TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[stan claire]

So in short, this confirms 40 more EV buses for Bolton (Go-North West), 73 more EV buses for Queens Road (Stagecoach), and going on the wording in the larger document, 77 more new Euro VI buses for Stockport (Stagecoach) - the latter are marked as explicitly new buses in the TfGM document linked above.

These being on top of the various recent orders we were aware of: 19 StreetDeck Electroliners (EV) for Go-North West, the batch of E400 EV for Oldham (Stagecoach - I've still not quite worked out how many of them there are), the 59 E400 City for Stagecoach, 143 StreetDeck Ultroliner (diesel, all as far as I can tell for Metroline Manchester), E200 MMC (four for Stagecoach, quite a few more for Metroline Manchester), and of course the 182 Volvo BZLs (some for Stagecoach, some for Metroline - it was originally 150 'deckers and 20 s-d, but someone has ordered 12 more BZL s-d).

Am I missing anything?

On the FOI response I noticed 20 Ultroliners ordered by the operators rather than TFGM, are these part of the metroline order?
Also, aren't Bolton meant to be getting 40 more E400 EVs to join the current 50 as well as the electroliners? Would be nice if Bolton got some electric SDs like the Kites or the E200 to get rid of the older and sometimes-disgusting singles they currently have, that way they also give newer buses to more than just the same five routes (and I'm surprised they're still sending 73 plate MMCs to Johnson Fold considering kids throw bricks through them) but that's probably more for a speculative thread.
Also a bit annoying how there's been loads of new vehicles for Stagecoach and Metroline but then barely anything for the GNW services after the initial ADL order. Obviously, if the B9s have been looked after that well by GNW then they'll need to go first, and with the state of some of their citaros in Bolton it seems like they're very serious about maintenance

On the other hand, what actually is happening with the Bolton fleet? I've heard about the Citaros and (I believe) Eclipses being replaced, but both are still here, then they've also started refurbishing some of their singles... will they eventually be ordering new or just refurbishing what they have until they've reached the age cap? The BJ10s will obviously not have that long left if it's 15 years. Also not sure if this has just been another decision or a result of the Streetdecks going into refurbishment, but routes such as the 501 and 575 that were previously operated with doubles now have most journeys as a single. A few people I know who use these routes both say these are crowded and need doubles again, hopefully once refurbishment has finished this can be sorted. It'd also be nice if more 20 and 520 services were doubled as these often are crowded through Deane Road (especially at rush hour if the 607 doesn't show up!)

 

[mayneway]

I rather think you may be right re: the E400 City order.

That said, it has been noted up thread, I think, that a number of E400 MMCs were due to move to Queens Road following their replacement, but I could be wrong. There's an awful lot going on, and a whole lot to keep track of in the coming months!

Not sure where the idea of more MMC’s coming to Queens road has come from.
The 4 older E400’s are expected to move into the schools fleet to replace withdrawn TFGM Versa’s but as there’s still 6 24 plate E400MMC’s at Queens road I think the likely hood is these will remain until November when the new buses enter service at Stockport realising the older MMC’s to move to queens road.

 

[esmith2k5]

We are still 5 deckers too many at Queens, with them due to leave soon.
The remaining 24 plate MMC’s were due to move to commercial operations in Manchester but I suspect them will now stay allowing the older E400’s to move onto schools.

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It won’t happen!

I know when they acquired the Optare hybrids years ago it was a complete no no for them to work anything commercial.

Seen one of these new E40City Models heading down East Lancs road presumably to Wigan to storage as it was in Astley towards that way.

 

[M60lad]

Its not just 501 & 575 that have the problems with singles replacing deckers that were regularly on the route, over at Stagecoach at Oldham 181/182 Royton/Shaw-Manchester routes are now regularly E300s which sometimes can't cope especially during peaks and school kicking out time, even on Sundays 182 are mainly booked E300s when there's plenty of deckers going spare.

The odd thing is that the deckers that could be used on 181/182s are busy pottering round on local routes round Oldham.

 

[47550]

Possibly a bit of 2+2=5, but I wonder if the 59/60 E400City has become the 77 listed there for Stockport and the orders are one and the same?
Would explain the choice of City body - I couldn't see Stagecoach voluntarily opting for that.
Given there's 75 classic E400s currently at Stockport, I think it's fair to say that it will be a straightforward like-for-like replacement.

I wonder how the purchasing of the 170 BZLs originally destined for Stockport is being handled - presumably Stagecoach paid for them directly with no TfGM involvement originally...

https://www.uk-buses.co.uk/fleetlists/stagecoach.php is quoting the new E400 City's as being numbered 11881 to 11930. If this is accurate then the order is for 50 (not 59) - which makes a bit of sense as there were 50 Enviro 400's shown in the Freedom of Information request as being ordered by TfGM.

 

[Class 466]

Queens Roads allocation of 24 plate Enviro 400MMCs has dropped to 5 now. Previous plan of sending 74 plates there in place of Classic Enviro 400s has been ditched as per Mayneways postings.

 

[mayneway]

Queens Roads allocation of 24 plate Enviro 400MMCs has dropped to 5 now. Previous plan of sending 74 plates there in place of Classic Enviro 400s has been ditched as per Mayneways postings.

The remaining 5 should remain now until November when hopefully we start to see some real improvements to the Queens Road fleet.
Also still no sign of the older E400’s leaving.

27957 has returned from Anston in yellow with Bee network livery. It developed mechanical issues on its way back so was towed into Oldham, but has now returned to Queens road.

 

[MasterSpenny]

The first Wright Electroliner for Go North West has arrived. This one is due to become 2101.
Photo (not mine):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalevyking/54025527946/

 

[WWH44L]

The first Wright Electroliner for Go North West has arrived. This one is due to become 2201.
Photo (not mine):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalevyking/54025527946/

2101

 

[Class 466]

The remaining 5 should remain now until November when hopefully we start to see some real improvements to the Queens Road fleet.
Also still no sign of the older E400’s leaving.

27957 has returned from Anston in yellow with Bee network livery. It developed mechanical issues on its way back so was towed into Oldham, but has now returned to Queens road.

Yep, November is going to be the start of a period of change! With the Scania’s some of the first things to leave (much to the relief of pretty much everyone).

 

[stan claire]

The first Wright Electroliner for Go North West has arrived. This one is due to become 2201.
Photo (not mine):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossendalevyking/54025527946/

Does anyone here know if they’re going to a specific route to mostly electrify (like they did with the 36/37/471)? Or are they just going to be out and about everywhere?

 

[toms]

Does anyone here know if they’re going to a specific route to mostly electrify (like they did with the 36/37/471)? Or are they just going to be out and about everywhere?

Supposedly, according to some tfgm legal document thing, routes 471, 472 and 474 will be coming fully electric, idk if this is true or not but wouldn’t be suprised if the new electroliners get put on the same five routes and nothing else like they always do, then give busy routes like the 524 single decks

 

[Fox192]

Is anything leaving Manchester

 

[stan claire]

Supposedly, according to some tfgm legal document thing, routes 471, 472 and 474 will be coming fully electric, idk if this is true or not but wouldn’t be suprised if the new electroliners get put on the same five routes and nothing else like they always do, then give busy routes like the 524 single decks

From what I know they've already electrified the 471 (except the odd streetdeck when EVs are unavailable)
But surely it would make more sense to use these electroliners to improve capacity on singled routes such as the 575? A friend of mine constantly has issues with how full the 575 gets and they could also displace some of the MMCs to routes that would otherwise get the old grotboxes (aka mine)

 

[M60lad]

Is Heywood Depot electrified? As if it isn't then surely 472/474s will have to be run out of Bolton which will just leave 163s and Schools running out of Heywood Depot

 

[Dallamlad]

Is Heywood Depot electrified? As if it isn't then surely 472/474s will have to be run out of Bolton which will just leave 163s and Schools running out of Heywood Depot

472/74 and 163 will be moving back to Bolton as far as I know once they go electric leaving Heywood as a schools only depot.

 

[toms]

472/74 and 163 will be moving back to Bolton as far as I know once they go electric leaving Heywood as a schools only depot.

Makes sense

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From what I know they've already electrified the 471 (except the odd streetdeck when EVs are unavailable)
But surely it would make more sense to use these electroliners to improve capacity on singled routes such as the 575? A friend of mine constantly has issues with how full the 575 gets and they could also displace some of the MMCs to routes that would otherwise get the old grotboxes (aka mine)

575 is a Wigan route so I doubt these would be going on that

 

[stan claire]

575 is a Wigan route so I doubt these would be going on that

Do they not share depots (ie some diagrams use Bolton and the rest use Wigan)? If they do they should still use the electroliners on Bolton diagrams and micro hybrids on Wigan ones

 

[WWH44L]

Makes sense

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575 is a Wigan route so I doubt these would be going on that

575 is currently a Bolton route.

 

[mayneway]

472/74 and 163 will be moving back to Bolton as far as I know once they go electric leaving Heywood as a schools only depot.

I would imagine if that’s the case Heywood would close and the schools would move to Denton. Makes sense as the schools are in Tameside and Oldham anyway.

 

[toms]

I would imagine if that’s the case Heywood would close and the schools would move to Denton. Makes sense as the schools are in Tameside and Oldham anyway.

Tottington high school? That’s in bury

 

[Class 466]

Something I can’t get my head around. Stagecoach are moving on the Bee spec 24 plate E400MMC vehicles to various other depots, meanwhile they have ordered some E400 City vehicles again in Bee spec.

This will all become clear early next year.

 

[darylyates17]

This will all become clear early next year.

Would make sense for Stockport to get the 24 plates until enough vehicles turn up to replace the current fleet.

 

[mayneway]

Tottington high school? That’s in bury

Most of the schools are in Tameside and Oldham!
Can’t see them continuing to operate a depot for a handful of schools. Tottingham High school could probably run out of Bolton.

 

[ian1944]

Am I right in thinking that there's no garage between Sharston/Wythenshawe and Eccles. i.e the whole SW quadrant is empty? Would it not be worth having something in Sale or Stretford?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Am I right in thinking that there's no garage between Sharston/Wythenshawe and Eccles. i.e the whole SW quadrant is empty? Would it not be worth having something in Sale or Stretford?

There hasn’t been for years - Urmston went in the 70s, Altrincham in the 90s and Hulme Hall c2000. It doesn’t take long to get to Stretford or Sale from elsewhere with the M60

 

[daodao]

There hasn’t been for years - Urmston went in the 70s, Altrincham in the 90s and Hulme Hall c2000. It doesn’t take long to get to Stretford or Sale from elsewhere with the M60

Sale and Altrincham are also close to the Wythenshawe depot.

 

[GWVillager]

472/74 and 163 will be moving back to Bolton as far as I know once they go electric leaving Heywood as a schools only depot.

Will the new electrics enable the 472/474 for to go back up to every 15 minutes or is that a pipe dream at this point?

 

[317 forever]

Something I can’t get my head around. Stagecoach are moving on the Bee spec 24 plate E400MMC vehicles to various other depots, meanwhile they have ordered some E400 City vehicles again in Bee spec.

Maybe the idea is that the 24 reg MMCs will settle at tranche 2 depots, but the 74 reg City's will settle mainly at tranche 3 depots plus replace the oldest buses still at tranche 2 depots?

 

[stan claire]

Will the new electrics enable the 472/474 for to go back up to every 15 minutes or is that a pipe dream at this point?

Don't they interwork to make 15 minute frequency combined? Or are you on about both individual services?