TfL Contactless Pilot

[Be3G]

TfL are looking for some willing volunteers to test contactless payments on track-based modes of transport. There's some info here if you're interested, although they don't give much away unless you're a successful applicant for the pilot.

Alas, I won't be able to take part as bus is the main mode of transport around here (not helped by the removal of the zone 2–6 cap, which I'm not sure I'll ever stop grumbling about…)

 

[Brucey]

I applied over the weekend. Very interested in being able to pay like this.

Only minor issue is that my cashback credit card isn't contactless, only the non-cashback one and my debit card

 

[RJ]

I got an email last week to confirm I've been selected to take part. I imagine it will be a convenient way to pay.

 

[andrewkeith5]

I have applied but given my relatively low Oyster usage don't rate my chances

I have 3 contactless cards (although the one that gives me cashback on TfL isnt, annoyingly!) and am a very heavy user of said feature wherever I can use it. Saves so much time and hassle!

 

[island]

I'm not eligible because of having an annual Travelcard. Mrs. island uses PAYG and is eligible, so she has applied.

 

[maniacmartin]

I've applied with the an Amex IIN. I wonder if this will work, given most places struggle to accept contactless Amex.

I'm also curious as to how daily caps will work when they are rolled out for this, as some card issuers still issue additional cardholders with a card with the same long number and expiry date as the primary accountholder. Will it be smart enough to notice (2 seperate EMV chips after all) or will 2 people inadvertently be able to share a cap?

 

[maniacmartin]

Just received this email:

Dear Martin,

Thank you for offering to take part in our contactless payment pilot, which will be starting in early 2014.

The selection process for the pilot has been slightly delayed by some urgent, unexpected work we have had to complete for the upcoming fares and ticketing changes.

I will write to you again in January to let you know if you have been selected.

Thank you again for volunteering to join the contactless payment pilot.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Just received this email:

Me too.... can't think what the sudden workload would be unless the whole team is now consumed with entering the new NR fares into the Oyster database!? :-?

 

[MikeWh]

Me too.... can't think what the sudden workload would be unless the whole team is now consumed with entering the new NR fares into the Oyster database!? :-?

Me too!

You might not be that far wrong about the database. There might also be other changes if the mayor has to reduce travelcards and fund it by raising previously held TfL fares.

 

[DavyCrocket]

I've just received an email asking me to go and swap my current card for a contact less one! I wonder (and hope) if it'll let me use all prepay routes too

 

[andrewkeith5]

I've just received an email asking me to go and swap my current card for a contact less one! I wonder (and hope) if it'll let me use all prepay routes too

Out of interest, an email from who? In my experience banks don't tend to ask you to swap, they just send you a new card... TfL cannot issue contactless credit/debit cards?

 

[bicbasher]

My mother changed her bank account to a basic current account with Barclays last week. While they're quite good with contactless with standard current accounts, she was only offered a standard chip and pin Visa Debit card.

So once again, those who don't wish or can't have credit/overdrafts won't be able to use this option.

 

[transmanche]

So once again, those who don't wish or can't have credit/overdrafts won't be able to use this option.

Being that this is an additional payment option, people in that positions are not losing out.

 

[Deerfold]

Being that this is an additional payment option, people in that positions are not losing out.

It was added as an additional method, but now they're looking at withdrawing cash payments on buses with the availability of contactless cards being an argument for why cash isn't needed.

 

[transmanche]

It was added as an additional method, but now they're looking at withdrawing cash payments on buses with the availability of contactless cards being an argument for why cash isn't needed.

Well this thread is about the contactless payment card trial on the tube.

But anyway, even regarding the proposed withdrawal of cash payment on the buses; the wide availability of contactless payment cards is in addition to the option of using Oyster PAYG - which, of course, is still available.

 

[Deerfold]

Well this thread is about the contactless payment card trial on the tube.

But anyway, even regarding the proposed withdrawal of cash payment on the buses; the wide availability of contactless payment cards is in addition to the option of using Oyster PAYG - which, of course, is still available.

I realise this contactless trial includes tube, DLR, LO, some NR and bus travel - I'm taking part in it.

However I don't see it's irrelevant as this trial is a step towards contactless payment becoming a regular rather than an "emergency" payment type - and people will be encouraged to pay on buses with this method.

On buses contactless cards are effectively the final argument to why cashless buses aren't disadvantaging anyone - so long as they can get one and they'll work.

 

[transmanche]

On buses contactless cards are effectively the final argument to why cashless buses aren't disadvantaging anyone - so long as they can get one and they'll work.

But the primary method of payment on buses is and will remain the Oyster card. The contactless card is just en extra 'nice to have', especially for those occasional travellers who don't have Oyster cards.

 

[Deerfold]

But the primary method of payment on buses is and will remain the Oyster card. The contactless card is just en extra 'nice to have', especially for those occasional travellers who don't have Oyster cards.

But its existence is being used as one of the arguments for withdrawing cash fares so in effect it it likely to be replacing cash payments.

To use a rail analogy, a few years ago the Calder Valley line stations at Mytholdmroyd and Sowerby Bridge had an additional service per hour put on going to Leeds via Dewsbury.

Shortly afterwards one of the existing services via Bradford was withdrawn (actually it became fast and no longer stopped there).

Most passengers at these stations would however say that the Dewsbury service replaced one of their Bradford services each hour as that was the final effect on them.

 

[transmanche]

But its existence is being used as one of the arguments for withdrawing cash fares so in effect it it likely to be replacing cash payments.

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Contactless card payments allow those who don't have an Oyster card to make payments instead of using cash. Being that cash payment on buses is so low (approx 1% of journeys) and that many/most people will already have a contactless payment card; the number of people who have neither will be tiny. As I said, the primary method of payment on buses is and will remain the Oyster card - an option that's available to everyone, regardless of what payment card they may or may not have.

 

[Deerfold]

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Contactless card payments allow those who don't have an Oyster card to make payments instead of using cash. Being that cash payment on buses is so low (approx 1% of journeys) and that many/most people will already have a contactless payment card; the number of people who have neither will be tiny. As I said, the primary method of payment on buses is and will remain the Oyster card - an option that's available to everyone, regardless of what payment card they may or may not have.

And you seem to be missing my point that *in an emergency* more people have access to money than have contactless cards, however small the number without access to contactless cards is. I'm not against the introduction of contactless cards, just wary of what may come next.

It's not unlikely after this trial, with the introduction of capping that a lot of PAYG users may well transfer from Oyster to Contactless - there's no need to top up. I'm not expecting Oyster to disappear but the percentage of payments via Oyster may well tumble.

 

[transmanche]

And you seem to be missing my point that *in an emergency* more people have access to money than have contactless cards, however small the number without access to contactless cards is. I'm not against the introduction of contactless cards, just wary of what may come next.

Not missing it at all, but it's not the be all and end all. But none of this has anything to do with this thread...

So back to the point that bicbasher made:

So once again, those who don't wish or can't have credit/overdrafts won't be able to use this option.

Contactless payment cards will be an additional method of payment on TfL rail services and those who do not have one will still have the option of using an Oyster card, so they are at no disadvantage compared to the status quo.

 

[bicbasher]

So back to the point that bicbasher made:

Contactless payment cards will be an additional method of payment on TfL rail services and those who do not have one will still have the option of using an Oyster card, so they are at no disadvantage compared to the status quo.

For now.

My point is for contactless to become the de-facto payment method will require the banks and credit unions to offer Contactless as standard for all current accounts, which isn't the case.

Obviously for this trial on the tube, it's not an issue as you mentioned above.

 

[Deerfold]

Not missing it at all, but it's not the be all and end all. But none of this has anything to do with this thread...

If you're the one trying to catch a bus with only cash it might be...

And as I've said, I think it's relevant as this trial is the next step in changing contactless payments from an occasional method of payment to a regular one - and then an argument for removing cash. If you want a new thread for next steps after the trial then these arguments belong there but otherwise I see it as very relevant.

This trial will introduce capping. The only reason for the trial not to include buses is because they already take contactless cards so cannot easily be incorporated into a trial.

 

[transmanche]

My point is for contactless to become the de-facto payment method will require the banks and credit unions to offer Contactless as standard for all current accounts, which isn't the case.

Are you referring to transport or generally? For transport, I don't see it ever becoming the de facto payment method. There will always be a need for an Oyster or ITSO style card.

For general payments, I don't see contactless becoming the de facto payment method in the short or medium term - certainly not until all transactions are processed online (which I assume is why basic bank accounts do not have contactless cards available).

And for those without contactless cards, in the medium term I would expect NFC-enabled mobile phones to 'take up the slack'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And as I've said, I think it's relevant as this trial is the next step in changing contactless payments from an occasional method of payment to a regular one - and then an argument for removing cash.

You're making a big assumption that cash will be removed as a payment method for TfL rail services in the medium term.

 

[Deerfold]

You're making a big assumption that cash will be removed as a payment method for TfL rail services in the medium term.

To clarify, I was not meaning cash being removed for rail services in the near future.

 

[Clip]

My mother changed her bank account to a basic current account with Barclays last week. While they're quite good with contactless with standard current accounts, she was only offered a standard chip and pin Visa Debit card.

So once again, those who don't wish or can't have credit/overdrafts won't be able to use this option.

It may sound a bit of hassle for her and she may not want to change banks but Metro Bank will give her a contactless card on their basic account.

Also, with regards to the pointless to-ing and fro-ing above - its the bank itself that has decided to not issue contactless on their basic account. Cant fault TFL for that. Young people who also have a basic bank account should also be allowed to use these types of cards. It all lies at the feet of the card issuing bank, not TfL.

 

[Electrostar]

Last year London Reconnections looked at TfL's reasons for wanting to cashless and how it could benefit from placing payments in the hands of the banking systems not its own Oyster systems.

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/ending-cash-fares-buses-daniels-dream-electric-beeps/

 

[island]

The thing about basic accounts is that they don't allow you to go overdrawn, but a contactless payment is not checked online and therefore could cause you to go overdrawn. Same reason as why the card won't work in an offline environment such as Avantix Mobile.

 

[34D]

The thing about basic accounts is that they don't allow you to go overdrawn, but a contactless payment is not checked online and therefore could cause you to go overdrawn. Same reason as why the card won't work in an offline environment such as Avantix Mobile.

Quite.

Has anyone seen any Consultation Feedback/Outcomes from November's TfL consultation?

 

[Be3G]

Nope, and interestingly, when I tried to find it a few days ago it seemed to have been deleted/hidden from TfL's consultations hub. (Normally closed consultations remain viewable.)

I seem to recall the idea was originally that cash fares would be abolished in 2014 – maybe that didn't mean necessarily at the start of the year, but if it did, it obviously hasn't happened.