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To my mind there's a good reason to put "Manchester", which is that an unfamiliar passenger going there probably knows that they are heading for Manchester, but might well not know the specific terminus they need to look for, especially if the nearest stop to their destination is actually before the terminus. Besides, from most of the outer reaches of GM there is only one option for Manchester terminus anyway.
IMO the best way of doing this would be that it says Manchester until it gets close to the city centre and then changes to something more specific. This is actually what the interior displays and announcements do, switching from "This is the 36 service to Manchester" to "This is the 36 service to Piccadilly Gardens" on reaching Salford. Unfortunately the exterior and interior are controlled by separate systems (for which different bodies are responsible, for some reason!) which is presumably why this isn't replicated on the exterior.
Well blinds in London dont say ‘London’ they would have Aldwych, Euston etc for example. I’m pretty sure ‘unfamiliar passengers’ find it ok. Although it would help if it said some of the larger stops below the terminus. Eg. 36 - Piccadilly, underneath it scrolls through the places the route passes through. Similar to the Stagecoach blinds. As I said, hopefully TfGM apply a rule that means all operators have to stick to the same font, size etc.
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In my opinion the Stagecoach displays are the best. Numbers are easy to read and it scrolls along the bottom showing all significant calling points, as opposed to other operators which only show 2 or three. Numbers are much easier to read from a distance than the GNW ones which have a weird font.
London is an order of magnitude bigger than Manchester though. Someone travelling in from the outer reaches is more likely to know they have to aim for a specific bit of the city.
I'd also say London is the outlier here, not Manchester. Birmingham buses display "Birmingham". Sheffield buses (well, those that actually terminate in the city) display "Sheffield Centre" or simply "City Centre", to give two examples I'm aware of off the top of my head.
Well blinds in London dont say ‘London’ they would have Aldwych, Euston etc for example. I’m pretty sure ‘unfamiliar passengers’ find it ok. Although it would help if it said some of the larger stops below the terminus. Eg. 36 - Piccadilly, underneath it scrolls through the places the route passes through. Similar to the Stagecoach blinds.
I think the scrolling blinds create more problems than they solve. You don't have time for the whole thing to scroll through as the bus approaches, calling points that have already been passed don't get removed from them so when you get halfway through a route they are ambiguous, and I know I've said this before, but the destination text is too small to read from a distance.
Stagecoach Manchester is now the only major operator I'm aware of that still uses this layout, and with good reason!
London is an order of magnitude bigger than Manchester though. Someone travelling in from the outer reaches is more likely to know they have to aim for a specific bit of the city.
I'd also say London is the outlier here, not Manchester. Birmingham buses display "Birmingham". Sheffield buses (well, those that actually terminate in the city) display "Sheffield Centre" or simply "City Centre", to give two examples I'm aware of off the top of my head.
True, although what I was saying is, for example, a passenger wants to go from Leigh to Piccadilly. So they board the bus that says ‘Manchester’, although now they are unsure which part they are going to MRI, Shudehill, Town hall, Piccadilly.
The idea is not that they should be on the right specifically but that they should be on the nearside of the road, so in countries where traffic drives on the other side of the road you'll see route numbers on the left as standard.
As for why, I believe there was a study quite a while ago that established that it makes things easier for passengers in more cases than not. For example, if several buses are queued up at a stop, the ones in front will obscure the offside of the ones behind, so putting the route number on the nearside makes it easier to identify buses by number in this situation.
There is guidance which suggests a preference for right hand route numbers but the angle of many bus destinations can make them hard to view from the kerb.
What route is this one on for example?
That's not a brilliant example, as the bus is quite clearly angled to turn off the road before the point at which the photographer is standing!
In reality there are some situations where a left side route number will be more readable and some where a right side one will be. To my mind what matters is that there's a standard, giving a consistent appearance across the network so passengers know what to look for. I don't particularly mind whether it's the right or the left!
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True, although what I was saying is, for example, a passenger wants to go from Leigh to Piccadilly. So they board the bus that says ‘Manchester’, although now they are unsure which part they are going to MRI, Shudehill, Town hall, Piccadilly.
Once all buses are up to spec, this situation will be solved by the interior displays which will show more specific route information. IMO the exterior displays should be optimised for allowing boarding passengers to identify their bus as easily as possible, then the interior ones should help passengers work out where specifically to alight. I do see your point though to some extent.
Once all buses are up to spec, this situation will be solved by the interior displays which will show more specific route information. IMO the exterior displays should be optimised for allowing boarding passengers to identify their bus as easily as possible, then the interior ones should help passengers work out where specifically to alight. I do see your point though to some extent.
Yeah, that’s very true as well. Hopefully in time all vehicles will get full refurb with announcements and screens. Do you know what the date for completing this, I’m guessing quite a way off.
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Ahh okay. Sorry about that! Will they move to Little Hulton to do schools work then? Are the E300s going to do schools work as well? So which routes will the E200MMCs operate on and what about the 487 and 94 if they are moving to Hyde Road. Or am I getting this completely wrong and they are ordering more E200MMCs. Sorry again!
Yeah, that’s very true as well. Hopefully in time all vehicles will get full refurb with announcements and screens. Do you know what the date for completing this, I’m guessing quite a way off.
Don't quote me on this but I think i read somewhere that operators have a deadline for getting their vehicles fully compliant with TfGM spec of 2 years after commencing operation. That would mean September 2025 for tranche 1 and of course later for tranches 2 and 3. There will inevitably be some software issues to iron out as well so we could be looking at 2027-2028 before it's working universally across the network, although I'd hope it would be mostly there some time before that.
In theory it will be mandatory nationwide from October 2024 (for buses less than 5 years old), 2025 (buses 5-15 years old) or 2026 (older buses), but I'll be very surprised if those deadlines aren't missed in a lot of places (the 2020 PRM deadline all over again...)
Don't quote me on this but I think i read somewhere that operators have a deadline for getting their vehicles fully compliant with TfGM spec of 2 years after commencing operation. That would mean September 2025 for tranche 1 and of course later for tranches 2 and 3. There will inevitably be some software issues to iron out as well so we could be looking at 2027-2028 before it's working universally across the network, although I'd hope it would be mostly there some time before that.
To be fair, London got their onboard information system rolled out in the space of 3 years (2006-2009), and that was starting from a much less advanced point (the Bee Network buses are already equipped with GPS for example), with the technology far less proven than it is now, and with a far larger bus fleet to get through. So the whole Manchester network covered by 2028 does seem eminently achievable if they work reasonably quickly, which they seem to be doing.
To be fair, London got their onboard information system rolled out in the space of 3 years (2006-2009), and that was starting from a much less advanced point (the Bee Network buses are already equipped with GPS for example), with the technology far less proven than it is now, and with a far larger bus fleet to get through. So the whole Manchester network covered by 2028 does seem eminently achievable if they work reasonably quickly, which they seem to be doing.
As you said it was a lot less advanced. The tech they plan to put into these vehicles is very advanced. The announcements, screens, radios, new seats, new interiors, engine type stickers. Must be very expensive, hopefully the outcome will be good!
Presumably the E400s will just be long-term temporary on schools - wasn't there a Stagecoach to have nothing older than '17' plate in Manchester when everything had settled? That may have changed in respect of TfGM owned stuff but may still be in play for Stagecoach's own assets?
Wasn't there a Stagecoach to have nothing older than '17' plate in Manchester when everything had settled? That may have changed in respect of TfGM owned stuff but may still be in play for Stagecoach's own assets?
I highly doubt this is the case now, that means replacing a load of vehicles. The limit should be at least 60 plates or something like that. There are a lot of Mk2 E400s, E400Hs, E200s and even E400MMCs that will need replacing. Seems unprofitable.
In my opinion the Stagecoach displays are the best. Numbers are easy to read and it scrolls along the bottom showing all significant calling points, as opposed to other operators which only show 2 or three. Numbers are much easier to read from a distance than the GNW ones which have a weird font.
Disagree. The GNW style is far superior and looks a lot better. Got to say during my time with Go North West there were never any issues with destinations, whereas now buses new and old seem dogged with issues.
I highly doubt this is the case now, that means replacing a load of vehicles. The limit should be at least 60 plates or something like that. There are a lot of Mk2 E400s, E400Hs, E200s and even E400MMCs that will need replacing. Seems unprofitable.
Thats stagecoach's plan when bee network is settled as stated. Majority of them vehicles are gonna be cascaded anyway giving the ability to go 17+. Hence why currently their 17 plates are being refurb and repaint.
Thats stagecoach's plan when bee network is settled as stated. Majority of them vehicles are gonna be cascaded anyway giving the ability to go 17+. Hence why currently their 17 plates are being refurb and repaint.
Does that include single deckers? Stagecoach are refurbishing all the ex-first 13 plate E300s into Bee Network spec so they must be planning on keeping those.
Does that include single deckers? Stagecoach are refurbishing all the ex-first 13 plate E300s into Bee Network spec so they must be planning on keeping those.
Thats stagecoach's plan when bee network is settled as stated. Majority of them vehicles are gonna be cascaded anyway giving the ability to go 17+. Hence why currently their 17 plates are being refurb and repaint.
Are most of the E400Hs and E400MMCs (SL64 and SN16 regs) going to Metroline in T3. I would assume so as they have got quite a bit of life left in them. Even the 12 plate onwards E400s are fine for another few years. Also what will happen to the E200s will someone like Metroline or Go-Ahead take them.
I highly doubt this is the case now, that means replacing a load of vehicles. The limit should be at least 60 plates or something like that. There are a lot of Mk2 E400s, E400Hs, E200s and even E400MMCs that will need replacing. Seems unprofitable.
That is the plan. You’re forgetting most of South Manchester is going to Metroline in a few months so isn’t Stagecoach’s problem. Plenty of new vehicles on order. Including some arriving this week.
Are most of the E400Hs and E400MMCs (SL64 and SN16 regs) going to Metroline in T3. I would assume so as they have got quite a bit of life left in them. Even the 12 plate onwards E400s are fine for another few years. Also what will happen to the E200s will someone like Metroline or Go-Ahead take them.
The E400Hs will likely go Metroline (Stagecoach aren't keen on them), but the E400MMCs will be cascaded to other parts of Stagecoach around the country - remember that, in January, Stagecoach only will have Stockport depot in south Manchester - why would they want to give perfectly good buses in their livery away to Metroline. They will likely be used alongside the older 08-59 reg E400s to usher out remaining ALX400s. With the 12 plate E400s, I believe they are due to transfer to Stagecoach East Midlands. 10042-45 have already gone, but the remaining 6 are still required at Hyde Road, and will likely go in the new year.
That is the plan. You’re forgetting most of South Manchester is going to Metroline in a few months so isn’t Stagecoach’s problem. Plenty of new vehicles on order. Including some arriving this week.
The E400Hs will likely go Metroline (Stagecoach aren't keen on them), but the E400MMCs will be cascaded to other parts of Stagecoach around the country - remember that, in January, Stagecoach only will have Stockport depot in south Manchester - why would they want to give perfectly good buses in their livery away to Metroline. They will likely be used alongside the older 08-59 reg E400s to usher out remaining ALX400s. With the 12 plate E400s, I believe they are due to transfer to Stagecoach East Midlands. 10042-45 have already gone, but the remaining 6 are still required at Hyde Road, and will likely go in the new year.
I would have thought most of the 64 plate onwards E400MMCs would go to Metroline as they don’t have any 400MMCs on order, obviously not. Although that’s very true about what you said giving away perfectly fine vehicles in their commercial livery. They could make some good money selling them to Metroline to invest in new buses on other Stagecoach subsidiaries, obviously not on their list.
Do you know what will happen to the MX62 and YX64 reg E200s that Stagecoach have, are they owned by TfGM and are safe from the ‘only 17 onwards plate vehicles allowed’ rule or will they go to somewhere like Metroline or Go-Ahead ready for their Tameside operations in January. If they did all go would they be replaced by new E200MMCs??
True, although what I was saying is, for example, a passenger wants to go from Leigh to Piccadilly. So they board the bus that says ‘Manchester’, although now they are unsure which part they are going to MRI, Shudehill, Town hall, Piccadilly.
It could be Transport for Greater Manchester specification. Either way, the likes of Shudehill, Piccadilly should only be front and centre on a service running within Manchester. "Town Hall" is so generic it is useless as a destination!
Out-of-town origin routes should really show the locality, however Manchester Royal Infirmary would be different as that is a destination in its own right.
There's nothing stopping the operator (or TfGM) requesting the terminus is shown on the bottom line and it paging between that and via points.
It could be Transport for Greater Manchester specification. Either way, the likes of Shudehill, Piccadilly should only be front and centre on a service running within Manchester. "Town Hall" is so generic it is useless as a destination!
Out-of-town origin routes should really show the locality, however Manchester Royal Infirmary would be different as that is a destination in its own right.
There's nothing stopping the operator (or TfGM) requesting the terminus is shown on the bottom line and it paging between that and via points.
Takes no longer than the diamond/Go North West style that flicks between as many locations but statically instead of scrolling. As a regular user of both I really don’t see it as big an issue as a couple of people on here do - there aren’t masses of complaints on the ground and all of South Manchester seems to have coped for a number of years with it.
Takes no longer than the diamond/Go North West style that flicks between as many locations but statically instead of scrolling. As a regular user of both I really don’t see it as big an issue as a couple of people on here do - there aren’t masses of complaints on the ground and all of South Manchester seems to have coped for a number of years with it.
It is down to how many via points are used - when the 38 was introduced, there were so many unnecessary ones included (Spinningfields was one I recall), that it took forever to get around. That and scrolling uses a lot more memory space.
It's all about striking a balance - but I'm pretty sure you can change the paging speed in Hanover.
Anyway, we've gone way off topic here so probably best to stop!
Do you know what types of vehicles are planned to arrive?
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I would have thought most of the 64 plate onwards E400MMCs would go to Metroline as they don’t have any 400MMCs on order, obviously not. Although that’s very true about what you said giving away perfectly fine vehicles in their commercial livery. They could make some good money selling them to Metroline to invest in new buses on other Stagecoach subsidiaries, obviously not on their list.
Do you know what will happen to the MX62 and YX64 reg E200s that Stagecoach have, are they owned by TfGM and are safe from the ‘only 17 onwards plate vehicles allowed’ rule or will they go to somewhere like Metroline or Go-Ahead ready for their Tameside operations in January. If they did all go would they be replaced by new E200MMCs??
Considering the YX64 plates are used exclusively on school buses, I would have thought that they would be exempt from the rule - could be wrong, however. They are not currently owned by TfGM, and I know that there are no plans to sell them. Regarding the MX62 plates, I would suspect they will be swapped for some 67/18/68 plate E200MMCs from another division. Perhaps one which will have some extra buses following the cascade of south Manchester vehicles in January??
Considering the YX64 plates are used exclusively on school buses, I would have thought that they would be exempt from the rule - could be wrong, however. They are not currently owned by TfGM, and I know that there are no plans to sell them. Regarding the MX62 plates, I would suspect they will be swapped for some 67/18/68 plate E200MMCs from another division. Perhaps one which will have some extra buses following the cascade of south Manchester vehicles in January??
Ahh ok, thanks. I did see a couple of YX64s on some non-school routes recently although it is the holidays. Will they ever go back to non-school operations? Which division do you think they get the MMCs from? Do you think there is a chance of the MX62 reg E200s going to Metroline?
Ahh ok, thanks. I did see a couple of YX64s on some non-school routes recently although it is the holidays. Will they ever go back to non-school operations? Which division do you think they get the MMCs from? Do you think there is a chance of the MX62 reg E200s going to Metroline?
Yeah the unusual allocations should stop now - just a summer holiday thing. They almost certainly won't go back to commercial operations in GM, as they will be too 'old'. Also, some have been repainted into the 2024 navy blue trial livery, so Stagecoach wouldn't do that if they had an intention of putting them in yellow in the near future.
My prediction for the MMCs would be that they come either from the East Midlands or South Wales operations. Both of these divisions have buses of the perfect age for GM school services. Also, South Wales will be able to lose some buses with the arrival of the ex Bee Network Optare Solo SRs (Stagecoach 24 plates which they were meant to get a few months ago), whilst East Midlands will likely be high on the list for some of the cascades from Tranche 3 anyway - they have a considerable amount of ALX400s as well as some old B7RLEs. Surely trading 10 MMCs between them in exchange for some other buses will be a relatively simple job?
Transferring to Metroline is a very unlikely prospect, as Metroline would not want or need some fully Stagecoach spec buses - if they needed single decks an order of E200MMCs seems much more likely.
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