TFL & "Managed Decline"

[Starmill]

If they didn’t care, they’d have been on the HEX and not on the Piccadilly line from Zone 1 in the first place

Lots of people getting off the train at Hatton Cross to catch a bus to their terminal sounds rather a likely consequence of significantly increasing the prices to and from Heathrow. Indeed this was given by TfL as a reason for the lowering of prices between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow, because it enabled a small reduction in the bus capacity called for.

 

[JonathanH]

Lots of people getting off the train at Hatton Cross to catch a bus to their terminal sounds rather a likely consequence of significantly increasing the prices to and from Heathrow. Indeed this was given by TfL as a reason for the lowering of prices between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow, because it enabled a small reduction in the bus capacity called for.

The buses from Hatton Cross to the Airport aren't free any more though and Hatton Cross is in Zone 6 so that is another £1.55 (presumably £1.65 in 2022) to add on to the existing cost.

I guess the ability to charge higher bus fares to Heathrow is (luckily) too complex to implement - ticket gates on the bus stops at Heathrow would be the obvious way to collect a higher charge - eg with something like an extra £3 collected from each person on top of the bus fare.

 

[Mojo]

If they didn’t care, they’d have been on the HEX and not on the Piccadilly line from Zone 1 in the first place

Depends where they're going. Terminal 123 to Hyde Park Corner and stations west of, you are quicker on the Piccadilly line.

 

[bramling]

Depends where they're going. Terminal 123 to Hyde Park Corner and stations west of, you are quicker on the Piccadilly line.

The Piccadilly Line to Heathrow has never been quiet. Whilst no doubt air travel will have increased over the years, the opening of Heathrow Express never seemed to have that much of a noticeable reduction in numbers using the Picc Line. I suppose Picc Line frequency has declined a little since the 1990s.

It’s certainly never been the case that the Picc Line to Heathrow has been empty (Covid aside!). In an ideal world there would be more of an effort to encourage people *away* from it, as it’s never been ideal to have trains leaving Heathrow with many seats taken, providing a poor experience for other non-Heathrow users. Especially as Northfields trains have become rarer over the years.

 

[ainsworth74]

The discussion about Travelcards can now be found in a dedicated thread here.

 

[mrredrunner100]

I believe station staff are getting new conditions of service which can require then to work anywhere on the system and not just in thier sector. So somebody living in Walthamstow could be told to go to open Amersham station at 5am for example and taxi fares are no longer paid. This would fit in well for management with not filling posts in terms of being able to remove remaining staff around to where they are deemed necessary.

That isn’t true whatsoever. There are no plans for the station staff framework to be changed again, and the staff taxi network isn’t being changed either.

That is NOT what I'm told by a member of station staff and RMT

Don't listen to what the RMT are saying. They often take things out of context and massively blow things out of proportion to get people on their side. If they actually communicated with their members and management then they might find themselves in a better position to negotiate.

Unfortunately they've lost all their credibility. Especially with the issues in head office.

This is true, what's not true is that it's all station staff. It's the SRT it applies to

 

[AlbertBeale]

This is true, what's not true is that it's all station staff. It's the SRT it applies to

What does SRT mean?

 

[mrredrunner100]

What does SRT mean?

Special Requirements Team - basically members of staff that cover segments of the network who help out with events/closures/extreme shortfalls in staff, sometimes at short notice. At the moment they operate in segments (north east, north west, south east etc).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Special Requirements Team - basically members of staff that cover segments of the network who help out with events/closures/extreme shortfalls in staff, sometimes at short notice. At the moment they operate in segments (north east, north west, south east etc).

Right - thanks - makes sense, if they're the staff who get shipped around from place to place anyway, and know that's part of their job description.

 

[mrredrunner100]

Right - thanks - makes sense, if they're the staff who get shipped around from place to place anyway, and know that's part of their job description.

Kind of, the difference is that at the moment, the SRT have areas they cover which would be a defined area. The changes would be getting rid of that system which as someone else has mentioned could put someone who lives in far east london, could now be working in amersham at 0500 and for obvious reasons, staff don't want that

 

[bramling]

Kind of, the difference is that at the moment, the SRT have areas they cover which would be a defined area. The changes would be getting rid of that system which as someone else has mentioned could put someone who lives in far east london, could now be working in amersham at 0500 and for obvious reasons, staff don't want that

I suspect the upshot of a lot of this is going to be that TfL are going to find themselves returning to the days when they had severe problems attracting and retaining staff of necessary calibre. I get the impression things are already swinging in that direction.

Thousands of applications does not always equal high-calibre appointments, and this is bound to be an increasing issue going forward.

Who on earth would want to work at TfL at the moment?

 

[Goldfish62]

I suspect the upshot of a lot of this is going to be that TfL are going to find themselves returning to the days when they had severe problems attracting and retaining staff of necessary calibre. I get the impression things are already swinging in that direction.

Thousands of applications does not always equal high-calibre appointments, and this is bound to be an increasing issue going forward.

Who on earth would want to work at TfL at the moment?

There's currently lots of good, experienced people leaving, either for better paid jobs elsewhere or retiring earlier than they'd previously planned.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Bailout extension to 4th February according to Evening Standard

TfL bailout to keep Tube lines and buses running extended to February

Sadiq Khan says he’s still having to consider major cuts to Tube and bus services

www.standard.co.uk

 

[bramling]

Bailout extension to 4th February according to Evening Standard

TfL bailout to keep Tube lines and buses running extended to February

Sadiq Khan says he’s still having to consider major cuts to Tube and bus services

www.standard.co.uk

One wonders if this is the first fall-out from North Shropshire. That said, TfL need something more long-term.

 

[Snow1964]

Bailout extension to 4th February according to Evening Standard

TfL bailout to keep Tube lines and buses running extended to February

Sadiq Khan says he’s still having to consider major cuts to Tube and bus services

www.standard.co.uk

Andy Byford (TfL commissioner) is quoted :

“There is no UK recovery from the pandemic without a London recovery and there is no London recovery without a properly funded transport network in the capital.
“It is therefore essential that discussions with Government continue so that we can agree the sustained long-term Government funding that is vital for the coming years if a period of ‘managed decline’ of London’s transport network is to be avoided.”

which is much straighter answer than Sadiq Khan ever gives where he is trying to highlight selected items to score political points.

Reading various finance news reports, it seems the Government asked for detailed proposals on raising at least £500m and ideally £1bn per year. But some of the proposals lacked details, and where there was a range eg X will raise £70-100m the minimums didn’t reach the £500m

Obviously have to be cautious as can’t verify this, but the Government (especially the Treasury) are always cautious so would expect the minimum to be met using most cautious numbers, and my take is the proposals just about got to enough, but there wasn’t enough over the minimum that the costing got been taken as definite.

Clearly to get the longer term funding, the revenue raise needs to be more, and sustainable. I suspect some were also too slow eg reported phasing out of 60+ cards over multiple years.

4th February is clearly 2 extra 4 week periods, extending bailout from end period 9 to end period 11 (TfL uses 13 periods of 4 weeks). So now everyone can resume negotiations in January after holiday period.

 

[Mojo]

Kind of, the difference is that at the moment, the SRT have areas they cover which would be a defined area. The changes would be getting rid of that system which as someone else has mentioned could put someone who lives in far east london, could now be working in amersham at 0500 and for obvious reasons, staff don't want that

That is quite misleading.

For context for others wondering - the SRT have three areas in which CSAs are allocated stations to work at; and in addition there is a "Central" zone in which anyone could be asked to work in. The proposal you are referring to is to add a number of event stations outside of central London to be added to the zone in which anyone could be asked to work in.

The SRT will still still work within zones so someone in the North East zone which covers Upminster would never be able to work at Amersham. Secondly, I'm struggling to think of a situation in where a CSA would be needed at Amersham station at 05.00 when they don't even have a rostered CSA on the early turn.

 

[ShadowKnight]

How many people with bags take the Piccadilly line to Heathrow?

I agree with the rest of your post that most people will pay the extra. My issue is that it undermines the Oyster messaging. Tapping in and out does not ensure the best fare for your journey. I would even argue that Contactless should be doing the splits for people in the back office anyway.



If this works as “Zone 1-Heathrow peak, anything else as current”, then the cheapest split will be Earl’s Court as that’s a boundary zone, and non-Z1 off peak TfL fares don’t increase beyond three covered zones.

(I actually like getting off at Hatton Cross because I enjoy the bus ride around the terminal area!).

A healthy amount of people do take their bags on the tube to Heathrow, particularly tourists and those who do not drive. It is not an uncommon sight of people with bags, I have certainly done it myself many times.

 

[Goldfish62]

How many people with bags take the Piccadilly line to Heathrow?

Are you serious? In normal times you can sometimes hardly move for all the cases stacked up in the train. Why would people travel to Heathrow and send their luggage separately?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you serious? In normal times you can sometimes hardly move for all the cases stacked up in the train. Why would people travel to Heathrow and send their luggage separately?

If anything it is more likely that people with large bags will use the Piccadilly Line (tourists), whereas business travellers (in so far as any exist at the moment) might pay extra for HEx or Crossrail and are more likely to have small bags for a short, hand luggage only trip.

Like with Gatwick Express, this demonstrates how a price differential induces undesirable behaviour, and as such how it'd make sense to equalise the non-season fare between Crossrail and LU in order to avoid that behaviour, even if HEx remains a premium option.

 

[Goldfish62]

If anything it is more likely that people with large bags will use the Piccadilly Line (tourists), whereas business travellers (in so far as any exist at the moment) might pay extra for HEx or Crossrail and are more likely to have small bags for a short, hand luggage only trip.

Like with Gatwick Express, this demonstrates how a price differential induces undesirable behaviour, and as such how it'd make sense to equalise the non-season fare between Crossrail and LU in order to avoid that behaviour, even if HEx remains a premium option.

Yes, it would make some sense. HEx, for as long as it actually still exists, will always have a premium fare.

 

[Cdd89]

Are you serious? In normal times you can sometimes hardly move for all the cases stacked up in the train.

A relatively small number of bags can feel like a large number because of how small the trains are. In practice it’s nothing like the number on the HEX and most on the Piccadilly line have one item of hand luggage per person.

 

[Goldfish62]

A relatively small number of bags can feel like a large number because of how small the trains are. In practice it’s nothing like the number on the HEX and most on the Piccadilly line have one item of hand luggage per person.

I have been travelling on the Piccadilly line off and on for the past 35 years and can assure you that serious amounts of luggage are carried on it at peak holiday times. That is why luggage racks were fitted to the prototype refurbished train, but this was considered to remove too much room for passengers when trains were on other parts of the line.

 

[Horizon22]

A relatively small number of bags can feel like a large number because of how small the trains are. In practice it’s nothing like the number on the HEX and most on the Piccadilly line have one item of hand luggage per person.

It's certainly the budget option but often people have luggage (and large suitcases at that) in front of their seat blocking the aisle on the Heathrow branch. It's much more noticable than if you're on an Uxbridge / Rayners Lane train.

As @Mojo mentioned, for some travellers it's also the most direct and easiest option.

 

[philthetube]

It does. Your journey is from central London to Heathrow, which is not the same thing as central London to Hatton Cross, a dance around the gateline and Hatton Cross to Heathrow.

Most people simply will not care. The number of people who use the Heathrow and Gatwick Expresses make that quite clear.

If the messaging is a problem, quietly drop it, or change it to "correct fare".

people travelling for holidays won't people working at Heathrow will.

There's currently lots of good, experienced people leaving, either for better paid jobs elsewhere or retiring earlier than they'd previously planned.

Guilty

13 out of approx. 80 drivers retired from Rickmansworth April 20 to April 21

 

[Bletchleyite]

people travelling for holidays won't people working at Heathrow will.

People working at Heathrow will either use season tickets or hit weekly/monthly caps. Those are not to change, just the single fares and daily caps. It's very specifically a "tourist tax".

There is barely an airport in the world that doesn't essentially have a "tourist tax" on its rail transport aimed towards tourists/business travellers/visitors.

 

[MikeWh]

People working at Heathrow will either use season tickets or hit weekly/monthly caps. Those are not to change, just the single fares and daily caps. It's very specifically a "tourist tax".

There is barely an airport in the world that doesn't essentially have a "tourist tax" on its rail transport aimed towards tourists/business travellers/visitors.

I think you'll find that the daily cap won't change either. The rationale being that people making a return journey are not to be penalised in the same way as people making a single journey.

 

[Wolfie]

Why not scrap the Hopper fare?

Bluntly why penalise London travellers to benefit out of towners who voted for the Government which is causing this? Never going to happen...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2022 ==

Indeed why not, but there is a general view that this would affect less well off people who use buses. The analogy is usually that you can travel long distances by underground changing lines as necessary but each bus trip had to be paid for separately. That isn't really a level playing field for bus and underground users.

The Hopper fare also allows cut backs in bus provision on corridors where there is more than one route.

Balanced and sensible.

 

[johncrossley]

Scrapping the Hopper fare would be silly as that is part of the cost saving strategy as it enables overlapping routes to be rationalised. TfL and its predecessors have wasted countless billions and created huge pollution by running so many similar routes for decades just so that more people have a direct bus. Many cities in the world have high public transport usage even though changing is the norm.

By all means increase the Hopper fare or better still create a fully integrated bus/tube fare.

 

[Goldfish62]

Balanced and sensible.

Scrapping the Hopper fare would be silly as that is part of the cost saving strategy as it enables overlapping routes to be rationalised. TfL and its predecessors have wasted countless billions and created huge pollution by running so many similar routes for decades just so that more people have a direct bus. Many cities in the world have high public transport usage even though changing is the norm.

By all means increase the Hopper fare or better still create a fully integrated bus/tube fare.

The Hopper fare was well overdue anyway. It's standard practice in cities overseas to be able to change between buses (and other modes) without penalty within a certain time eg, an hour.

 

[Roger1973]

The Hopper fare was well overdue anyway. It's standard practice in cities overseas to be able to change between buses (and other modes) without penalty within a certain time eg, an hour.

The London County Council Tramways (and successor LT Tram and Trolleybus division) did transfer tickets so that if there wasn't a direct route then you weren't financially penalised for this.

Broadly speaking, the bus operators (and successor LT central bus division) didn't do this.

It has (since the companies came together) been the case on the Underground that if your journey of X distance, or more recently in X zones, happens to involve a change of lines / trains then the cost is no more than a journey of similar length that happens to have direct trains.

Any transport network is never going to be able to make every door to door journey possible, and it's hard to argue that it should cost more just because your journey happens not to be by direct buses (although with paper tickets, there would have been issues with the risk of tickets being handed over from one person to another at the roadside if the first passenger didn't need to change - oyster or contactless card does away with this.)

Having said that, the Hopper fare is perhaps over-generous where multiple changes are involved - I was staying in SE London recently, needed to visit Lewisham for a couple of things and Catford for something else, and I managed to do the whole lot within one single fare (I must have got on the bus 'home' from Catford at about 59 minutes after starting.)