Indeed - I have relatives in Catford, so am aware of the usefulness of the West End connection.
Victoria is good, but there's no better sited station than Charing Cross.
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TFL Overground to take over Southeastern Metro?
- Thread starter JamesU2002
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Indeed - I have relatives in Catford, so am aware of the usefulness of the West End connection.
Victoria is good, but there's no better sited station than Charing Cross.
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urpert
Member
Shortlands is notorious for this (though they do have quite regular RPI pounces).
LLivery
Established Member
I struggle to see happening, but SE London is certainly unloved...
Sort out ticket barriers, deep clean the stations, have more staff around, brighten the fleet up, improve Sunday timetables.
It would be nice to see the station buildings opened up - far too much of it is boarded up. Catford Bridge would be great for a cafe/shop (a bit of rental income for the railway) and a waiting room. Same for Shortlands and many others.
SE doesn't try very hard with revenue at all. Forgetting ticket barriers, just more ticket machines at stations like Lower Sydenham would be useful; one for the entire station is rather poor. Same for Penge East - two machines on the London side (with a ticket office), but nothing on the country side. When I need to travel towards Kent, I need to walk over the footbridge bridge twice. If we're serious about accessibility, I should never have to climb stairs at a station with step free entrances just to pay for a ticket. If you're disabled, the other option at both stations is a 10-15 min walk around. Madness.
If the Abbey Wood example was repeated, any operator would surely gain not-so-insignificant amounts to fund station improvements. Brixton is certainly busier than the 1.1m entries/exits claimed. Catford Bridge is 2.7m and Greenwich claims 3.7m. None of these have barriers - lots of revenue potential, and that's without the housing developments all over SE London.
Sort out ticket barriers, deep clean the stations, have more staff around, brighten the fleet up, improve Sunday timetables.
It would be nice to see the station buildings opened up - far too much of it is boarded up. Catford Bridge would be great for a cafe/shop (a bit of rental income for the railway) and a waiting room. Same for Shortlands and many others.
SE doesn't try very hard with revenue at all. Forgetting ticket barriers, just more ticket machines at stations like Lower Sydenham would be useful; one for the entire station is rather poor. Same for Penge East - two machines on the London side (with a ticket office), but nothing on the country side. When I need to travel towards Kent, I need to walk over the footbridge bridge twice. If we're serious about accessibility, I should never have to climb stairs at a station with step free entrances just to pay for a ticket. If you're disabled, the other option at both stations is a 10-15 min walk around. Madness.
If the Abbey Wood example was repeated, any operator would surely gain not-so-insignificant amounts to fund station improvements. Brixton is certainly busier than the 1.1m entries/exits claimed. Catford Bridge is 2.7m and Greenwich claims 3.7m. None of these have barriers - lots of revenue potential, and that's without the housing developments all over SE London.
zwk500
Veteran Member
All entirely possible under any operator, tbf.
Totally agree this is madness.
One consideration on this point is that I think these stations still have the Victorian station buildings. Is there space in the entrances to put enough barriers in to allow the volume of passengers in and out? If not, is it worth the cost of rebuilding the stations to fit barriers in (if possible)?
You’re not wrong, but Brixton for example would be an absolute nightmare to barrier without completely rebuilding the station and the same with many along the route.
Again Abbey Wood is a good example, yet you forget that also came with disproportionate funding thanks to the introduction of Crossrail.
Why would TfL want the likes of Southeastern trashing their brand and reputation?
Mikey C
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Agreed most of the stations either have tiny buildings or non existent ones!
It would be massively constricting to just stick 2 gates in and make everyone queue for 5 minutes to get in and out
LLivery
Established Member
All of it really is possible under any operator. But having seen the WAGN - ONE/NXEA - AGA - LO transition on the Lea Valleys, I've got very little hope that it'll happen without TfL backing.
The highlighted bit of quotes is a real problem at Brixton especially. Seeing they've just rebuilt Kidbrooke without barriers or apart space for barriers is baffling. I've got no idea how they'd sort out Brixton, though I imagine the main entrance could have them at platform level. But if they can't, having enough stations on the route with barriers, would (in theory) force people to pay.
Which has been shown to work well elsewhere in London.
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But unrealistic if in the contract all extra revenue effectively goes to DfT but the cost of gating (including staffing) would be paid for by the TOC so no incentive for the TOC to do it!
zwk500
Veteran Member
Totally agree! It appears, on the surface, to have 2 relatively simple solutions though. Either the DfT pays for the barriers, or the TOC keeps the revenue! I'm sure it'll be more complex than that, because it always is...
Kilopylae
Member
I would have thought Gravesend was fairly obvious LO territory, aside from being outside the Greater London county?
zwk500
Veteran Member
Tbf, if TfL Rail are going to be operating to Reading, I don't see the GL county boundary being a significant problem. The discussion will be about where Gravesend makes sense operationally to end up. And tbh, whichever the boundary is drawn at of Dartford or Gravesend I'd expect a shake up of services as LO will want all-stations regular intervals every day (just a reduced frequency on Sundays for engineering). How achievable this is will be another question entirely.
It is that simple, but always left for the new franchise agreement rather than the Nth short direct award (in 7 years) because the gating would only be completed after the end of the award.
Brixton could be rebuilt given Network Rail are receiving large sums from adjacent high rise development.
Greenwich could easily have barriers within the main station building. Network Rail again own disused land beside eastbound platform. Develop or sell and revenue to do so. It would need sizable funding for all entrances but land sale could do assist.
Same at many other stations where massive local growth could help fund changes.
Kidbrooke another in the midst of mass development.
Woolwich and Lewisham aren't barriered in the evening.
Charlton isn't and lots of development in that area.
Lower Sydenham has new housing blocks beside station. Same story.
Plumstead is to be rebuilt, but no plans to staff full time or have barriers all day.
So many examples.
Thing is NR are just not good at it. SE doesn't push them and no real incentive.
TfL do push to maximise land and assets. They have an incentive - more homes also means more bus usage etc.
People always say a franchise let by DfT could do it all. Yet they never do. How long until the realisation the current model will not solve it.
Abbey Wood was up by 70 per cent as soon as barriers staffed. Not just due to new station. The old station had barriers but usually open, and they always left side gate open.
Greenwich could easily have barriers within the main station building. Network Rail again own disused land beside eastbound platform. Develop or sell and revenue to do so. It would need sizable funding for all entrances but land sale could do assist.
Same at many other stations where massive local growth could help fund changes.
Kidbrooke another in the midst of mass development.
Woolwich and Lewisham aren't barriered in the evening.
Charlton isn't and lots of development in that area.
Lower Sydenham has new housing blocks beside station. Same story.
Plumstead is to be rebuilt, but no plans to staff full time or have barriers all day.
So many examples.
Thing is NR are just not good at it. SE doesn't push them and no real incentive.
TfL do push to maximise land and assets. They have an incentive - more homes also means more bus usage etc.
People always say a franchise let by DfT could do it all. Yet they never do. How long until the realisation the current model will not solve it.
Abbey Wood was up by 70 per cent as soon as barriers staffed. Not just due to new station. The old station had barriers but usually open, and they always left side gate open.
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It's insane that these stations, all well-used and for lots of local journeys, are not barriered. It would be a huge revenue boost if done. Lewisham in the evenings is insane.
Gravesend makes sense due to being an outer terminus for ostensibly the Dartford services - now to Victoria. Hayes is supposedly getting 2tph to Victoria (will there be 4tph Vic-Nunhead-Lewisham?) - and I do recall TfL being keen on pushing the Brockley High Level station - which would be much more interesting @ 4tph each way than 2tph.
Gravesend makes sense due to being an outer terminus for ostensibly the Dartford services - now to Victoria. Hayes is supposedly getting 2tph to Victoria (will there be 4tph Vic-Nunhead-Lewisham?) - and I do recall TfL being keen on pushing the Brockley High Level station - which would be much more interesting @ 4tph each way than 2tph.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Do these stations all have barriers that are just left open at busy times or do they not have barriers at all?
Trains terminate at Dartford pretty easily and the routes can be very well contained. Would TFL take the few services down to Gravesend and take over all the intermediate stations too ? Dartford feels like a natural boundary because Oyster also ends at Dartford. SE could then run a more mainline service down from Vic/Cross and into Meadway by running semi fast and leaving all the Metro stuff to TfL. That way SE becomes a more Mainline Kent TOC.
Oyster also stops at Swanley. If Oyster ever got extended down to Sevenoaks I would hope that you could take either route to Sevenoaks.
Oyster / Contactless should exist across the whole region frankly (or country, if fares weren't bonkers) - separating London nd the home Counties does not make sense, as we've seen with numerous abatements on Dartford, Watford etc... hopefully in a post-pandemic world, we will innovative fares and ticketing - as weeklies/monthlies become less relevant. But build in discounts which can be actualized on a weekly basis, with contactless, perhaps.
londonteacher
Member
Can you take either route to Reading? I have never tried!
zwk500
Veteran Member
Doesn't appear so, no. However The two routes to Reading are run by different operators, rather than both by the same operator as would be the case here. You can't use Oyster at all at Reading, only contactless PAYG but it is valid on either GWR of TfL Rail.
Mikey C
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What was a bit farcical was removing CHX trains from the Greenwich line to remove conflict outside London Bridge, only to then send a Thameslink service down the Greenwich line instead!
The new London Bridge station is of course massive and really capacious, but it's not exactly designed for quick interchange between the through platforms, when compared to the old station. it's quite a trek down to bottom and back up again.
It's a mix though even with barriers a side gate is usually open.
I kept an eye out today and all stations from Deptford to Dartford I could see were open. Nothing unusual in that pre and post covid. It's DOO so no staff on board to check. Enforcement staff on trains are rare as hen's teeth.
It's easy to see on the train whether open at Greenwich, Maze Hill, Westcome Park, Charlton etc.
Just remembered Deptford is another quite new station rebuilt with no staff or barriers.
I agree (although TL is the middle set of LB tracks, CX the lowest) - Cannon St to Greenwich and onwards should be a self-contained metro service and at higher frequency than today.
urpert
Member
No barriers at all on the Hayes line or Vic-Orpington (apart from Bromley South and Orpington).
Snow1964
Established Member
Seems TfL have been given a 10 day extension to the Covid Finance bailout until 28 May
Handily takes it about week beyond the big Rail review, which suggests the rail review does involve something TfL related, otherwise why just 10 days
www.gov.uk
Handily takes it about week beyond the big Rail review, which suggests the rail review does involve something TfL related, otherwise why just 10 days
[Withdrawn] Local transport update: TfL funding
Current Transport for London funding deal extended until 28 May 2021.
Despite this massive discussion about ticket barriers and revenue, here in Finland, ticket barriers simply do not exist! On the VR (national rail operator) network, there are so many stations where you can walk off the pavement and be on a train in 10 seconds, barrier free! Even at the 19-platform Helsinki station, you can just walk/cycle through it to get from one side to another without paying anything. Having said that, the commuter trains in the capital region, which are DOO, do have occasional ticket inspectors join. But on the metro, inspections have fallen off a cliff, even before COVID. Add to this the increasingly "violent" and "drug-addicted" teenagers, and to British people, it muat be a wonder they get any revenue at all!
So do they just have more sensible people in Finland?
Gareth
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Increasingly "violent" and "drug-addicted" teenagers aside, yes.
Lots of European countries don't have barriers, but they are very hot about on board checks and don't mess about. Blokes with batons and massive dogs in Spain, undercover inspectors in Germany who will grab you off the train if you mess about. There's nothing like that in the UK, and on SE barely any staff every seen to check on board.
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