TFW 2024 Timetable consultation.

[fishwomp]

A more joined-up plan would have used Filton Aerodrome as a larger South West airport hub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Filton_Airport



As is Bristol Airport stays non-accessible by rail to the south and Cardiff is stuck competing from its own poorly accessible location.

The Filton ship sailed a long time ago now but it reminds us that trying to focus on "Welsh" solutions need not be the best plan.

Quite! Filton would have been two birds with one stone: still a only/best option for Devon and Cornwall, but with added rail connectivity and reduced distance and a huge jump in connectivity to Swindon, Cheltenham, Gloucester, South Wales.

 

[anthony263]

Cardiff hopefully will start picking up . Play are starting flights in October there's been a lot of interest especially as it offers quicker access to the US from Cardiff than by going via Amsterdam. Klm supposed to be increasing their flights back to 3 per day soon

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Almost everyone I know here in Cardiff, including me, uses Bristol.

 

[Envoy]

So, you are an airline boss and Cardiff Airport pitches to you that you should start services to that airport. You ask about the public transport from the airport and the reply is that there is one bus per hour to Cardiff and it takes almost 2 hours via a circuitous route. Then you are told that a shuttle bus runs the 2 miles to Rhoose station and combined with the train, it takes 42 minutes to Cardiff BUT the trains are only hourly - every other hour on Sundays. The train also connects at Bridgend with the mainline for services to Swansea and the west.

It does not look good does it? If the Welsh Government really cared about the Airport they would have told TfW to boost services on this line as soon as possible. (Perhaps they are more concerned about Wales saving the planet from climate change)?

Aside from the Airport, let us not forget the growing population at St.Athan (the same airport shuttle bus takes people to Rhoose station) plus Llantwit Major. The Vale Coast Line also provides a direct link between the large town of Barry and Bridgend for the mainline to the west - thus avoiding going in the wrong direct east to Cardiff in order to go west.

 

[Dai Corner]

There was a frequent, fast, direct bus service between central Cardiff and the airport , the Trawscymru T9, but hardly anyone used it so it was withdrawn.

 

[Topological]

The even harsher truth is that in 3 hours from Cardiff you are in the terminal at Heathrow.

Trying to run an airport entirely for South Wales is not going to work, especially one as remote as Cardiff. Filton would have worked as transport could have been easily provided.

It would probably be better to claim green credentials and simply close Cardiff. Some savings could be used to promote better services for inbound tourists and investors from Bristol / Birmingham / Heathrow

 

[CapitalStar378]

Why not use the train - it takes 1h15 including the shuttle bus to airport front door, and is hourly.. , the bus is almost never going to be faster than waiting for the next train. A taxi for the 12 miles from central Cardiff also won't cost much more than public transport if travelling in a group of 3-4.

So, nope, public transport is not the cause of Cardiff's woes. It has a large population nearby, all west Wales, Swansea and the Port Talbot/Neath/Bridgend/Newport etc catchment. Bristol is nabbing this with a weaker catchment area.


Plenty of other airport connections have this problem but seem to get a lot of traffic (eg. how many services an hour between Bimingham Airport and Banbury/Oxford/Reading.. - and I for one use it and there are plenty of others doing so!!)

If necessary it should be considered against all the other TFW priorities - maybe they could do some sort of "review of shape of future services" and publish it for consulation/feedback?


No. It's a good view. There's a fixed amount of money, unless you are bringing in new revenue - and without the extra money, you're taking it from another place.

You think it's a good view and you're entitled to that, I absolutely don't. Bristol has very frequent dedicated coaches from south Wales as well as good and frequent buses from Temple Meads and the city centre. Cardiff doesn't have the same connectivity even with Cardiff and the surrounds.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The even harsher truth is that in 3 hours from Cardiff you are in the terminal at Heathrow.

Trying to run an airport entirely for South Wales is not going to work, especially one as remote as Cardiff. Filton would have worked as transport could have been easily provided.

It would probably be better to claim green credentials and simply close Cardiff. Some savings could be used to promote better services for inbound tourists and investors from Bristol / Birmingham / Heathrow

Was also going to add that you can get a direct service to Birmingham Newstreet that takes 2 hours (I know it’s with *THAT* overcrowded operator) and then can catch one of the 8 trains per hour between Newstreet and International, a journey of just 9 minutes. So even if you need to wait 10 minutes for a train, you can be there in less than 2 and a half hours.

 

[Topological]

Was also going to add that you can get a direct service to Birmingham Newstreet that takes 2 hours (I know it’s with *THAT* overcrowded operator) and then can catch one of the 8 trains per hour between Newstreet and International, a journey of just 9 minutes. So even if you need to wait 10 minutes for a train, you can be there in less than 2 and a half hours.

Those who really want to have "Wales" in their trip could jump on a 153 and change at Wilmslow

IF using Manchester Aiport though I would recommend changing at Piccadilly for the trip back to Cardiff though.

 

[fishwomp]

You think it's a good view and you're entitled to that, I absolutely don't. Bristol has very frequent dedicated coaches from south Wales as well as good and frequent buses from Temple Meads and the city centre. Cardiff doesn't have the same connectivity even with Cardiff and the surrounds.

I think it's good enough - actually better - than the airport earns for the flight volume, but it's the local population of Rhoose and surrounds that actually use it. It's a busy enough station with 150,000 entries/exits - 500 a day, for 18 trains each way a day, is not bad. 20% were season tickets - so either airport staff or locals heading to Cardiff, rather than airline passengers. Similar numbers of passengers as Bargoed (2x hr), Pencoed (1x / hour), or Knottingley (2x/hour). It might justify on its own merits, not on airport merits.

 

[Bikeman78]

There was a frequent, fast, direct bus service between central Cardiff and the airport , the Trawscymru T9, but hardly anyone used it so it was withdrawn.

Going back further, Cardiff Bus used to used to run a half hourly fast service to the airport. It was seriously cut back when the trains started running to Rhoose.

 

[anthony263]

Going back further, Cardiff Bus used to used to run a half hourly fast service to the airport. It was seriously cut back when the trains started running to Rhoose.

VOG line killed the X91.

An hourly X50/X91 service to Cardiff along with a half hourly VOG service is a must.

TFW will have enough units to divert one of the 3tph to Barry Island to Bridgend to give both lines 2tph.

Could also employ a unit to run a 2tph shuttle between Barry and Barry Island to connect with theVOG trains do Barry Island branch still gets 4tph.no meed to use a 756 just get a cheap pair of battery class 230s

The T9 could be very busy at times I can vouch for it as a driver and customer. What you'd ideally need is a extra train over the Vog from Bridgend and Cardiff around 0440 and a train after 2300. Buses should be a 24/7 service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Could also employ a unit to run a 2tph shuttle between Barry and Barry Island to connect with theVOG trains do Barry Island branch still gets 4tph.no meed to use a 756 just get a cheap pair of battery class 230s

You make that last bit sound so simple… but the current 230s they have don’t work, there aren’t any 230s available and can more be made with Vivarail bust (?), and TfW really don’t need any more microfleets. And yes, it would be a separate microfleet, because Canton would need its own pair of them, they couldn’t be pooled with the Borderlands ones.

A 756 though, if they have enough, sure.

 

[Lurcheroo]

You make that last bit sound so simple… but the current 230s they have don’t work, there aren’t any 230s available and can more be made with Vivarail bust (?), and TfW really don’t need any more microfleets. And yes, it would be a separate microfleet, because Canton would need its own pair of them, they couldn’t be pooled with the Borderlands ones.

A 756 though, if they have enough, sure.

Whilst that is a problem all by itself, The biggest issue, is that TFW absolutely can not, under any circumstance, increase their operating costs. This means any additional rolling stock is pretty much entirely out of the question.
There would have to be a serious business case for it.

 

[strettonarms96]

Now the consultation has closed, do we have any guesses/ideas as to what any of the concessions may be / sweeteners given by TfW? When will we find out?

 

[Llandudno]

Now the consultation has closed, do we have any guesses/ideas as to what any of the concessions may be / sweeteners given by TfW? When will we find out?

At a guess none!

 

[BenBracken]

From first glance it looks like the late night service to Milford Haven is being reinstated? I went to London this week and had to go from Carmarthen as I couldn’t get back from Paddington after 6pm. But I remember there always used to be a late night service that got back about midnight. Not sure why it was withdrawn but it looks to be there on the new proposals.

 

[Jez]

Has anything been said about the Saturday timetable between Carmarthen Swansea and Cardiff? If the same trains in the middle.of the day are withdrawn its going to be incredibly busy on the other services knowing the amount of people who go to Cardiff for shopping and leisure and nights out on a Saturday.

 

[berneyarms]

From first glance it looks like the late night service to Milford Haven is being reinstated? I went to London this week and had to go from Carmarthen as I couldn’t get back from Paddington after 6pm. But I remember there always used to be a late night service that got back about midnight. Not sure why it was withdrawn but it looks to be there on the new proposals.

Only on Friday which is already there.

 

[berneyarms]

Reported in the Cambrian News that some of the cuts will not go ahead after all.

Rail chiefs to amend timetable plans

RAIL chiefs at Transport for Wales say they have listened to feedback over plans to change train timetables.

www.cambrian-news.co.uk

RAIL chiefs at Transport for Wales say they have listened to feedback over plans to change train timetables.

In April, the Welsh Government owned rail operator announced changes that would have seen cuts on the Cambrian Coast line between Machynlleth and Pwllheli and further delays to a long-promised hourly service between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury.

Transport for Wales says plans to run one train an hour to Aberystwyth will remain a summer only plan between March and September and will not be introduced in winter months.

They will however add one more train at 4.30pm from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth all year round.

TfW said: "This is because of a known capacity issue on 17:30 train from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth.

"TfW aim to introduce this extra train in May 2025 but is subject to agreement with other operators and Network Rail. "The wider one train per hour will come in from March 2026."

This is 14 years after the promise of an hourly train service was first made.

TfW said there was a 'significant response' to plans to cut the 8.52am Machynlleth to Pwllheli service and return at 11.37am in the winter.

TfW said: "After much consideration, TfW opted to retain the 08:52 and 11:37 services all year around. "Passenger numbers and revenue will be closely monitored over the next winter period and reviewed when planning the December 2025 timetable."

The last evening services in the summer (March to December) - will run at the same times as they currently run between Pwllheli and Machynlleth (approximately 20:26 Pwllheli southbound and 21:47 Machynlleth northbound).

TfW says it will be doubling capacity on four key Cambrian Coast services from summer 2025 from two carriages to four carriages to help key local tourism businesses.

This will mean there are 560 more seats on Cambrian Coast services during the summer in comparison to Summer 2022.
Colin Lea, planning and performance director at Transport for Wales, said: “We have done our best to listen to key local feedback and knowledge and incorporate this into our decision making, as well as continue to progress with our original commitment of putting on more carriages on the Cambrian Coast Line services in the summer months; something that was trialled successfully in 2023.

“While this remains our intention, we still need to work closely with our industry partners in Network Rail before these changes can come into effect in future timetable changes.”

 

[Lurcheroo]

I am pleased they’ve rolled back some of the changes but I think it’s a great shame that the hourly service will be summer only and there will still be a cut to the last 2 services of an evening on the coast during winter.
To run these services in summer there has to be sufficient levels of Train crew and units despite this being the time of year where they are most stretched.
Which will just end up with lots of train crew sitting around doing nothing during winter and likely shelling out on rest day work to keep the services staffed in summer.
Seems like they won’t save as much as they think they will.
Especially as they will loose out on potential extra custom with the improved service frequency.

 

[ancientsolar]

Regarding Cardiff Airport - wouldn't it be nice if when the trams are operational, that we can have a spur onto PorthKerry Road just after the Viaduct.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Regarding Cardiff Airport - wouldn't it be nice if when the trams are operational, that we can have a spur onto PorthKerry Road just after the Viaduct.

Sorry, for what purpose ?

 

[BenBracken]

Any news on the HoWL? Are they reversing proposed the cuts in services?

 

[Starmill]

Interesting to see Summer now defined as March to December.

So in fact only around eight to ten weeks, January and February will be affected? Sounds like it'll save barely any money at all, just the diesel and maintenance miles. Surely the unit and crew will simply sit idle (or end up offsetting some shortage elsewhere, but that's of course not the point).

 

[anthony263]

Interesting to see Summer now defined as March to December.

So in fact only around eight to ten weeks, January and February will be affected? Sounds like it'll save barely any money at all, just the diesel and maintenance miles. Surely the unit and crew will simply sit idle (or end up offsetting some shortage elsewhere, but that's of course not the point).

Be nice if the roll back their decision not to run swanline hourly 0900-1600. Their excuse I'd they basing the decision on changing travel patterns.

Well as I've said people going to not use it if it's 2 hourly especially if services get cancelled or delayed especially now if they run to/from Pembroke Dock. F it ran hourly it should do people will use it. Stupid how Gowerton gets at least 2tph yet llansamlet is only a 2 hourly service. Traffic is bad from llansamlet into Swansea even on weekends. I'm frequently stuck in congestion when.im driving the 45 bus

 

[nwales58]

Part win.
But for people in Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech, Porthmadog, Criccieth Pwllheli this means the last train of the day is 3h earlier than now, from Cardiff at 1523, Birmingham 1622, Manchester 1530 from December to March. How is that acceptable?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Any news on the HoWL? Are they reversing proposed the cuts in services?

No.

Interesting to see Summer now defined as March to December.

So in fact only around eight to ten weeks, January and February will be affected? Sounds like it'll save barely any money at all, just the diesel and maintenance miles. Surely the unit and crew will simply sit idle (or end up offsetting some shortage elsewhere, but that's of course not the point).

It seems crazy to me as Machynlleth train crew. The hourly Cambrian service is March - September.

Part win.
But for people in Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech, Porthmadog, Criccieth Pwllheli this means the last train of the day is 3h earlier than now, from Cardiff at 1523, Birmingham 1622, Manchester 1530 from December to March. How is that acceptable?

Obviously only for 3 months at most, but I agree. It seems totally pointless and is going to drive people away from using the service year round as they will come to rely on another form of transport.

 

[nwales58]

Obviously only for 3 months at most, but I agree. It seems totally pointless and is going to drive people away from using the service year round as they will come to rely on another form of transport.

Yup. Before I retired I regularly used the last Blaenau or the last Pwllheli to get home from far away. Now it would mean an extra hotel night away or drive instead if I was well enough.

 

[strettonarms96]

Any update on the outcome of the consultation? Apart from the concessions made to the Cambrian? Seen a lot of noise recently about concerns re cuts to HOWL but will be interesting to see TfW response..