TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[Carlisle]

C

 

[Woolos 22]

1 tram in public passenger service between Pontypridd and Cardiff bay to a politician would mean they are in be in service .
This would mean management at Pontypridd could use it to go to government at Cathays and then to the senedd members at cardiff bay.

 

[chargesmith]

Provided the wires go live soon I think May is still achievable for passenger service.

Initially only one unit will be running and they only need 3 to run all the services between Pontypridd and the Bay.

Staff competency requirements will also likely only be single digits especially early on.

 

[D365]

That's a good question. I've come across electric cars that do their charge readings based on either a full discharge, or off a smaller "usable capacity" with a reserve buffer you can use in an emergency that isn't shown in the official range calculation.

In a car it makes more sense to do this to "idiot-proof" it, less so in a train where you always have professional drivers who are trained on exactly how the unit works.

Train drivers should not be doing battery range calculations. But that's an entirely different discussion in itself.

 

[Cardiff123]

Given how poor industrial relations have been on our railways over the last decade any politician promising a state of the art metro replacing conventionally operated DMU services devoid of any strikes or disputes along the way as they did in Wales would always likely face notable limitations on what was achievable.

Which is why on the TAM lines there is the fudge that we have, tram-trains operating on heavy rail infrastructure, with a driver and fully safety critical guard on every service, with the promise of 4tph and a very short section of street running in the Bay to justify the tram-trains over Flirts.
IIRC, the Rhymney line stayed full heavy rail operation with Flirts due to at the time of the franchise award in 2017, coal trains still running from Cwmbargoed and the need for through running to Penarth, Barry & Bridgend.

 

[crosscity]

The 20's arrived back at Kings Norton Yard this afternoon after spending the last week dragging new Tyne & Wear Metro light rail units from Dollands Moor (at the UK end of the Channel Tunnel) to Pelaw, Newcastle. I think this augers well for their use with the 398 (398032?). Fingers crossed!

I'm afraid it didn't happen. HST Power Cars went to Old Dalby this morning, not the 20's.

 

[StripeyNick]

I'm afraid it didn't happen. HST Power Cars went to Old Dalby this morning, not the 20's.

Could still be the 20s. They've swapped them out overnight before

 

[CarrotPie]

I find it slightly hard to believe that someone who seems to be obviously internal to TfW would make these claims on a public forum. Some of the detail on here, if true, would almost certainly count as bringing into disrepute so either naïve, brave, stupid or perhaps Chinese whispers from someone else.

And interestingly all of the posts questioning the user's sources go mysteriously unanswered, whereas all the posts that are, for want of a better phrase, "lapping it up" (I don't mean that in a negative way) are...

I bet that push/pull DRA gets changed for a twist one! Right next to the door open button is asking for trouble!

Yes, I thought it was intersting that door release seems to be just one button. Obviously the rest of Europe gets away with singular buttons/switches/joysticks, but the UK seem so devoted to the two-button principle...

 

[ExRes]

Could still be the 20s. They've swapped them out overnight before

From a comment on Flickr it seems the power cars went back to Kings Norton with no 398

 

[Tom125]

The announcements now are likely down to the timing of the election cycle.

As a public body I suspect TFW are not allowed to make any announcements a few months before the election that could influence how people could vote (I think it's called the purdah period at a UK level).

So even if the units magically entered service before early May I don't think they could even acknowledge it.

Correct: purdah begins on the 8th April when the Senedd is formally dissolved and continues up until the end of polling day in May.

 

[bradleyd]

When I was heading to work this morning, I saw one of these trains going through Treforest to the north, looked on RTT, and saw it was on there as a 3Q headcase. I also saw that there was another one due going south at 19:02 (which is just after my train home arrives) so I was hopingni could seenit and get some photos. Nothing seems to have appeared tho.

Is there any way of telling in advance whether one may be running or not? Friday would be perfect if there were any in the daytime as im on my day off

 

[gazthomas]

s there any way of telling in advance whether one may be running or not? Friday would be perfect if there were any in the daytime as im on my day off

If you put tomorrow's date and all day in to Real Time Trains for Trefforest you will see various STP paths running tomorrow

 

[bradleyd]

If you put tomorrow's date and all day in to Real Time Trains for Trefforest you will see various STP paths running tomorrow

I'd done that for today, but the ones it said (3q33), nothing turned up. Am waiting here at Treforest until 7:30 To see whether 3Q25 appears

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I'd done that for today, but the ones it said (3q33), nothing turned up. Am waiting here at Treforest until 7:30 To see whether 3Q25 appears

For 3Q25 you can work backwards and see it forms off 3Q24 which seems not to have run today so it won't show up.

Likewise 3Q33 runs off 3Q32 <- 3Q31 <- 3Q30 (3Q30 1631 Taffs Well Depot to Aberdare) which also didn't run.

 

[bradleyd]

For 3Q25 you can work backwards and see it forms off 3Q24 which seems not to have run today so it won't show up.

Likewise 3Q33 runs off 3Q32 <- 3Q31 <- 3Q30 (3Q30 1631 Taffs Well Depot to Aberdare) which also didn't run.

Thank you. Will look tomorrow and hopefully be able to intercept one at some point, or on friday

 

[P156KWJ]

From a comment on Flickr it seems the power cars went back to Kings Norton with no 398

That's correct, they came back empty handed and today's moves to / from Pengam are caped.

 

[ExRes]

That's correct, they came back empty handed and today's moves to / from Pengam are caped.

Thanks @P156KWJ Seems rather strange, that's two 'transfers' running that have been cancelled if I'm correct and, of course, two wasted round trips for the RA set, do you know if there's any reason for the cancellations?

Thanks

 

[Avowedsevern]

I fully believe the pessimistic claims being made in this thread... I recently (relatively speaking) had a chat off-the-record with someone in TfW who made very similar claims to the ones listed by VR494.

If people recall the initial shutdown of the lines (e.g. the Treherbert line), TfW operated on a "pre-planned additive delays are better than a big pre-announced one" policy, that is they tend to trickle out delays (usually 6 months or so) instead of announcing upfront that it's going to be one big delay of years etc. They appear to be following the same procedures with the 398's. They knew back in early 2025 that they wouldn't be ready for a very, very long time. They know now that they won't be fully ready until mid-2028. But they can't/won't announce that outright.

 

[CapitalStar378]

I fully believe the pessimistic claims being made in this thread... I recently (relatively speaking) had a chat off-the-record with someone in TfW who made very similar claims to the ones listed by VR494.

If people recall the initial shutdown of the lines (e.g. the Treherbert line), TfW operated on a "pre-planned additive delays are better than a big pre-announced one" policy, that is they tend to trickle out delays (usually 6 months or so) instead of announcing upfront that it's going to be one big delay of years etc. They appear to be following the same procedures with the 398's. They knew back in early 2025 that they wouldn't be ready for a very, very long time. They know now that they won't be fully ready until mid-2028. But they can't/won't announce that outright.

Whilst it's very tempting to go along with the rumours, I do wonder how it would take over 2 more years more to get the 398s into service. What is the issue that would cause such a delay?

 

[VR494]

Whilst it's very tempting to go along with the rumours, I do wonder how it would take over 2 more years more to get the 398s into service. What is the issue that would cause such a delay?

The issue is the 398 product, it’s so unreliable and is unfortunately inadequate for the environment and network it’s going to operate on.

They’ve also been sat around for so long they are quite frankly useless, and only the latter ones off the production line seem to be working, and that’s when they want to.

The valleys is a niche environment, the track bed sits alongside many riverbanks for one, which combined with the microclimates leads to some challenging track conditions at times. Not to mention the distance these things have to cover, over steep gradients. The term tram-train is also a clue, running them for a few 100 yards on a city network of heavy rail would probably work out fine. But not a 46 mile round trip to the top of the valleys, over and over.

They are so light and have so much power, they are locking up under braking and struggling when in multiple. And in reality if they ever do come out, that’s all they are going to replace is a 4 car 756 as a 6 car. Yes they are bigger than a pacer, but passengers have now lost toilet facilities to counter for a vanity project down the bay. Customers on the Rhymney line meanwhile which is no different, and Coryton which would be ideal for these have flirts. The heads of the valley will still be 2 an hour, just a 6 car tram with 3 cars here and there. There will be no 4 and hour, unless you live near Trefforest.

You also have to add up 36 units at over 1000hrs of fault free running, and that’s going to take a while, especially when they keep failing. Add into the mix trade union agreements, disputes and overlooked regulations, limited access to funds, you soon have a problem, and this is a big one!

It’s common knowledge among staff that these things aren’t really working out, we even know that these tests are being performed under reduced conditions because of pressure to get them out. No one wants them, the valleys need workhorse traction, and that is the flirts. They are the only thing that can just about work properly with the set up they have installed.

No one wants to bring a company into disrepute, but the only ones doing that at the moment are the Welsh government, who are forcing the staff at tfw into an unachievable position. And it’s those staff that are going to have to take the blunt end of it.

 

[Geeves]

I guess the additional problem is that if the 398s do end up being the failure it seems to be heading for what else could use the expensive purpose built depot?

That would be a double whammy as it's been stated on here that the depot cannot accept regular traffic due to the way its been built with that very sharp entrance curve.

 

[VR494]

I guess the additional problem is that if the 398s do end up being the failure it seems to be heading for what else could use the expensive purpose built depot?

That would be a double whammy as it's been stated on here that the depot cannot accept regular traffic due to the way its been built with that very sharp entrance curve.

You are correct there, at a cost of 100m. If the tram-trains turn out to be the next APT train project of this century, the depot is mothballed as well.

 

[nwales58]

It is puzzling how such obvious rubbish is running around in substantial fleets for over a decade with no obvious reliability problems, 75 in Karlsruhe doing long distances at speed on heavy rail routes, 30 or so around Chemnitz, Saarbrücken, then there’s Szeged, Aarhus, even Sheffield…

So what is different in TfW land? The reliance on batteries?

 

[Envoy]

Regarding the lack of toilets; was it not the case that prior to the introduction of the 150’s in the mid 80’s, that the valleys had what were known as suburban DMU’s and that these did not have toilets?

 

[John R]

Regarding the lack of toilets; was it not the case that prior to the introduction of the 150’s in the mid 80’s, that the valleys had what were known as suburban DMU’s and that these did not have toilets?

That’s correct. (But maybe we’ve had the toilet discussion so many times that we should resist going over it yet again.)

 

[chargesmith]

Whilst it's very tempting to go along with the rumours, I do wonder how it would take over 2 more years more to get the 398s into service. What is the issue that would cause such a delay?

Infrastructure delays due to funding issues are the biggest reason. Once the last bit of electrification goes live the only barriers left are the units performing well enough to enter service and staff being trained to use them.

Personally I don't think the rumours are true. Other information that has come from the same source makes me think the information is not reliable. I'm no expert on the matter but I've seen stuff that I believe to be incorrect, so let's just say the vibes are off for me. Either way we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Cardiff123]

Infrastructure delays due to funding issues are the biggest reason. Once the last bit of electrification goes live the only barriers left are the units performing well enough to enter service and staff being trained to use them.

I don't think infrastructure delays are the reason on the TAM lines. These lines were electrified and completed first and have been ready for 398s since autumn 2024, when the Flirts entered service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2026 ==

The issue is the 398 product, it’s so unreliable and is unfortunately inadequate for the environment and network it’s going to operate on.

They’ve also been sat around for so long they are quite frankly useless, and only the latter ones off the production line seem to be working, and that’s when they want to.

The valleys is a niche environment, the track bed sits alongside many riverbanks for one, which combined with the microclimates leads to some challenging track conditions at times. Not to mention the distance these things have to cover, over steep gradients. The term tram-train is also a clue, running them for a few 100 yards on a city network of heavy rail would probably work out fine. But not a 46 mile round trip to the top of the valleys, over and over.

They are so light and have so much power, they are locking up under braking and struggling when in multiple. And in reality if they ever do come out, that’s all they are going to replace is a 4 car 756 as a 6 car. Yes they are bigger than a pacer, but passengers have now lost toilet facilities to counter for a vanity project down the bay. Customers on the Rhymney line meanwhile which is no different, and Coryton which would be ideal for these have flirts. The heads of the valley will still be 2 an hour, just a 6 car tram with 3 cars here and there. There will be no 4 and hour, unless you live near Trefforest.

You also have to add up 36 units at over 1000hrs of fault free running, and that’s going to take a while, especially when they keep failing. Add into the mix trade union agreements, disputes and overlooked regulations, limited access to funds, you soon have a problem, and this is a big one!

It’s common knowledge among staff that these things aren’t really working out, we even know that these tests are being performed under reduced conditions because of pressure to get them out. No one wants them, the valleys need workhorse traction, and that is the flirts. They are the only thing that can just about work properly with the set up they have installed.

No one wants to bring a company into disrepute, but the only ones doing that at the moment are the Welsh government, who are forcing the staff at tfw into an unachievable position. And it’s those staff that are going to have to take the blunt end of it.

So do TfW have a contingency plan in place if the 398s are indefinitely delayed? Presumably the only viable solution is to extend the life of 10 or so 150s for Rhymney to Bridgend & Barry Island by paying for C6 overhauls? Or re-train Rhymney crews on 153s.

 

[chargesmith]

I don't think infrastructure delays are the reason on the TAM lines. These lines were electrified and completed first and have been ready for 398s since autumn 2024, when the Flirts entered service.

The Bay line needs to be electrified to support the 398s. It's quite far from Gabalfa to the Bay and back again without any OLE, I'll have to look up the exact distance though.

Update: It's around 2.9 miles from Gabalfa to the Bay so nearly a six mile round trip.

 

[Daniel Boone]

The Bay line needs to be electrified to support the 398s. It's quite far from Gabalfa to the Bay and back again without any OLE, I'll have to look up the exact distance though.

Update: It's around 2.9 miles from Gabalfa to the Bay so nearly a six mile round trip.

I wouldn't imagine this is relevant for those services that won't run to the bay, Merthyr-Aberdare 'superloop' for instance.

 

[chargesmith]

I wouldn't imagine this is relevant for those services that won't run to the bay, Merthyr-Aberdare 'superloop' for instance.

It's not, but it makes sense to start with the Bay services especially early on when the fleet will encounter new service issues (as happened with the 756s early on) but you can't run them on that route until the Bay wires go live.