TfGM Bus franchising

[Goldfish62]

Things certainly changed as both Rotala and Go Ahead were under the impression that there would be packages (as opposed to single routes perhaps) but not the wholesale removal of business. Otherwise GA wouldn't have paid £11m for a loss making operation.

Well, they certainly had a different impression from Stagecoach, who understood right from the start that it could result in exactly that. GoAhead are not completely against franchising, unsurprisingly, and I suspect they will be keenly bidding for everything they can to expand their business from what it is now. On the face of it buying just one loss-making depot with notoriously difficult industrial relations and remote from others of their operations would appear not to be an obvious purchase, unless you think of it as a springboard for much bigger things.

 

[johncrossley]

Is that what TfGM are planning? I hope so.

'Tap and cap' is a brand used by First for contactless payment without paying the driver, but I think they only operate in flat fare areas so there is no touch out.

TfGM appear to want a flat fare system so they won't have touch out.

 

[Goldfish62]

And, of course, the enforced de-camps as vehicles are removed from the service pattern. Last time it happened to me, it was in the (dark) heart of Deptford on the 188

The enforced chucking off in the middle of nowhere, or even worse, Deptford, with no other buses to transfer to really is the most unacceptable aspect of TfL operations. It was never intended like that of course and it's something that TfL is quite powerless to stop unless they audit every single curtailment on a daily basis, which is out of the question. When I was a controller back in Neolithic times it was a heinous crime to curtail a bus once it had started its trip without another bus in the vicinity to transfer passengers to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The enforced chucking off in the middle of nowhere, or even worse, Deptford, with no other buses to transfer to really is the most unacceptable aspect of TfL operations. It was never intended like that of course and it's something that TfL is quite powerless to stop unless they audit every single curtailment on a daily basis, which is out of the question. When I was a controller back in Neolithic times it was a heinous crime to curtail a bus once it had started its trip without another bus in the vicinity to transfer passengers to.

Like many "big data" things this is a good thing for an IT system to explore. Each curtailment and the reason would after all be logged.

 

[Goldfish62]

Like many "big data" things this is a good thing for an IT system to explore. Each curtailment and the reason would after all be logged.

All curtailments are logged electronically by iBus and reported to TfL after being manually coded with reasons. The only ways you're going to be able to detect such actions are to go through the electronic log of control centre to bus communications to see whether a curtailment instruction had been given after the bus departed on its trip or to look at the driver's log card to see the destination has been changed by the driver. You would need to work out whether there was another bus in the vicinity to transfer passengers to. TfL's audit team do do lost mileage audits, but you can probably appreciate the small sample sizes that are taken considering the huge volume of the network.

It's one of those things where the absolute focus on incentivised EWT (excess waiting time) has undoubtedly improved service reliability overall, but with the unfortunate unintended consequence of sometimes being chucked of the bus mid route. Having said that it's been a long time since it happened to me. Any curtailments I've experienced in the recent past have been where the bus had already received the instruction to curtail before the start of its trip and was already showing the appropriate destination.

 

[317 forever]

Well, they certainly had a different impression from Stagecoach, who understood right from the start that it could result in exactly that. GoAhead are not completely against franchising, unsurprisingly, and I suspect they will be keenly bidding for everything they can to expand their business from what it is now. On the face of it buying just one loss-making depot with notoriously difficult industrial relations and remote from others of their operations would appear not to be an obvious purchase, unless you think of it as a springboard for much bigger things.

And the fact that they have called the operation Go North West, not even just Go Manchester, suggests they wanted this to be the start of a larger presence in the area.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And the fact that they have called the operation Go North West, not even just Go Manchester, suggests they wanted this to be the start of a larger presence in the area.

Given that they have Go North East, Go South Coast and Go East, GNW is a logical extension. Just because they have one depot in Manchester, don’t forget about their operations cover Salford and Bury

 

[Goldfish62]

And the fact that they have called the operation Go North West, not even just Go Manchester, suggests they wanted this to be the start of a larger presence in the area.

Yes, absolutely. They're used to the contracting / franchising model in London, Dublin and Singapore, plus on the railways here and abroad and obviously see great potential in Greater Manchester.

 

[GusB]

Several posts have been removed because they were completely off-topic and had nothing to do with Bus Franchising.

If there is a post or part of a post to which you wish to reply and it doesn't entirely fall in line with the thread topic, do not simply reply anyway; either Quote the post (or part thereof) and reply in an existing thread* (if there is one) or start a new thread.

Please do use the report function if you see any thread drift - the earlier we catch it, the easier it is for us to deal with.

Thank you

*EDIT*

The off-topic posts are now here:

Dual Door Buses

Hi there, just want to share a few thoughts/ramblings on buses that have doors both by the driver and in the middle; sometimes even with yet another door at the back, or, indeed, several on articulated buses. As a young kid, I wasn't even aware that dual door buses were a thing. All the buses...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Deerfold]

The TfL mode of operation involves keeping buses at even intervals apart, rather than sticking to a fixed timetable. Sometimes there is a recorded announcement saying that the bus will wait to regulate the service.

You'd need the law changing to fix that in Franchised areas (I'm not sure if the current proposedfranchising system will already do that). Outside of London if the Traffic Commissioners examine a route, they compare it against the registered timetable.
For frequent routes London buses pay operators by mileage run, with bonuses or penalties for reliability, measured by average time between buses, with penalties for any long gaps (twice the timetabled gap).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

And, of course, the enforced de-camps as vehicles are removed from the service pattern. Last time it happened to me, it was in the (dark) heart of Deptford on the 188

That's only supposed to happen if there is another bus following - the driver is supposed to supervise the 2nd bus taking on their passengers. I know this doesn't always happen, but it should, so I'd recommend complaining when it doesn't.

The idea is that when 2 buses are travelling at the same time, 1 can be turned to fill a gap in the other direction (or held to fill one in the same direction or if the driver is out of hours, just return to depot) with only minor disruption to passengers.

 

[markymark2000]

You'd need the law changing to fix that in Franchised areas (I'm not sure if the current proposedfranchising system will already do that). Outside of London if the Traffic Commissioners examine a route, they compare it against the registered timetable.
For frequent routes London buses pay operators by mileage run, with bonuses or penalties for reliability, measured by average time between buses, with penalties for any long gaps (twice the timetabled gap).

You can have services which aren't on a timetable but they have to be at least every 10 minutes. At this point, timetables can state 'and then at frequent intervals' and then as long as there is a bus every 10 minutes, the traffic commissioner is satisfied. It could be every 5 minutes but with a missing trip, that's fine. It must be registered though as a frequent service.

 

[Deerfold]

You can have services which aren't on a timetable but they have to be at least every 10 minutes. At this point, timetables can state 'and then at frequent intervals' and then as long as there is a bus every 10 minutes, the traffic commissioner is satisfied. It could be every 5 minutes but with a missing trip, that's fine. It must be registered though as a frequent service.

Where sufficiently frequent, yes. So this is fine for a couple of the routes along Oxford Road, but not the lower frequency ones,

 

[PeterC]

Why would you want an outright ban on operator-specific ticketing? For passengers who would only want to use the services of one operator, why should they pay potentially more for services they wouldn't generally wish to use?

Trouble is that passengers just want to catch "the bus". They don't care what colour it is painted, if it will take th home the expect to use the return half of the ticket.

 

[RT4038]

Trouble is that passengers just want to catch "the bus". They don't care what colour it is painted, if it will take th home the expect to use the return half of the ticket.

With the 'Tap-on, tap-off' capped multi-operator ticketing proposed in many Bus Service Improvement Plans/Enhanced partnerships, the concept of return tickets is likely to fade away.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Trouble is that passengers just want to catch "the bus". They don't care what colour it is painted, if it will take th home the expect to use the return half of the ticket.

Always fascinates me. No one expects to use their Tesco Clubcard vouchers in Sainsbury’s, their BA return ticket on Virgin, or even (though more arguable) their LNWR advance ticket on Avanti. So why do people think of buses differently? Or do they?

 

[Djgr]

Always fascinates me. No one expects to use their Tesco Clubcard vouchers in Sainsbury’s, their BA return ticket on Virgin, or even (though more arguable) their LNWR advance ticket on Avanti. So why do people think of buses differently? Or do they?

Whether they do or not-allowing people to catch any bus improves the perception and reality of public transport provision. This is likely to transfer people out of their cars which is good for the environment and pretty much essential for reasons of our sustainability crisis.

 

[edwin_m]

Always fascinates me. No one expects to use their Tesco Clubcard vouchers in Sainsbury’s, their BA return ticket on Virgin, or even (though more arguable) their LNWR advance ticket on Avanti. So why do people think of buses differently? Or do they?

If you buy a sandwich in Tesco and another of the same price in Sainsburys, you pay the same as if you bought both at the same place. You can have loyalty cards for both shops so you don't really lose out there either, other than that it takes longer for either to realise any benefit.

People will probably plan their long-distance journeys longer in advance, and will probably book a seat on a specific flight or train, so will select the operator that is most suitable for them and stick to it (or in the case of rail pay a lot more for a walk-on). With a lot of bus routes it's a bit random which bus will come next, and what might be high-frequency routes during the day probably aren't if you return home in the evening, so you might need to wait a long time for your chosen operator or pay more to use a different one.

Basically local public transport is a bit different from most other things, and a monopoly will often actually be good for the customer.

 

[johncrossley]

Always fascinates me. No one expects to use their Tesco Clubcard vouchers in Sainsbury’s, their BA return ticket on Virgin, or even (though more arguable) their LNWR advance ticket on Avanti. So why do people think of buses differently? Or do they?

But what is the advantage for the passenger? Does splitting the network into components in this way achieve better patronage?

Just to reiterate what I posted a while back:

TfL could split their network into odd and even numbers and have a different fare scale on each. If you want to use an odd and even number route then you could get a more expensive 'all number' ticket. If you proposed that, people would think you were insane.

 

[Wolfie]

If you buy a sandwich in Tesco and another of the same price in Sainsburys, you pay the same as if you bought both at the same place. You can have loyalty cards for both shops so you don't really lose out there either, other than that it takes longer for either to realise any benefit.

People will probably plan their long-distance journeys longer in advance, and will probably book a seat on a specific flight or train, so will select the operator that is most suitable for them and stick to it (or in the case of rail pay a lot more for a walk-on). With a lot of bus routes it's a bit random which bus will come next, and what might be high-frequency routes during the day probably aren't if you return home in the evening, so you might need to wait a long time for your chosen operator or pay more to use a different one.

Basically local public transport is a bit different from most other things, and a monopoly will often actually be good for the customer.

Your first para is artificial. It is far from certain that the price of sandwiches, even with the same filling, is the same in different shops.

 

[edwin_m]

Your first para is artificial. It is far from certain that the price of sandwiches, even with the same filling, is the same in different shops.

My point may be artificial but your response is irrelevant. We have to assume the sandwiches are the same price to make the analogy with bus travel.

You may well respond that bus companies compete on price, but I think most people would prefer a reliable service at a reasonable fare to some random service where you might save a few pence. Especially if one of the operators succeeds in driving the other one off the route, and then puts the prices up again.

 

[Stan Drews]

TfL could split their network into odd and even numbers and have a different fare scale on each. If you want to use an odd and even number route then you could get a more expensive 'all number' ticket. If you proposed that, people would think you were insane.

However, if you introduced a lower priced ticket that can only be used on certain routes, would people still think you were insane - especially if they usually only used those certain routes?

 

[carlberry]

But what is the advantage for the passenger? Does splitting the network into components in this way achieve better patronage?

Just to reiterate what I posted a while back:

TfL could split their network into odd and even numbers and have a different fare scale on each. If you want to use an odd and even number route then you could get a more expensive 'all number' ticket. If you proposed that, people would think you were insane.

Why, the more expensive option already exists! I'd suggest that if TfL offered a lower priced ticket that was only available on odd numbered routes then, the people who were able to use that, would think it's wonderful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, if you introduced a lower priced ticket that can only be used on certain routes, would people still think you were insane - especially if they usually only used those certain routes?

The way to do that is areas/zones, not arbitrary routes. To be fair, because of the way GM operators are split up you sort of get that effect, but it isn't quite 100%, particularly on e.g. Wilmslow Road.

 

[johncrossley]

Why, the more expensive option already exists! I'd suggest that if TfL offered a lower priced ticket that was only available on odd numbered routes then, the people who were able to use that, would think it's wonderful.

Would you actually advocate splitting the network in such a manner? There's nothing stopping Stagecoach Manchester further subdividing their routes into odd and even? Would you advocate that?

 

[carlberry]

Would you actually advocate splitting the network in such a manner? There's nothing stopping Stagecoach Manchester further subdividing their routes into odd and even? Would you advocate that?

It's not 'splitting a network', it's setting a lower price for something that's of lower value. It doesnt matter what value has been attatched to an 'all network' ticket there should be nothing to stop lower price tickets being available if they're felt to be useful or viable. It's also a way of dealing with the problem that county border centric tickets will introduce where people who live on the borders suddenly have to pay because some of their journeys lies outside Manchester and some within.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also a way of dealing with the problem that county border centric tickets will introduce where people who live on the borders suddenly have to pay because some of their journeys lies outside Manchester and some within.

Or not, as TfL buses operating outside London use TfL ticketing. No reason GM can't do the same.

 

[johncrossley]

It's not 'splitting a network', it's setting a lower price for something that's of lower value. It doesnt matter what value has been attatched to an 'all network' ticket there should be nothing to stop lower price tickets being available if they're felt to be useful or viable. It's also a way of dealing with the problem that county border centric tickets will introduce where people who live on the borders suddenly have to pay because some of their journeys lies outside Manchester and some within.

How do you decide what tickets to have? Once you have decided that, how do you decide which routes are available with each ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you decide what tickets to have? Once you have decided that, how do you decide which routes are available with each ticket?

The easiest way if you wanted to do that would be single route seasons.

 

[carlberry]

How do you decide what tickets to have? Once you have decided that, how do you decide which routes are available with each ticket?

The original post was about operator specific tickets so the operators decide that they're available on their routes. This doesn't effect the 'network' at all.

 

[JetBlast]

Always fascinates me. No one expects to use their Tesco Clubcard vouchers in Sainsbury’s, their BA return ticket on Virgin, or even (though more arguable) their LNWR advance ticket on Avanti. So why do people think of buses differently? Or do they?

You have a freedom of choice with supermarket you go to, plus clubcard points etc are an optional additional perk. Most of the time you don't have a choice with public transport, you are stuck with 1 provider, it makes it even more of a pain when connecting with a different company. Plus the fares are not optional.