TFL Overground to take over Southeastern Metro?

[zwk500]

I think what he was saying was that the next week was in the wrong place and it sounds like TFL will be adding the Southeastern service to the Overground Network next week.

Obviously, that's not what you mean but I think that's what he was trying to say.

Yes, that's what I meant. Thank you for saying it in a gentler way than I otherwise might have!

@JamesU2002 it was not meant as a dig at all. Apologies if it came across as slapping you down.

 

[JamesU2002]

Yes, that's what I meant. Thank you for saying it in a gentler way than I otherwise might have!

@JamesU2002 it was not meant as a dig at all. Apologies if it came across as slapping you down.

No harm done sir , all friends here.

 

[londonteacher]

There is a local organisation in London SE9 (Brockley) that has apparently had a Heads Up about some transfer of some SouthEastern trains to Overground

https://twitter.com/SEninemag/status/1393508623402287104

Unable to verify this, but have been reminded that the TfL Covid grant runs out on 18th, so something has to be announced regarding TfL finances and services in next 3 days anyway

I wouldn't listen to that. It might happen but an amateur twitter page is not going to be the place it is announced. It will be announced in Parliament first most likely if at all.

 

[GatwickDepress]

…and even the quoted tweet refers to just local services. We’ve discussed this proposal quite a few times before, and people have often referred to taking over the whole TOC in their thread titles. Not sure if it’s just wishful thinking, misunderstanding, or exaggeration.

A Class 395 in London Overground livery would certainly be a sight to see!

 

[ScottGallagher]

From what I understand TFL are living week to week to avoid effective bankruptcy so where would they get the money and energy from?, this sounds more an aspiration like the Moorgate services than anything set in stone.

 

[paul1609]

Charing, Harrietsham, Martin Mill, Pluckley, Yalding, Battle, Frant, Chartham etc don't strike me as LO territory TBH.

Last Wednesday I went past Frant station car park on the way to the Spa Valley railway. Precovid the car park would have been full with cars spilling on to any spare road space outside, last Wednesday at 9.30 there were 4 cars in the 100 ish space car park. Financially atm southeasterns rural routes must be absolute basket cases.

 

[2192]

I can't see this Conservative Prime Minister wanting to give more power to the Labour London Leader by expanding the overground. Particularly as the likely extra trains in the GLC area would make it more difficult to expand the service for his supporters in Kent.

 

[yorksrob]

Last Wednesday I went past Frant station car park on the way to the Spa Valley railway. Precovid the car park would have been full with cars spilling on to any spare road space outside, last Wednesday at 9.30 there were 4 cars in the 100 ish space car park. Financially atm southeasterns rural routes must be absolute basket cases.

I went down there a couple of times last year, and the trains were pretty quiet - apart from one occasion on the route to London via Maidstone East.

 

[hkstudent]

The problem of course is what to do with Gravesend. Gravesend is a natural end point for services as they already run into and out of the bay. Anything beyond Dartford is pretty much firmly within Kent but Bluewater (Greenhithe) and Ebbsfleet will need serious consideration. There was an issue recently in Dartford because you get London Bus' and Kent busses all running but you cant use the train. Dartford Moved into the travelcard zone to match the local services. Dartford would be a logical cut off point but The link to Bluewater and Ebbsfleet cannot be ignored.

Same with Soaks. Orpington is the natual cut off point but many services start and terminate at Sevenoaks. They have wanted an extension of the boundary for years and tbh it would make sense to extend to Sevenoaks. The alternative is to cut off your nose to spite... Terminating Metro at Orpy and Dartford could mean a dramatic shift in services through kent.

When putting the "potential" Crossrail extension to Ebbsfleet in mind, it would be better to include Gravesend for LO service for better future service planning.
One of the Crossrail extension options was to increase the frequency of NR service between Abbey Wood and Northfleet / Ebbsfleet. If TfL has the control, that would be better sorted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2021 ==

I can't see this Conservative Prime Minister wanting to give more power to the Labour London Leader by expanding the overground. Particularly as the likely extra trains in the GLC area would make it more difficult to expand the service for his supporters in Kent.

Or turn away more Kentish voters just like those people in Watford?

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't see what benefits this will bring.
Line capacity is maxed out so no new services.
The 707s are coming over to increase capacity, and more stock was going to be ordered in the new franchise to replace the 465s

 

[CBlue]

Is there anything so bad about Southeastern's services that TfL operation would be hugely better?

Certainly the operations they took over from Greater Anglia haven't had much improvement beyond what GA would have needed to do anyway with stock replacement.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Hayes line would be messy to sort out.
LO would want to have a 4tph even service to Cannon Street, but then you'd need to move services from there to Charing cross to facilitate that.

 

[yorksrob]

The Hayes line would be messy to sort out.
LO would want to have a 4tph even service to Cannon Street, but then you'd need to move services from there to Charing cross to facilitate that.

I very much doubt that Hayes line passengers would want to lose their direct trains to the West End.

 

[ScotGG]

They've got confused and admitted as much later on.

They've seen The Times article about a new organisation awarding concessions and jumped to conclude TfL will takeover and include SE Metro in London Overground without any evidence.

Maybe it will happen, but the DfT are hardly going to provide funding to TfL to permit it, it would appear.

SE Metro does desperately need a fresh broom. SE seem far more interested in long distance and HS1. Inner services are unloved with scope to entice more passengers and alleviate road congestion. But that needs investment in all the Networkers via refurb or replacement, 376 refurbs, new sidings, station upgrades and crucially staffing as many unstaffed much of the day. Who pays?

30 odd 707s barely scratch the surface.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2021 ==

Reading through and a bit surprised so many weren't aware SE Metro to LO was pretty much a done deal until Grayling over.

Around 2016 Transport Sec Patrick McGloughlin did a PR event announcing it, Kent county council agreed to it, TFL of course got what they'd long sought and then Grayling arrived and scrapped it all on spurious grounds.

All the issues being discussed were on the way to resolution. TfL had a clear plan and Kent CC agreed to being on oversight board.

Since then though a huge amount has of course changed, and the original source is just speculation without any foundation right now.

 

[JamesU2002]

Was there ever detailed release from TFL or DFT outlining what a TFL Overground takeover of metro Southeastern would result in (from back in circa 2016 when it was almost a done deal)? New routes? Timetable improvements etc?

 

[swt_passenger]

Was there ever detailed release from TFL or DFT outlining what a TFL Overground takeover of metro Southeastern would result in? New routes? Timetable improvements etc?

Well I remember TfL proposed simplifying many routes, so that there’d be no choice of London terminal, and reducing many conflicts at Lewisham. So everyone objected to that as a matter of course. But I don’t believe increased weekday peak services are possible without massive infrastructure improvements.

But it’s often said that LO took all the low hanging fruit with the NLL and WLL anyway, and no other network has any headroom for massive improvents.

 

[Mikey C]

Unlike other lines which TfL have taken over, there isn't a clean split between the "London Metro" services and the rest of the Southeastern routes. Especially as they run into 3 termini, Charing X, Cannon Street and Victoria, plus Blackfriars on occasions.

 

[ScotGG]

Was there ever detailed release from TFL or DFT outlining what a TFL Overground takeover of metro Southeastern would result in (from back in circa 2016 when it was almost a done deal)? New routes? Timetable improvements etc?

It was a bit controversial as Tfl sought to simplify routes into London terminals. There were safeguards to ensure long distance would not be impacted which was what saw KCC agree.

I do vaguely recall a photoshoot with the then transport sec at a station somewhere announcing the plan in early 2016.

It was never really about improved frequencies but a "guiding mind" to give the Metro routes the kick up the backside they've long needed. The DfT could do it but never showed any interest. Southeastern are more concerned about long distance and HS1.

That kick up the backside was deep cleaning trains (the networkers are grotty) alongside staffing at stations as many in London are simply unstaffed much of the day and easy to avoid paying. Lots of local journeys occur with both stations open so a lot of revenue is going awol and stations are not exactly welcoming if, say a lone woman traveller in the off peak periods. Much anti social behaviour in places.

For example, TfL took over Abbey Wood, put in staff and counted passenger numbers skyrocketed. There were no more passengers - people now had to pay. It also feels much safer with visible staff presence.

Simple stuff really compared to infrastructure work that the DfT could sort but just never did for many, many years.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Unlike other lines which TfL have taken over, there isn't a clean split between the "London Metro" services and the rest of the Southeastern routes. Especially as they run into 3 termini, Charing X, Cannon Street and Victoria, plus Blackfriars on occasions.

SouthEastern used to advertise their non HS1 services as “Metro” (red) and “Mainline” (green), so it could be that LO would take the former

 

[Horizon22]

I very much doubt that Hayes line passengers would want to lose their direct trains to the West End.

They are more concerned about the loss of Cannon St services, should the Bakerloo line extension come to pass - although in reality thats more like 2040s at this rate and may be null and void if homeworking continues.

Realistically given the government is apparently making announcements about GB Railways or whatever it will be called tomorrow, it is likely what we are discussing here will be mentioned there as well

That kick up the backside was deep cleaning trains (the networkers are grotty) alongside staffing at stations as many in London are simply unstaffed much of the day and easy to avoid paying. Lots of local journeys occur with both stations open so a lot of revenue is going awol and stations are not exactly welcoming if, say a lone woman traveller in the off peak periods. Much anti social behaviour in places.

For example, TfL took over Abbey Wood, put in staff and counted passenger numbers skyrocketed. There were no more passengers - people now had to pay. It also feels much safer with visible staff presence.

Simple stuff really compared to infrastructure work that the DfT could sort but just never did for many, many years.

Southeastern could do that too, if they were suddenly given a chunk of money to rennovate a station (complete rebuild of a station building to tie in with Crossrail which had all the money at the time, new barriers and station information etc.) People always say that a service improves when LO takes over which I think is partly due to the "TfL effect" that makes it much people for your average passenger to understand with the branding / operation etc. but also partly that they've also been given a considerable amount of money compared to their predecssors for that line of route to transform the service / station. And yes, there is probably some element of the incumbent operator not being overly concerned but considering SE has been in the "last year of the franchise" for about 4 years now, I can hardly blame them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2021 ==

Unlike other lines which TfL have taken over, there isn't a clean split between the "London Metro" services and the rest of the Southeastern routes. Especially as they run into 3 termini, Charing X, Cannon Street and Victoria, plus Blackfriars on occasions.

True. And even under SE when the consultation first came up about "terminals rationalisation" in 2018(?) to save major conflicts at Lewisham and the New Cross area, the punters were absoutely up in arms about losing their direct connections to CHX or CST and the plan was quietly dropped. From an operational perspective, making CHX the "mainline station" and CST the "metro station" would make sense and people would need to change at London Bridge.

Greenwich commuters were originally a bit peeved losing their direct CHX services, but once London Bridge was rebuilt realised it actually wasn't that bad but its still quite a hard sell for the whole route.

 

[HSTEd]

You can probably cobble together a solution if you leverage crossrail, but it is not going to be cheap or quick.

Although I think it would still be better in the long run.

 

[ScotGG]

Southeastern could do that too, if they were suddenly given a chunk of money to rennovate a station (complete rebuild of a station building to tie in with Crossrail which had all the money at the time, new barriers and station information etc.) People always say that a service improves when LO takes over which I think is partly due to the "TfL effect" that makes it much people for your average passenger to understand with the branding / operation etc. but also partly that they've also been given a considerable amount of money compared to their predecssors for that line of route to transform the service / station. And yes, there is probably some element of the incumbent operator not being overly concerned but considering SE has been in the "last year of the franchise" for about 4 years now, I can hardly blame them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2021 ==

The operative word being could. It's not just the past 4 years. The DfT have shown little interest for 20 years in SE Metro, so the franchise hasn't. DfT could have insisted on much but simply havn't time and time again. SE are hardly going to as you state off their own back given the future of the franchise has been uncertain for so long, but then again there was little change from the 2006 franchise award in terms of staffing and making the network more appealing as the DfT didn't insist upon it and GoVia showed little interest. If the DfT or a new organisation takes over there's no certainty that will change. TfL aren't perfect but can grasp some basic stuff - though now are so financially hamstrung I can't see much happening.

TfL understood the basics of clean(er) stations, cleaner trains, staffing, legible signage and advertising = people more willing to travel for leisure alongside the commuter market. More important than ever now. TfL have in the past refurbed old trains like the 315s even if a short shelf life. The networkers and 376s see next to nothing for 20 years.

You don't often need a chunk of money for manning barriers which already exist. In terms of overall cost it's small fry, especially with the level of ticketless travel on SE metro. For those who use c2c, Thameslink and Lo/Tube I can't emphasise enough how devoid of staffing most SE Metro stations are in London away from terminals. Everyone knows unless going central you generally don't have to pay as no on board staff and none at most stations. These are also stations with millions of users per year (which are undercounted due to said open access). SE Metro has been in stagnation for 20 years.

For whatever reason the DfT havn't bothered to specify improvements on so many occasions. They could but havn't. GoVia also showed little initiative. That's why moving control to TfL pre-pandemic along a concession model was so strongly supported by all parties. Many understood frequency improvements were not possible as paths are full, but that still left a lot of other improvements possible to capture revenue and in addition create a system that can alleviate chronic traffic congestion in many areas of SE London.

 

[Mikey C]

Surely the improvements needed at Southeastern just required a new franchise, instead of the current state of purgatory.

After all I don't see the same clamour for TfL to take over the Southwestern "metro routes"

 

[Horizon22]

The operative word being could. It's not just the past 4 years. The DfT have shown little interest for 20 years in SE Metro, so the franchise hasn't. DfT could have insisted on much but simply havn't time and time again. SE are hardly going to as you state off their own back given the future of the franchise has been uncertain for so long, but then again there was little change from the 2006 franchise award in terms of staffing and making the network more appealing as the DfT didn't insist upon it and GoVia showed little interest. If the DfT or a new organisation takes over there's no certainty that will change. TfL aren't perfect but can grasp some basic stuff - though now are so financially hamstrung I can't see much happening.

TfL understood the basics of clean(er) stations, cleaner trains, staffing, legible signage and advertising = people more willing to travel for leisure alongside the commuter market. More important than ever now. TfL have in the past refurbed old trains like the 315s even if a short shelf life. The networkers and 376s see next to nothing for 20 years.

You don't often need a chunk of money for manning barriers which already exist. In terms of overall cost it's small fry, especially with the level of ticketless travel on SE metro. For those who use c2c, Thameslink and Lo/Tube I can't emphasise enough how devoid of staffing most SE Metro stations are in London away from terminals. Everyone knows unless going central you generally don't have to pay as no on board staff and none at most stations. These are also stations with millions of users per year (which are undercounted due to said open access). SE Metro has been in stagnation for 20 years.

For whatever reason the DfT havn't bothered to specify improvements on so many occasions. They could but havn't. GoVia also showed little initiative. That's why moving control to TfL pre-pandemic along a concession model was so strongly supported by all parties. Many understood frequency improvements were not possible as paths are full, but that still left a lot of other improvements possible to capture revenue and in addition create a system that can alleviate chronic traffic congestion in many areas of SE London.

It's true which is why LO in many ways is better because they seem to have more of a rolling funding model. SE does have some of the worst ticketless travel issues and that has been allowed to become endemic in the off-peak. Partly though culture and partly through the focus its given through funding. I would argue that without serious reconiditoning of some station buildings it's not going to be feasible to deliver all the changes like at Abbey Wood, but certainly some gatelines could be staffed better where they are already there.

As I said with the franchise model perhaps gone for good this might be a moot point - and SE's franchise stagnatuon - but revenue protection is certainly an area of improvement for whomever is in charge in the next few years

 

[Domh245]

I almost expect that we'll actually see trains operated by London & South Eastern Railway (ltd) but under a London Overground brand. With everything moving to concessions and under Government control, there's not going to be much benefit to moving operations from L&SER to ARL, at least in this case.

There would however (IMO) be benefit to a unified brand for trains running to (roughly) the Greater London boundaries, an "inner NSE" if you will. If SE metro does get orange-d, I'd expect SWR and southern metro services to follow suite.

 

[urpert]

I very much doubt that Hayes line passengers would want to lose their direct trains to the West End.

This Hayes line passenger strongly endorses this sentiment. Though I do remember a previous RUS(?) suggesting diverting the Charing X services to Victoria via Nunhead.

 

[zwk500]

This Hayes line passenger strongly endorses this sentiment. Though I do remember a previous RUS(?) suggesting diverting the Charing X services to Victoria via Nunhead.

Of course, if it went to the Bakerloo line the Hayes line would have quite a few more than 4tph direct to the West End.

 

[telstarbox]

Having the "edge" of LO at Dartford and Sevenoaks was apparently agreed with KCC, but did anyone consider the Sidcup line Sunday service which extends to Gravesend?

 

[bramling]

Last Wednesday I went past Frant station car park on the way to the Spa Valley railway. Precovid the car park would have been full with cars spilling on to any spare road space outside, last Wednesday at 9.30 there were 4 cars in the 100 ish space car park. Financially atm southeasterns rural routes must be absolute basket cases.

It's just the same on GN. My local station car park is normally bursting at the seams by the end of the morning peak, along with a considerable amount of parking on local roads. It's all remaining stubbornly absent.

 

[londonteacher]

LO could take it over tomorrow if they wanted to. It's not hard to add branding to a station. LO by Southeastern or something similar.

I hope that LO does take it over and through government funding all stations become barriered. There are too many people who are getting away with free journeys in SE London. When Abbey Wood changed to TFL Rail operated and barriers in use it pushed all the people who didn't pay to Belvedere or Plumstead with them walking the rest of the way. Barrier it all and catch them out!