• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TfGM Bus franchising

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
johncrossley said:
See London in the 90s for evidence. As I mentioned earlier, London ran at break even, yet GMPTE had to pay for tendered services, whilst First, Stagecoach et al were using profits made in Manchester buying up companies in other parts of the country and the world.
Click to expand...
Whilst they are obviously the evil bus owners that are exploiting everybody First didn't even exist until half way through the 1990s and didn't buy into Manchester until even later. Stagecoach also didn't make it's big purchase until 1996 so I dont know how many companies they could have bought off of what they made, especially as both the GM companies needed large investments in vehicles at the time.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

R

Rod Harrison

Member
Joined
15 Oct 2017
Messages
121
carlberry said:
Whilst they are obviously the evil bus owners that are exploiting everybody First didn't even exist until half way through the 1990s and didn't buy into Manchester until even later. Stagecoach also didn't make it's big purchase until 1996 so I dont know how many companies they could have bought off of what they made, especially as both the GM companies needed large investments in vehicles at the time.
Click to expand...
Stagecoach have made huge investments in the fleet and also the new garages at Ashton and Wythenshawe and the fleet has improved immeasurably since they took over GM South. I think some people live in cloud cuckoo land as business can grow, invest and increase wages unless they make a profit. Also, pension funds and Life Insurance companies are the biggest investors in PLCs. It is essential that funds are provided one way or another to finance quality services. There are of course some restrictions which 5The franchising model
 
D

David Verity

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2014
Messages
126
Location
Holmfirth West Yorkshire
Yesterday's news:

www.bbc.co.uk

Bus operators sought for Greater Manchester franchise network

Greater Manchester's buses will be run in a London-style system, as part of the Bee Network.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Bus operators sought for Greater Manchester franchise network

Greater Manchester has taken the next step towards taking buses back under public control by seeking operators to run services in Bolton and Wigan.

The region's buses will be run in a London-style system where operators bid to run services on a franchise basis.

It is a key part of the Bee Network, which will connect buses, trams and bikes, scheduled to be running by 2024.

Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham said the bus shake-up would be "game changing".

He said: "That is why I am so keen to get the next stage of this procurement process under way and why I have asked TfGM (Transport for Greater Manchester) to work with the government to explore options to accelerate the delivery of franchising across the city region to 2024."

'Accessible and affordable'
Mr Burnham said the people of Greater Manchester "deserve better bus services" and he was looking forward to "hearing from partners in the bus industry who share our vision of delivering the joined-up transport network we need."

The Bee Network aims to deliver seamless end-to-end journeys, connecting buses, trams and hire bikes in order to make public transport more accessible and affordable, the Local Democracy Reporting Service said.

The first of three phases of the Bee Network begins in summer 2023 in Bolton and Wigan.

A single ticket will cover all modes of transport and there will be a "one-stop shop"' for travel information.

Mr Burnham said passenger benefits from taking buses back under public control were "substantial".

Once franchising is in place TfGM and the Greater Manchester Combined Authority will be responsible for the design of the bus network and will specify the frequency of bus services.
Click to expand...

Bit light on details
 
Last edited by a moderator:
daodao

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
3,601
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Goldfish62 said:
Wigan/Bolton is the first area to go out to tender.
Click to expand...
It will be interesting to see which companies decide to submit a tender. The TfGM franchising proposals are not in the interest of the major bus groups, and they could scupper the scheme if they gang together and agree that no one will submit a bid.
 
G

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
13,157
daodao said:
It will be interesting to see which companies decide to submit a tender. The TfGM franchising proposals are not in the interest of the major bus groups, and they could scupper the scheme if they gang together and agree that no one will submit a bid.
Click to expand...
Dream on.
 
C

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
daodao said:
It will be interesting to see which companies decide to submit a tender. The TfGM franchising proposals are not in the interest of the major bus groups, and they could scupper the scheme if they gang together and agree that no one will submit a bid.
Click to expand...
What is against their interests? It's a guaranteed income, they don't have to try to attract customers and somebody else gets the blame when services get cut because there's no money for them. They're all quite happy in London (as long as they don't have to buy borisbuses).
 
R

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
5,455
daodao said:
It will be interesting to see which companies decide to submit a tender. The TfGM franchising proposals are not in the interest of the major bus groups, and they could scupper the scheme if they gang together and agree that no one will submit a bid.
Click to expand...
The franchising proposals as a concept might not be in the interest of the major bus groups, but once franchising is a fact it would not be in their interests not to bid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

TheGrandWazoo said:
Ganging together is illegal.
Click to expand...
Quite. None of the major bus companies bidding would be pretty damning circumstantial evidence too! Too much risk of a situation like the recent Stagecoach debacle with rail franchises.....
 
S

SouthEastBuses

On Moderation
Joined
15 Nov 2019
Messages
1,800
Location
uk
So, to be clear, does the Tfgm bus franchising mean that Manchester will become exactly like London in terms of how buses are run etc.? (unified livery, integrated ticketing, etc.)
 
GusB

GusB

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
8,124
Location
Elginshire
Xenophon PCDGS said:
We are now past the half-way mark in January 2022. When were the papers relating to the judicial review applications from both Rotala and from Stagecoach Manchester placed with the judge who was to decide upon the matter.
Click to expand...
When there is news on that front, I'm fairly sure that it will cause a flurry of activity here.
 
G

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
13,157
Xenophon PCDGS said:
We are now past the half-way mark in January 2022. When were the papers relating to the judicial review applications from both Rotala and from Stagecoach Manchester placed with the judge who was to decide upon the matter.
Click to expand...
The outcome was expected many months ago. And that decision was just whether the case could go forward to be considered under a judicial review.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

SouthEastBuses said:
So, to be clear, does the Tfgm bus franchising mean that Manchester will become exactly like London in terms of how buses are run etc.? (unified livery, integrated ticketing, etc.)
Click to expand...
In that it's a regulated network with operators running routes under gross cost contracts to the transport authority with the authority planning the network, including full fares integration, yes. There are fundamental differences in implementation, though, particularly area contracts instead of route contracts and depot ownership.
 
Last edited:
J

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
4,402
Location
London
TheGrandWazoo

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
22,909
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Not a surprise - as I've said before, I've always thought it would go through. Notwithstanding that the rather seductive arguments for franchising never seem to tackle the main issues behind continued car usage. More provided in the MEN

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c.../bus-reform-greater-manchester-legal-23336166

Judge rules in favour of Andy Burnham's major bus reform in historic moment for Greater Manchester's passengers
"In my judgement the mayor's decision and the process by which the Greater Manchester Combined Authority came to recommend the scheme was lawful"

A Judge has ruled in favour of Andy Burnham's bid for major bus reform - marking a historic moment for public transport in Greater Manchester.

It follows a judicial review brought by bus firms Stagecoach and Rotala, who claimed plans to move to a franchising system, where operators had to bid to run services under public control, were 'irrational' and 'unlawful'.

Their arguments against the proposal included the changes wrought by Covid on the public transport network.

However, sitting on Wednesday at the Royal Courts of Justice, Mr Justice Julian Knowles ruled against the operators, adding: "Whilst I granted the plaintiffs permission to bring the review I dismiss the claims. In my judgement the mayor's decision and the process by which the Greater Manchester Combined Authority came to recommend the scheme was lawful."

Mr Justice Knowles said his judgement runs to a hundred pages and more than 300 paragraphs. The hearing was ongoing this afternoon, and includes discussions around the appeals process.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
B

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,185
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
TheGrandWazoo said:
Not a surprise - as I've said before, I've always thought it would go through. Notwithstanding that the rather seductive arguments for franchising never seem to tackle the main issues behind continued car usage. More provided in the MEN

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c.../bus-reform-greater-manchester-legal-23336166
Click to expand...

Either way it's to me positive that it'll go ahead as a non-London trial with less favourable funding than London.

If it works, great, it should happen in every UK urban area.

If it's a disaster, flog it back off, I'll eat my hat and it need never be spoken of again.

Given that, among Western countries, the UK is the only one to have deregulated, commercial urban transport (crikey, even the supercapitalist US doesn't), I suspect it will be a success.
 
TheGrandWazoo

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
22,909
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Bletchleyite said:
Either way it's to me positive that it'll go ahead as a non-London trial with less favourable funding than London.

If it works, great, it should happen in every UK urban area.

If it's a disaster, flog it back off, I'll eat my hat and it need never be spoken of again.

Given that, among Western countries, the UK is the only one to have deregulated, commercial urban transport (crikey, even the supercapitalist US doesn't), I suspect it will be a success.
Click to expand...
But it won't be a "disaster" - remember, that a lot of the justification of it has been pointing at the decline in bus ridership without ever acknowledging the impact of the expanded Metrolink services. Remember that the government will be trumpeting Brexit as a success!

And yes, the US doesn't have commercial urban transport... Not an exemplar by any stretch! If you want it to be like Germany or Netherlands, then you have to spend the money. Simple as that.
 
M

Megafuss

Member
Joined
5 May 2018
Messages
887
Location
Spalding
johncrossley said:
Maybe they will get their contractors to do scheduling. As I understand it, that's what happens in London.
Click to expand...
Before going in to a tender process I'd want to know if I am getting a good price for what is being offered. If i don't know what to expect then I could/deserve to get fleeced.....
 
Deerfold

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
13,694
Location
Yorkshire
Megafuss said:
Before going in to a tender process I'd want to know if I am getting a good price for what is being offered. If i don't know what to expect then I could/deserve to get fleeced.....
Click to expand...
How does that follow on? With several companies in competition, they're unlikely to try and fool GMPTE about scheduling (and current schedules for routes are available).
 
B

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,185
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Megafuss said:
Before going in to a tender process I'd want to know if I am getting a good price for what is being offered. If i don't know what to expect then I could/deserve to get fleeced.....
Click to expand...

On the assumption that like London they aren't likely to coordinate timetables on high frequency urban routes (as it isn't really necessary), then the tender will just be for "6 buses per hour" say, and the operator will timetable and diagram it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top