TfW 175 shortages

[Ribbleman]

I do think some of the members of this site are particularly sensitive to things like ride quality, and often neglect the fact that there is an element of subjectivity in there too. The same goes for seat comfort, for some firmness is a positive and for others a negative.

Some of the comments that new trains get on here would embarrass the Princess from the fairytale involving a pea!

I don’t think that it is unreasonable to expect that a new train would ride at least as well as one that entered service some 20 or 30 years earlier. We are paying what are probably the highest fares per mile in Europe and now have been landed with a generation of diesel units in the 19x family that are clearly deficient in the suspension department. A trip from Preston to Bradford or Barrow and back, one way in a 195 and the other in a 158 would demonstrate the point. Those who regularly travel in a 175 are in for a disappointment if they imagine that a 197 will provide a more comfortable journey.

 

[craigybagel]

Even a pair of 153's is preferable to the 150 (Appreciate that might be open for discussion, but the 150s do not have the luggage options in my experience)

I think a pair of 153s is marginally better than a 150 as I find them a bit more comfortable probably because they are used on more longer distance routes like HOWL than the 150s are (or at least are meant to be)

The big advantage with a 150 over 2 X 153s is the former has much better dwell times and acceleration from stations. On a good rail, you can just about keep to 175 timings with a 150. With 2 153s, you don't stand a chance, especially on a busy service.

 

[Krokodil]

Even a pair of 153's is preferable to the 150 (Appreciate that might be open for discussion, but the 150s do not have the luggage options in my experience)

A pair of 153s (yes, even a pair of PRM ones, both with large numbers of seats removed for the bog) has more seats, more toilets, more bike spaces and more luggage room than a 2 car 197. Progress, eh?

 

[Dai Corner]

A pair of 153s (yes, even a pair of PRM ones, both with large numbers of seats removed for the bog) has more seats, more toilets, more bike spaces and more luggage room than a 2 car 197. Progress, eh?

Which services, currently booked for pairs of 153s, are going to be 2 car 197s in future?

 

[Topological]

A pair of 153s (yes, even a pair of PRM ones, both with large numbers of seats removed for the bog) has more seats, more toilets, more bike spaces and more luggage room than a 2 car 197. Progress, eh?

The hope would be that any case where a pair of 153s substitutes for the 175 is going to be more than 2 car 197 when the 197s are running. Of course most pairs of 153 contain a single PRM and the second 153 does not have the toilet (or at least in my experience).

That the post PRM world has left insufficient toilets on most trains (except the 175 and 158) is a whole different debate. I try not to think what it will be like when the single toilet is out of use on a 4 hour journey.

Meanwhile, despite the MK4s now being used on the Marches and half the Marches diagrams not going West of Cardiff, there are still 175 shortages that mean the 150 option looms very real.

 

[Jez]

Which services, currently booked for pairs of 153s, are going to be 2 car 197s in future?

The only ones actually booked for 153s that will move to 197s will be Pembroke Dock, Shrewsbury to Crewe and Crewe to Chester. Everything else a 153 is booked to do other than the HOWL is in the Cardiff local routes for example Cardiff Bay or the City Line.

 

[185143]

The only ones actually booked for 153s that will move to 197s will be Pembroke Dock, Shrewsbury to Crewe and Crewe to Chester. Everything else a 153 is booked to do other than the HOWL is in the Cardiff local routes for example Cardiff Bay or the City Line.

Well, let's have Liverpool-Chester to start with.

That was usually 2x153 and is now a 197 diagram.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

1V94 0805 Holyhead to Cardiff is operated by 158823 this morning.

175108 this morning. .

 

[Jez]

Well, let's have Liverpool-Chester to start with.

That was usually 2x153 and is now a 197 diagram.

Yes that's correct. I didnt include that in the list as its already switched over to a 197 same as the Conwy Valley.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

A quick look at RTT and I counted 5 Sprinter substitutions on the Manchester to Cardiffs today although to be fair most of them are replacing Mk4 not 175s. I think 2 are replacing 175 booked working. But 2 175s are also replacing the MK4s so actually 175 availability looks better. It's the MK4 that seem to be letting the side down rather than the 175s.

 

[craigybagel]

But 2 175s are also replacing the MK4s so actually 175 availability looks better. It's the MK4 that seem to be letting the side down rather than the 175s.

To be fair there are only planned to be 3 MKIV sets in service at the moment, and all 3 are out on their booked diagrams today.

 

[Jez]

To be fair there are only planned to be 3 MKIV sets in service at the moment, and all 3 are out on their booked diagrams today.

All but one of the even hour departures from Manchester heading South were booked for a MK4 since the December Timetable with the remaining one booked for a 175 until the May timetable? So is still a big impact for the 175s and Sprinters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

According to RTT 0830 and 143o from Mancheter are 175 and 1030 1230 and 1830 150s. Plus.the booked 175 until May TT change on the 1630.

So i don't see how all are in service that should be ? With so Many Sprinters subbing something isn't right.

 

[craigybagel]

All but one of the even hour departures from Manchester heading South were booked for a MK4 since the December Timetable with the remaining one booked for a 175 until the May timetable? So is still a big impact for the 175s and Sprinters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

According to RTT 0830 and 143o from Mancheter are 175 and 1030 1230 and 1830 150s. Plus.the booked 175 until May TT change on the 1630.

So i don't see how all are in service that should be ? With so Many Sprinters subbing something isn't right.

0830 and 1630 are booked for 175s, regardless of what RTT shows. It's currently planned for this to remain the case until the September timetable change. In the May timetable change it should be going from a 2 car set to a 3 car. At present part of that diagram is worked by Shrewsbury drivers and there are currently no plans to train them on 67s.

Whilst the other even hour services between 0630 and 1830 are indeed booked for MKIVs, it's under the assumption that all sets have completed the necessary work, and that enough traincrew are trained up. As neither of those scenarios are currently in place TfW are only normally running 3 MKIV sets in service each day. Hopefully by the end of the current timetable period we'll see 5 sets in service every day. The MKIVs aren't so much "letting the side down", it's more it's been physically impossible, despite TfW's best efforts, to increase overnight from 2 diagrams a day to 5.

There is a shortage of 175s at present, for a variety of reasons, hence the additional Sprinter substitutions.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Weird to think that the northernmost station in Wales to be served by 175s from May will be Abergavenny.

 

[Jez]

0830 and 1630 are booked for 175s, regardless of what RTT shows. It's currently planned for this to remain the case until the September timetable change. In the May timetable change it should be going from a 2 car set to a 3 car. At present part of that diagram is worked by Shrewsbury drivers and there are currently no plans to train them on 67s.

Whilst the other even hour services between 0630 and 1830 are indeed booked for MKIVs, it's under the assumption that all sets have completed the necessary work, and that enough traincrew are trained up. As neither of those scenarios are currently in place TfW are only normally running 3 MKIV sets in service each day. Hopefully by the end of the current timetable period we'll see 5 sets in service every day. The MKIVs aren't so much "letting the side down", it's more it's been physically impossible, despite TfW's best efforts, to increase overnight from 2 diagrams a day to 5.

There is a shortage of 175s at present, for a variety of reasons, hence the additional Sprinter substitutions.

Thanks for explaining and the comment letting the side down was a figure of speech really and not directed at any person. it.seemed the issue was more with the MK4s than 175. I'm sure all is being done to get everything in place as soon as possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

Weird to think that the northernmost station in Wales to be served by 175s from May will be Abergavenny.

Yes I hasn't thought of that but it will be.

Crazy given the 175s were originally just used in the North and now it will just be the South for the end of their time on the Wales and Borders franchise.

 

[Philip]

Weird to think that the northernmost station in Wales to be served by 175s from May will be Abergavenny.

There is a Holyhead-Cardiff still booked as a 175 from May, the 10:3x from Holyhead, so not quite finished in North Wales going by the diagrams.

 

[AdamWW]

The only ones actually booked for 153s that will move to 197s will be Pembroke Dock, Shrewsbury to Crewe and Crewe to Chester. Everything else a 153 is booked to do other than the HOWL is in the Cardiff local routes for example Cardiff Bay or the City Line.

If 153s are now booked for the City Line that it is presumably fairly new, because for quite a while they've been listing 153 operated services as a disruption on Journeycheck. Maybe not for a few months though.

 

[Krokodil]

Which services, currently booked for pairs of 153s, are going to be 2 car 197s in future?

Crewe shuttles? Plus the long list of services where 153s regularly deputise.

The point was that even a pair of PRMed 153s offers more seats/toilets/luggage space/bike spaces than a 2 car 197. Here's a comparison (figures off the top of my head, corrections and missing data gratefully received)

Unit	Seats	Toilets	Luggage spaces	Bike spaces
150	128	1	0	4
153/0*2	118	2	2 (and they're pretty big)	4
158	128	2	4	2
175/0	125 (not counting tip-ups)	2	4	2
197/0	116	1	2	2

So when services between Birmingham and Holyhead are proposed to continue to be two coaches between Shrewsbury and Holyhead, ditto for other busy flows such as Machynlleth-Pwllheli (think Barmouth during the summer), this hardly ranks as an improvement in capacity on routes which have been suffering from severe overcrowding for 15 years.

What about longer sets? I've included the former Manchester Mk3 set to show the sort of capacity that used to be available (and which was well filled for the majority of the day, 1D34 used to leave Warrington basically full).

175/1	200ish	3	8	2
67+4*Mk3+DVT	280	8	8 (equiv of 16 DMU racks)	5
67+4*Mk4+DVT	223	4	7	5
67+5*Mk4+DVT	291	5	9 (can't remember size)	5
197/1	188/174	2	2/3	4

Manchester - North Wales services will continue to be three coaches between Chester and North Wales as at present, with only a few peak trains to Manchester strengthened. These services are rammed as things stand. If you can get a standing place, you're lucky, many people get left behind. Imagine that you've been on holiday to Prestatyn (no, me neither). You've just left your holiday camp on the Friday and walk to the station with your partner, three kids (the youngest in a buggy) and all of your luggage. Everyone else from several other holiday camps is following you. You get to the station to see the platform is packed, a train pulls in but not one of you can get on - everyone from the holiday camps at Abergele is already on, plus a handful from Rhyl who just about squeezed on, leaving the rest behind. You sit on your suitcases on the platform for roughly two hours and the 12:43 to Cardiff pulls in. Amazingly it is actually LHCS today (nothing failed on Canton this morning) so you can actually squeeze on. But you didn't want to go to Cardiff, you are going home to Manchester/Preston/Telford/wherever. So if you do give up and take this train just to make some progress, you will have to change in Chester or Shrewsbury as applicable.

Under the current proposals, train lengths for most flows along the NWC will remain as they already were. The only changes are that Cardiff services may be longer (still no confirmation of the length of non-LHCS services), and that there's a new service to Liverpool - but that's only two carriages so will already be full when it departs from Llandudno.

Of course most pairs of 153 contain a single PRM and the second 153 does not have the toilet (or at least in my experience).

If there's a PRM-lite one in the formation then it will have even more seats so outstrips the 2 car 197.

 

[Caaardiff]

Unit	Seats	Toilets	Luggage spaces	Bike spaces
150	128	1	0	4
153/0*2	118	2	2 (and they're pretty big)	4
158	128	2	4	2
175/0	125 (not counting tip-ups)	2	4	2
197/0	116	1	2	2

According to a TFW document issued during the Franchise changeover there's a few differences to what you've posted above.

150 - 111 + 7 tip up
153 (Single) - 58 + 4 tip up (Not sure if this is pre-PRM mods, if it is then that will be even less.
158 - 134 +4 tip up
175/0 118 + 16 tip up
197/0 116 + 5 tip up

 

[Kite159]

What about longer sets? I've included the former Manchester Mk3 set to show the sort of capacity that used to be available (and which was well filled for the majority of the day, 1D34 used to leave Warrington basically full).

175/1	200ish	3	8	2
67+4*Mk3+DVT	280	8	8 (equiv of 16 DMU racks)	5
67+4*Mk4+DVT	223	4	7	5
67+5*Mk4+DVT	291	5	9 (can't remember size)	5
197/1	188/174	2	2/3	4

Is that standard class seats for the Mk4 sets or the total number of seats including the fresh air carrying coach for 1st class?

 

[Krokodil]

According to a TFW document issued during the Franchise changeover there's a few differences to what you've posted above.

150 - 111 + 7 tip up
153 (Single) - 58 + 4 tip up (Not sure if this is pre-PRM mods, if it is then that will be even less.
158 - 134 +4 tip up
175/0 118 + 16 tip up
197/0 116 + 5 tip up

I was going by the figures on the covid precautions chart that was produced back in 2020. Both 150s and some 153s have of course now received PRM mods.

Anyway, whichever figures are used it is clear that 197s represent a significant loss in capacity compared with the 175s and 158s they are replacing. That there will be a few extra services and some routes will see doubling up of units won't be enough to deal with overcrowding.

Is that standard class seats for the Mk4 sets or the total number of seats including the fresh air carrying coach for 1st class?

All seats. First class was certainly popular on the 17:16 in Mk3 days, booking offices had to be barred from issuing on-the-day upgrades because the guards were ending up dealing with more passengers than seats. In the summer many guards end up declassifying 1st on the 14:30 from Chester, if indeed they can even physically get through the train which is often wedged.

 

[sd0733]

175007 joins the thermal incident club with another fire at Wilmslow this morning.

 

[AdamWW]

Anyway, whichever figures are used it is clear that 197s represent a significant loss in capacity compared with the 175s and 158s they are replacing. That there will be a few extra services and some routes will see doubling up of units won't be enough to deal with overcrowding.

Where has the space gone? Does this mean that the 197's have considerably more standing capacity? (In the wide doorways?)

 

[SuperLuke2334]

175007 joins the thermal incident club with another fire at Wilmslow this morning.

They ought to be withdrawn for safety checks or permanently now. That's 3 in a month

 

[sonic2009]

They ought to be withdrawn for safety checks or permanently now. That's 3 in a month

There's not enough to cover if they are withdrawn is there?

 

[CardiffKid]

There's not enough to cover if they are withdrawn is there?

If there's a genuine safety concern (which at the moment formally there isn't) they should be withdrawn regardless of available cover.

 

[anthony263]

If there's a genuine safety concern (which at the moment formally there isn't) they should be withdrawn regardless of available cover.

I heard the safety bodies are now expressing concerns . Problems seemed to have started since maintenance left Chester.

 

[Topological]

They need some more sidings at Wilmslow. Just passed and that reversing siding is getting full.

Credit to TFW/Northern for getting ticket acceptance in place after the TFW was turned round at Crewe.

 

[Dave91131]

I observed 175106 depart Shrewsbury very sluggishly one day last week, seemed to be running on a max of 2 out of 3 engines and was also fairly late.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

175007 joins the thermal incident club with another fire at Wilmslow this morning.

I bet that should have formed the 07:30 from Manchester that someone's tweeted on the TfW Twitter feed is cancelled.

 

[tomm]

Same as 114 last week on the 21st.