TFL & "Managed Decline"

[Acton1991]

Do these need to be agreed by central Government? I can’t see the Tory’s agreeing to the removal of Travelcards to their ‘safe seats’

 

[JonathanH]

Pulling out of the Travelcard Agreement would be a major piece of news. Outboundary Travelcards would all have to be withdrawn and everyone would need to switch to PAYG (or LU paper single rate).

It's similar to the boundary charge, but against public transport users rather than motorists. It's a way to charge people who aren't generally resident in London but who generally do benefit from TfL funding much more than currently.

The apparent outcome would effectively be that outboundary users of TfL would effectively "pay twice" for the part of their journey in London, that is they would have to buy a day return from the outboundary location to the London terminal and then directly pay TfL through PAYG for travel around Zone 1 (or wider as appropriate). I imagine that most outboundary travelcard use is in Zone 1 on TfL services so TfL would end up with a bigger share of the revenue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

Do these need to be agreed by central Government? I can’t see the Tory’s agreeing to the removal of Travelcards to their ‘safe seats’

It may not be like this in practice. Central Government wants extension of PAYG to a wider area in any case and it seems to be what their voters want (until they see the prices that will be charged). If PAYG is extended, there is no need for paper travelcards (although there are places you can buy a paper travelcard from which are definitely not going to have PAYG fares to London).

 

[Hadders]

Withdrawal of outboundary travelcards would be a very serious issue and would represent a massive increase in fares, particularly for leisure travel.

As for the general fares increase which months RPI figure is used? The RPI rate announced this morning is 7.1%

 

[JonathanH]

As for the general fares increase which months RPI figure is used? The RPI rate announced this morning is 7.1%

It should be July, which was 3.8%.

 

[Hadders]

It should be July, which was 3.8%.

That's at least something, although heaven knows what the fare increase might look like in 2023 given these sort of inflation figures.

 

[matt_world2004]

Which part?


Pulling out of the Travelcard Agreement would be a major piece of news. Outboundary Travelcards would all have to be withdrawn and everyone would need to switch to PAYG (or LU paper single rate).

It's similar to the boundary charge, but against public transport users rather than motorists. It's a way to charge people who aren't generally resident in London but who generally do benefit from TfL funding much more than currently.

Don't these services have the except national rail tickets when going on National Rail infrastructure

 

[Megafuss]

Why not scrap the Hopper fare?

 

[Starmill]

Don't these services have the except national rail tickets when going on National Rail infrastructure

Not really, no more than North Yorkshire Moors Railway services do.

It's currently governed by the Travelcard Agreement.

 

[JonathanH]

Why not scrap the Hopper fare?

Indeed why not, but there is a general view that this would affect less well off people who use buses. The analogy is usually that you can travel long distances by underground changing lines as necessary but each bus trip had to be paid for separately. That isn't really a level playing field for bus and underground users.

The Hopper fare also allows cut backs in bus provision on corridors where there is more than one route.

 

[MikeWh]

Does he mean increase the Oyster card fee to £7? Will it still be returned after a year?

 

[Cdd89]

The “Zone 1 to Heathrow” premium is either missing some important detail, or if not is going to create major anomalies in terms of fare splitting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The “Zone 1 to Heathrow” premium is either missing some important detail, or if not is going to create major anomalies in terms of fare splitting.

You can only split fares on Oyster and contactless if you break your journey. Those who are very price sensitive may do that. Most won't.

 

[Snow1964]

Withdrawal of outboundary travelcards would be a very serious issue and would represent a massive increase in fares, particularly for leisure travel.

As for the general fares increase which months RPI figure is used? The RPI rate announced this morning is 7.1%

But it’s July RPI +1%

So only really a 1% gain in net revenue, as costs would be increasing by approx RPI (costs are everything bought in and salaries etc)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2021 ==

The “Zone 1 to Heathrow” premium is either missing some important detail, or if not is going to create major anomalies in terms of fare splitting.

Sounds like removal of the off-peak fare cap, to/from stations in Heathrow area, on basis that Heathrow users don’t have a conventional peak hour, so they can be charged higher rate all day. Unclear if this will also apply to weekends.

 

[Acton1991]

Will this impact Crossrail fares to Heathrow too? They are already charged at a premium… so much so that for those of us in West London it can make more sense to get an Uber home from the airport vs TfL Rail (which is insane)

 

[Horizon22]

Will this impact Crossrail fares to Heathrow too? They are already charged at a premium… so much so that for those of us in West London it can make more sense to get an Uber home from the airport vs TfL Rail (which is insane)

I’d be surprised if you can find an Uber from Heathrow to Acton/Ealing for less than £6.30

 

[Acton1991]

I’d be surprised if you can find an Uber from Heathrow to Acton/Ealing for less than £6.30

Sorry I meant if travelling as a family.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry I meant if travelling as a family.

If travelling as a group of 4, a private hire "taxi" (of any flavour) will almost always be (often considerably) cheaper than, or at least no more expensive than, public transport, for pretty much any urban journey anywhere in the UK, other than longer London bus journeys due to the artificially low flat fare.

There is no real problem with this per-se, because a fully-occupied car is an efficient use of road space and once taxis are all electric will be no worse environmentally than the Tube or a bus. Along similar lines there's little point chasing after fully occupied family cars going on holiday, they are about the least worst form of car journey imaginable.

 

[Starmill]

There is no real problem with this per-se, because a fully-occupied car is an efficient use of road space and once taxis are all electric will be no worse environmentally than the Tube or a bus.

Doesn't seem to bother the continental cities who offer deep discounts for groups of 4 or more...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't seem to bother the continental cities who offer deep discounts for groups of 4 or more...

I'd not say I have a problem with transport operators doing that if they feel they want to because it suits them commercially to do so (e.g. I have no problem with the idea of GroupSave, Family Railcards etc). It's more that I don't have an issue with a taxi being cheaper for a particular journey per head if you fill it, because there is no particular reason to seek to discourage full cars (be they private or taxis), as they are an environmentally and road-space efficient means of transport.

 

[matt_world2004]

I’d be surprised if you can find an Uber from Heathrow to Acton/Ealing for less than £6.30

You can get a uber from Hayes to Heathrow for close to that price though

 

[Horizon22]

You can get a uber from Hayes to Heathrow for close to that price though

Yes it is odd that the fare remains so flat along the route. At that point I’d probably be getting a bus though.

 

[Starmill]

I'd not say I have a problem with transport operators doing that if they feel they want to because it suits them commercially to do so (e.g. I have no problem with the idea of GroupSave, Family Railcards etc). It's more that I don't have an issue with a taxi being cheaper for a particular journey per head if you fill it, because there is no particular reason to seek to discourage full cars (be they private or taxis), as they are an environmentally and road-space efficient means of transport.

As you well know, commercial approaches to local public transport in European cities are fairly rare. They're overwhelmingly publicly funded, and for good reasons.

To be honest the fact that we're even having this discussion shows just how far away we are from ever having transport systems that work well. Car zero should be the goal in urban areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you well know, commercial approaches to local public transport in European cities are fairly rare. They're overwhelmingly publicly funded, and for good reasons.

To be honest the fact that we're even having this discussion shows just how far away we are from ever having transport systems that work well. Car zero should be the goal in urban areas.

"Car zero" makes sense within Zone 1 and other city centres. The car is simply not going to go away elsewhere, and the taxi is an important part of being able to live without a private car if you so choose. If you did go "car zero" cars would be replaced by things which are no less of an issue, e.g. delivery vans.

 

[Cdd89]

You can only split fares on Oyster and contactless if you break your journey. Those who are very price sensitive may do that. Most won't.

If travelling to Heathrow (during normal service patterns), it’s likely the first Piccadilly line train won’t be going to your destination and you’d need to either wait or change anyway. In this case there’s no hardship to breaking.

Aside from which, split journey anomalies (apart from self-created ones like journeys that cross a peak boundary) would be a bad precedent within TfL’s own network. It’s bad enough they’re there on services to Gatwick!

 

[Starmill]

If travelling to Heathrow (during normal service patterns), it’s likely the first Piccadilly line train won’t be going to your destination and you’d need to either wait or change anyway. In this case there’s no hardship to breaking.

Having to leave a train at Hatton Cross is more likely to be frustrating however. Then again perhaps the plus is that if you do that, it's cheaper to get the bus for the last 10 minutes into the Airport!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If travelling to Heathrow (during normal service patterns), it’s likely the first Piccadilly line train won’t be going to your destination and you’d need to either wait or change anyway. In this case there’s no hardship to breaking.

Aside from which, split journey anomalies (apart from self-created ones like journeys that cross a peak boundary) would be a bad precedent within TfL’s own network. It’s bad enough they’re there on services to Gatwick!

There is hardship - schlepping your bags up to the gateline to go out and back in.

But that doesn't matter. Anyone who wants to can use that workaround, but most people will not. Thus an increase in income for TfL, and those who don't want to pay more having a workaround that suits them.

While this plan will abolish it, there are sneaky workarounds to pay less for TfL Rail now - a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard from Bletchley for both the outward and the return day is cheaper than other ticketing options. But I bet hardly anyone does that.

It doesn't matter if there are workarounds like this, because only a tiny number of people are going to use them. Just look at how many people pay extra for the Gatwick Express when you can pay less for an identical (and 1 minute quicker, if I recall) Southern service. And that doesn't even involve any faff at all!

 

[Cdd89]

There is hardship - schlepping your bags up to the gateline to go out and back in.

How many people with bags take the Piccadilly line to Heathrow?

I agree with the rest of your post that most people will pay the extra. My issue is that it undermines the Oyster messaging. Tapping in and out does not ensure the best fare for your journey. I would even argue that Contactless should be doing the splits for people in the back office anyway.

Having to leave a train at Hatton Cross is more likely to be frustrating however.

If this works as “Zone 1-Heathrow peak, anything else as current”, then the cheapest split will be Earl’s Court as that’s a boundary zone, and non-Z1 off peak TfL fares don’t increase beyond three covered zones.

(I actually like getting off at Hatton Cross because I enjoy the bus ride around the terminal area!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with the rest of your post that most people will pay the extra. My issue is that it undermines the Oyster messaging. Tapping in and out does not ensure the best fare for your journey.

It does. Your journey is from central London to Heathrow, which is not the same thing as central London to Hatton Cross, a dance around the gateline and Hatton Cross to Heathrow.

Most people simply will not care. The number of people who use the Heathrow and Gatwick Expresses make that quite clear.

If the messaging is a problem, quietly drop it, or change it to "correct fare".

 

[Cdd89]

Most people simply will not care. The number of people who use the Heathrow and Gatwick Expresses make that quite clear.

If they didn’t care, they’d have been on the HEX and not on the Piccadilly line from Zone 1 in the first place

 

[Starmill]

If this works as “Zone 1-Heathrow peak, anything else as current”, then the cheapest split will be Earl’s Court as that’s a boundary zone, and non-Z1 off peak TfL fares don’t increase beyond three covered zones.

It reads to me as if it means all fares to and from the Heathrow stations will be charged at the relevant 'peak' rate.