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TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

craigybagel

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Scraping the barrel here, I'd hardly call a 10 second job of "installing" a yellow sticker a "modification"

Most of the delay would be in ordering and producing the stickers. That would take rather more than 10 seconds.

It all adds up: 10 seconds x two leaves x 3 doors x two sides x 36 units, plus the time to walk between doors and between units.

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Indeed, but it's very minor - and you'll struggle to find a fleet that doesn't require some degree of modification after original delivery. The 197s had lots of changes made - and indeed further changes are being made based on experience. It's hardly earth shattering.
Just a quick chat?

Conversion course, I'm guessing.
Where rolling stock is similar to others, a full training course isn't required - instead a shorter conversion course is all that is necessary. For example, within TfW if a driver already signs 150s then it's only a 1 day conversion course to sign 153s as well - whereas if a driver was only learning 153s and had no previous Sprinter experience, it would be to be a full course that would take longer. The same thing happened on the valleys with drivers signing 231s from scratch, and then subsequently going through a much shorter conversion course when they started working 756a.

That said, it's hardly news that Valley drivers will need a full training course to sign 398s. I don't think anyone ever expected a conversion to be sufficient, they are vastly different to every other unit in the fleet.
 
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WelshBluebird

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Just passed one on test at Dinas Rhondda. Almost missed it! Defo seems they are picking up the test runs if they are running during normal service time too now.
 

chargesmith

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With regards to speculation on the forum a few weeks ago that the 398s were not capable of running on OLE directly and could only use it to charge the onboard batteries, I found the following text in a publicly accessible TFW / Amey document:

The units are powered by 25kV overhead lines via a single pantograph on the middle vehicle, which also charges the batteries that provide traction power when operating over non- electrified parts of the CVL Network, and over the Network Rail Network through Cardiff Central.

Power source modes are:
1. Overhead Line Equipment (OLE): 25kV AC catenary power supply.
2. Permanently Earthed Sections (PES): catenary with no power, OnBoard Energy Supply (OBES) power supply.
3. Catenary-free sections: OBES power supply.
4. Battery charging zones: low power 25kV catenary for battery charging only

All four power source modes will be used on the CVL Network.

I wonder if there are low power zones built into the plans for specific areas (possibly new parts of the network that haven't been built yet such as Crossrail) or if this is simply a contingency i.e. If the OLE is running with reduced power the trains can still operate?
 

AdamWW

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I wonder if there are low power zones built into the plans for specific areas (possibly new parts of the network that haven't been built yet such as Crossrail) or if this is simply a contingency i.e. If the OLE is running with reduced power the trains can still operate?

I would imagine that this refers to short lengths of overhead wiring (or bar) in station platforms for charging purposes as currently installed (only?) in Caerphilly.

With regards to speculation on the forum a few weeks ago that the 398s were not capable of running on OLE directly and could only use it to charge the onboard batteries, I found the following text in a publicly accessible TFW / Amey document:

I think it is fairly clear that the bit in bold makes little sense from an electrical point of view as it would require batteries to be simultaneously charging and discharging. (Unless I suppose you took turns with multiple batteries but that would seem somewhat pointless).

The "running...directly" bit is perhaps more a matter of semantics, in that there was an argument previously that taking power from the catenary and feeding it to the motors isn't "direct" if it passes through a system which is also capable of charging batteries and drawing power from them even if at a given moment the power is completely bypassing the batteries.
 

Peter Sarf

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With regards to speculation on the forum a few weeks ago that the 398s were not capable of running on OLE directly and could only use it to charge the onboard batteries, I found the following text in a publicly accessible TFW / Amey document:

The units are powered by 25kV overhead lines via a single pantograph on the middle vehicle, which also charges the batteries that provide traction power when operating over non- electrified parts of the CVL Network, and over the Network Rail Network through Cardiff Central.

Power source modes are:
1. Overhead Line Equipment (OLE): 25kV AC catenary power supply.
2. Permanently Earthed Sections (PES): catenary with no power, OnBoard Energy Supply (OBES) power supply.
3. Catenary-free sections: OBES power supply.
4. Battery charging zones: low power 25kV catenary for battery charging only

All four power source modes will be used on the CVL Network.

I wonder if there are low power zones built into the plans for specific areas (possibly new parts of the network that haven't been built yet such as Crossrail) or if this is simply a contingency i.e. If the OLE is running with reduced power the trains can still operate?
I would say 4 means 398 stationary under simple catenery having its batteries charged. Possibly at a terminus or bay platform.
I would imagine that this refers to short lengths of overhead wiring (or bar) in station platforms for charging purposes as currently installed (only?) in Caerphilly.
Yes, I agree. Furthermore the metal overhead rails above the sidings at Taffs Well depot would seem to be for charging and keeping the batteries topped up.
I have not looked, but I bet there are similar charging rails at Treherbert.
I think it is fairly clear that the bit in bold makes little sense from an electrical point of view as it would require batteries to be simultaneously charging and discharging. (Unless I suppose you took turns with multiple batteries but that would seem somewhat pointless).
Makes sense - in electrical terms the electrons are either flowing one way or the other NOT both ways simultaneously. So the battery is, at any point in time, either being charged OR is discharging.
The "running...directly" bit is perhaps more a matter of semantics, in that there was an argument previously that taking power from the catenary and feeding it to the motors isn't "direct" if it passes through a system which is also capable of charging batteries and drawing power from them even if at a given moment the power is completely bypassing the batteries.
There has been this confusion over the detail of how the tram-trains actually use electricity. As a lay person I think it best to view what happens as a box with a connection to the overhead, a connection with the battery pack and a connection to the traction motors. There obviously will also be a connection giving hotel power to the trams (lights, aircon etc).

I doubt there is a simple direct connection from the overhead to the traction motors bypassing the batteries except via a switch (a drastic simplification) within the aforementioned "box".

The detail of what happens in the box is probably best described by an expert AND then it is up to most of us how well we digest the detailed description.
 
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Peter Sarf

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Treherbert has OLE but there is one of the same rails in the bay platform at Pontypridd.
True - I should have remembered Pontypridd.
Would they install the rails at treherbert sidings?
I assume the sidings at Treherbert are already wired ?.



Just to add. The overhead rails at Taffs Well depot are very discontinuous if I recall correctly. They are very short, just the straight the bits of the sidings that the trams park under iirc.
 

Northerngirl

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It’s 1,500 per unit, however the WA have supposedly reduced this under a dispensation agreement to allow the units get out quicker.

They went to the test track to have this done, but I think funding has been an issue again. So they came back early.

The current units out are fault free runs to accumulate this, and drivers are currently training, 4 days classroom and 12 hours handling.

Due to unit unavailability, drivers are currently having issues getting the hours in to pass out competent. So there’s already a backlog on those completing the classroom phase and into handling. They cannot simply do a short conversation course because of the nature of the units.

Stadler are saying that the majority of the issues are software related, but before they go out there’s a load of modifications they need to have, such as extending tables to be removed due to issues with health and safety concerns around hand entrapment.

The door mechanism is also visible, and yellow stickers need to be installed around these too.
I wonder who has decided to come up with that one. All the other stadlers seem to manage not to amputate limbs without stickers
 

chargesmith

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Where can we find the document?
This was the one I found, was found by a Google search so pretty sure it's a public document.

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The document also covers rescue and recovery and says this will be achieved with another unit as there will always be one in the vicinity.

This is different in my mind to being *only* recoverable with a 398 as previously speculated, it's just a fact that another unit will be nearby more often than not.

The fact of the matter is that 398s were moved around the UK in multiple ways, e.g. on lorries, by Class 20 locomotives with buffer coaches, but the other unit is readily available and less disruptive to the rest of the railway.
 

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positron

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Treherbert has OLE but there is one of the same rails in the bay platform at Pontypridd.
Oh interesting! That wasn't part of the original plans and I've often thought that seems like a missed opportunity, even if eventually it might not be used by many services it seemed useful to have. Anyone have a photo of it?


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They have OLE too don't they?
I know the platforms have OLE but the sidings might be wired slightly differently. The electrification map document version I've got has the 'Fixed overhead conductor' symbol for treherbert and rhymney sidings, the taffs well depot, Canton, and Caerphilly station.

It's possible that the sidings are actual wires rather than a fixed bar but they might still be some form of low power for charging.
 
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Peter Sarf

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Looks like there was a test run to Cardiff Bay this morning (according to RTT):

This ?

CLICK ON THE LINK - the text quoted is a mystery to me.
 

chargesmith

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This ?
Appears to be yes, have been multiple runs on second glance. For some reason I wasn't getting notifications from that thread even though I'm "watching" it.

Very promising. Hopefully means the wires are live, and they will be ready to enter service soon.
 

Peter Sarf

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Appears to be yes, have been multiple runs on second glance. For some reason I wasn't getting notifications from that thread even though I'm "watching" it.

Very promising. Hopefully means the wires are live, and they will be ready to enter service soon.
Even better if the wires into the bay are not live and so proves the batteries can get a 398 all the way from Cathays to the Bay and back as that would be a similar task as Catheys to the first bit of the wired City Line via Central.

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Internal Links will always display the text that is in post #1 of the linked page.
Thanks. I was a bit worried when I saw "I am a 23-year old blonde bombshell" !.
 

VR494

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If anyone is interested, the team today are conducting tests on the unit’s batteries. A 398 is currently working its way through a full days diagram on the Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay - Queen street circuit. Loaded with bags of gravel to simulate being under load, the team are looking for ways to maximise the battery capacity through use of the regeneration technology. Previous tests have highlighted they have limited holding time, of around 20 minutes. This is going to be an interesting day for the technical team trying their best to avoid keeping the batteries out of critical, especially without the wires.
 

Sterre

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Happened to see the 398 on its way down to the bay as I was walking up Lloyd George Avenue about an hour ago. No pantograph up so definitely on battery regardless of whether the wires are live.
 

Snow1964

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If anyone is interested, the team today are conducting tests on the unit’s batteries. A 398 is currently working its way through a full days diagram on the Pontypridd - Cardiff Bay - Queen street circuit. Loaded with bags of gravel to simulate being under load, the team are looking for ways to maximise the battery capacity through use of the regeneration technology. Previous tests have highlighted they have limited holding time, of around 20 minutes. This is going to be an interesting day for the technical team trying their best to avoid keeping the batteries out of critical, especially without the wires.
I wonder how much ambient temperature affects this. It is close to 16c today.

An electric car at 16c often goes about 15-20% further than on a cold winters day.

If get same effect with tram batteries (and part of it is due to vehicle saloon heating, which is probably not turned on full today) then unless they have a 20% margin over critical level, testing on a warmish day is not going to give good year round range results
 

chargesmith

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An electric car at 16c often goes about 15-20% further than on a cold winters day.
This is true but can be minimised with pack conditioning in newer cars and will also depend on the battery chemistry on the trains, which could be different from what you'd find in electric cars as it's designed for a totally different duty cycle.

Either way the runs today will give them data on how to maximise efficiency without degrading the timekeeping.

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Happened to see the 398 on its way down to the bay as I was walking up Lloyd George Avenue about an hour ago. No pantograph up so definitely on battery regardless of whether the wires are live.
If that is the case then the distance ran on batteries is quite far - as it's going Pontypridd - Bay - Queen Street - Bay - Pontypridd, I calculate the off wire distance to be 7.3 miles.

They could be using the pantograph on alternating runs though.
 
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Bob Price

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I nipped down this afternoon and took some video of the unit entering and exiting Cardiff Bay station. Spoke to one of the crew and he said they had a few technical issues with multiple running but they are the best train they have by a long way. BTW the trains were filled with bags of ballast!

YouTube link here:
 

AdamWW

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I nipped down this afternoon and took some video of the unit entering and exiting Cardiff Bay station. Spoke to one of the crew and he said they had a few technical issues with multiple running but they are the best train they have by a long way. BTW the trains were filled with bags of ballast!

Probably less hassle than the normal sort of passenger.

Here it is at Radyr doing an impersonation of a tilting train.

At the platform there was a bit of a gap at the front door with the step out - hardly surprising given the curvature and that the 756s are the same.

1777822667330.png
 

Cardiff123

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Spoke to one of the crew and he said they had a few technical issues with multiple running but they are the best train they have by a long way.
That's a very bold statement to make at this stage. I hope the 398s perform well and are a success, but I think by far the trains that get the award for being TfW's best ever trains are the 231s and 756s.
 

StripeyNick

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Thanks to a post by Bob elsewhere, I was able to catch 398024 at Cardiff Bay around 1830
 

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