or implementations of it. It will all blow over but, obviously, the sooner the better.

 

[AdamWW]

But unless you know which units are wired differently from others, you can't rely on any particular pairing being possible so cannot roster any coupling - at least not in service, out on the road. However, it may be possible, with some shunting, to find a workable pairing when at the depot.

I was rather assuming that it would be possible to determine how a unit was wired without having to do it by trial and error just by seeing if two trains would couple or not.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I was rather assuming that it would be possible to determine how a unit was wired without having to do it by trial and error just by seeing if two trains would couple or not.

In my book that would be trial and error. Possibly leading to damage.

The worst would be if there was more than just two versions of the wiring.

But this is really enough conjecture. IF there is a problem it will be sorted out.

 

[AdamWW]

In my book that would be trial and error. Possibly leading to damage.

We're in agreement - I just phrased it very badly.

"Just by seeing if two trains would couple" was meant to refer to the trial and error approach.

I'd have thought it ought to be possible to see how a train is wired at worst by poking around with a multimeter.

 

[TheWierdOne]

We're in agreement - I just phrased it very badly.

"Just by seeing if two trains would couple" was meant to refer to the trial and error approach.

I'd have thought it ought to be possible to see how a train is wired at worst by poking around with a multimeter.

Forgive the obvious question, but assuming you are talking about electrical damage, do train couplers not contain protective measures to prevent trains damaging each other’s electric systems in the event one train has a fault, or in this case, wiring that is sufficiently divergent so as to cause damage?

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Forgive the obvious question, but assuming you are talking about electrical damage, do train couplers not contain protective measures to prevent trains damaging each other’s electric systems in the event one train has a fault, or in this case, wiring that is sufficiently divergent so as to cause damage?

Good design would indicate they should have (it would not be trivial to do however, if you take into account mixing up 110V and 24V trains for example). Good design also indicates they should all be wired the same, so in the circumstances bets are off!

Ensuring that software mismatches don't cause permanent damage should be much easier to achieve, but there are so many more ways for it to be incompatible in the first place!

 

[Caaardiff]

So is it a "wiring" fault, or just incompatible software?
Modern trains are heavily reliant on computers these days so software can be updated.
Otherwise, as many have said, if its a wiring issue during build that seems like a Stadler problem to fix.

Its surprising how little bits of information are fed into this forum that creates big discussion, but is rarely followed up with further facts or updates.

 

[Chris125]

Its surprising how little bits of information are fed into this forum that creates big discussion, but is rarely followed up with further facts or updates.

Surely if it was half as bad as some posts have suggested you wouldn't be reading it here first, but on WalesOnline or the BBC website especially in an election year.

Now we have an up-to-date soundbite from someone actually working on a 398 it gets dismissed for being too positive!

 

[Caaardiff]

Surely if it was half as bad as some posts have suggested you wouldn't be reading it here first, but on WalesOnline or the BBC website especially in an election year.

Now we have an up-to-date soundbite from someone actually working on a 398 it gets dismissed for being too positive!

I think its probably gone under the radar from the media because there's not been any noticeable impact on the rail service. Journalists aren't particularly accurate on reporting on rail issues unless its blindingly obvious what the issue is and is affecting the general public.

The issues being posted on here can't actually be proven right or wrong because its supposedly coming from internal sources, which now have counter internal sources saying different things.

 

[John R]

I think its probably gone under the radar from the media because there's not been any noticeable impact on the rail service. Journalists aren't particularly accurate on reporting on rail issues unless its blindingly obvious what the issue is and is affecting the general public.

The issues being posted on here can't actually be proven right or wrong because its supposedly coming from internal sources, which now have counter internal sources saying different things.

Though the more pessimistic one is actually an ex - internal source, as they have admitted. So we are not getting a first hand view from them.

 

[AdamWW]

I think its probably gone under the radar from the media because there's not been any noticeable impact on the rail service. Journalists aren't particularly accurate on reporting on rail issues unless its blindingly obvious what the issue is and is affecting the general public.

And also it's in Wales which generally doesn't get much media coverage anyway.

 

[800001]

I've lost track with this project, when were the 398 fleet supposed to of entered passenger service?