TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[Andyh82]

I’m of the mind we should just park this discussion and pick it up again in December unless something factual actually gets announced

People asking questions about very detailed fleet scenarios and tying themselves in knots with all the various permutations every single day between now and next January is going to get pretty tiring pretty soon.

 

[mayneway]

16825 (MX58DXH) had a very minor thermal incident a few weeks back, got repaired - broke down yesterday morning on the 41, came back out and broke down on the 93 in the afternoon - then came out this morning and broke down again on the 135. They’re becoming increasingly unreliable so the sooner they can be replaced the better now.

Yep it went down on Cromwell road halfway through a trip on the 93 back to shudehill. Believe the water pump failed. Not sure what the issue was this morning though.

The big problem with the B9’s and Scania’s is to resolve the reoccurring problems they need them off the road for a couple of weeks at a time to overhaul vital components like the euro 6 mod and the cooling systems but with such tight numbers on spares it’s near impossible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

The Evora at Birkenhead is 21419, although neither were visible when I passed that depot earlier today

Both the Evora and 11850 have now returned to Queens road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

The ADLs (08-59) are in very bad condition. From a driver's point of view, the ADLs are very tired, some are very loud (58s) and they break down even more frequently than the B9s. Stagecoach constantly are swapping them in the middle of duties, to try and prevent them from breaking down.

From a passengers point of view, the B9s are also far better. Many of them were given an interior refurb with GNW (Go North West), and look much smarter inside, as well as being much brighter and airier than the E400s, which have broken lighting and incredibly worn seating having been on Magic Bus routes for 5+ years.

Biggest gripes with the B9’s are the euro 6 mod and the derate issues and constant coolant leaks.
The E400’s mainly seem to be bogged with electrical issues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

wouldn't that cause a bit of a pickle with Stagecoach in the future after finding out they can send the remaining BZL from the factory, and having that some are already in service at Middleton... wouldn't it make more sense for Stagecoach to keep those BZL left at MCV Factory and await till stockpot electrification until completion. Then with Metroline not yet discussing if they have enough/have plenty of vehicles to operate from 5th January it seems very unlikely that metroline would obtain those E40H

The picture with Stagecoach changes on a daily basis. I think it’s a wait and see scenario.
Apparently the best phase of Middleton depot being electrified if them having to operate from elsewhere for around 2 weeks while the work is completed in the depot itself. If that’s true where will they operate out of?

As for Metroline. I’m told they have the vehicles they require but TFGM are around 156 buses short for what they are providing.

 

[Leyland Bus]

I’m of the mind we should just park this discussion and pick it up again in December unless something factual actually gets announced

People asking questions about very detailed fleet scenarios and tying themselves in knots with all the various permutations every single day between now and next January is going to get pretty tiring pretty soon.

You must have more patience than me, I'm already fed up of it...

 

[WWH44L]

I’m of the mind we should just park this discussion and pick it up again in December unless something factual actually gets announced

People asking questions about very detailed fleet scenarios and tying themselves in knots with all the various permutations every single day between now and next January is going to get pretty tiring pretty soon.

Wholeheartedly agree! I’ve lost count over the number of times I’ve rolled my eyes with repeated speculative questions and rumours. Let’s wait until those in the know are able to give the facts.

 

[LYuen]

AD24BEV (Enviro400EV demonstrator) on 83 service yesterday and today

 

[py_megapixel]

AD24BEV (Enviro400EV demonstrator) on 83 service yesterday and today

How long is it in Manchester for?

 

[CJ1]

AD24BEV (Enviro400EV demonstrator) on 83 service yesterday and today

What is the purpose of its visit. I’m assuming it’s to promote the vehicle to get more sales and see is Stagecoach want to buy some?? I think I heard somewhere that another BN operator had bought some?

 

[Tim33160]

What is the purpose of its visit. I’m assuming it’s to promote the vehicle to get more sales and see is Stagecoach want to buy some?? I think I heard somewhere that another BN operator had bought some?

Reported as driver familiarisation :
Demonstrator ADL E400EV AD24 BEV is on loan to S-Manchester at Oldham pending deliveries of new 80201-50.

 

[gka472l]

Reported as driver familiarisation :
Demonstrator ADL E400EV AD24 BEV is on loan to S-Manchester at Oldham pending deliveries of new 80201-50.

Is there a definite order of these for Manchester??? As some of that number series is actually down for Stagecoach London, and those numbers are very similar to already delivered 84201-50

 

[Class 466]

I’m of the mind we should just park this discussion and pick it up again in December unless something factual actually gets announced

People asking questions about very detailed fleet scenarios and tying themselves in knots with all the various permutations every single day between now and next January is going to get pretty tiring pretty soon.

Given there will be plenty of fleet changes coming with Stagecoach over the autumn I would politely disagree with parking anything seriously. Tranche 1 may not see much change beyond 19 Electroliners but Tranche 2 is still in the process of a massive renewal.

Is there a definite order of these for Manchester??? As some of that number series is actually down for Stagecoach London, and those numbers are very similar to already delivered 84201-50

Yes there is - originally intended for Queens Road but now diverted to Oldham to displace 11254-71 & 11504-29 to Queens Road to kickstart the cascade of B9s away.

The yellow school versas are due to be withdrawn in the next few weeks being replaced by 4 Enviro 300s and 14 Enviro 400s from Middleton & Queens Road. These in turn being replaced by new Diesel vehicles ordered earlier this year. They’ll remain there until Middleton Electrification is completed later this year.

 

[CJ1]

Reported as driver familiarisation :
Demonstrator ADL E400EV AD24 BEV is on loan to S-Manchester at Oldham pending deliveries of new 80201-50.

Have they bought any Enviro 100 EVs along with the 400s?

 

[mbonwick]

The yellow school versas are due to be withdrawn in the next few weeks being replaced by 4 Enviro 300s and 14 Enviro 400s from Middleton & Queens Road. These in turn being replaced by new Diesel vehicles ordered earlier this year. They’ll remain there until Middleton Electrification is completed later this year.

Is that implying that a deal has been struck to keep some of the new 'contingency' vehicles, and reduce the madness of 6month old vehicles being cascaded away and repainted? Or are these different types of previosuly un-noted (as far I know) orders - in which case an additional order makes sense?

 

[Class 466]

Is that implying that a deal has been struck to keep some of the new 'contingency' vehicles, and reduce the madness of 6month old vehicles being cascaded away and repainted? Or are these different types of previosuly un-noted (as far I know) orders - in which case an additional order makes sense?

The 4 Enviro 200MMCs and 14 Enviro 40MMCs were ordered by TfGM for Tranche 3 but as they’re built and available, they’ve been diverted to Tranche 2 and the order expanded. 19429 & 19481-483 will leave Queens Road in the next week or two having been replaced by 4x 74 plates.

 

[M60lad]

In theory could any of the 14 E400s & 4 E300s actually end up in service or are they just going to be restricted to School duties, also considering Oldham have already got E300s in the fleet what's stopping those being used on Schools?

 

[Class 466]

In theory could any of the 14 E400s & 4 E300s actually end up in service or are they just going to be restricted to School duties, also considering Oldham have already got E300s in the fleet what's stopping those being used on Schools?

Some will be based at Oldham so could in theory go out on normal services but others will move to the schools only depot at Little Hulton.

 

[CJ1]

The 4 Enviro 200MMCs and 14 Enviro 40MMCs were ordered by TfGM for Tranche 3 but as they’re built and available, they’ve been diverted to Tranche 2 and the order expanded. 19429 & 19481-483 will leave Queens Road in the next week or two having been replaced by 4x 74 plates.

Is that 4x 74 plate E400MMCs? Or are they expanding the E200MMC order?

 

[Class 466]

Is that 4x 74 plate E400MMCs? Or are they expanding the E200MMC order?

Yes, they’re not replacing double deckers with single deckers.

The Enviro 200MMCs (now delivered to Hyde Road) will replace 4 Enviro 300s.

 

[CJ1]

Yes, they’re not replacing double deckers with single deckers.

The Enviro 200MMCs (now delivered to Hyde Road) will replace 4 Enviro 300s.

No, I meant are they getting more E200MMCs to replace the E300s as they only have 3 operating on the 487 and 94 routes.

Finally they are getting rid of the ancient 58 and 09 reg E400s. Are they being scrapped or cascaded?

 

[Fox192]

No, I meant are they getting more E200MMCs to replace the E300s as they only have 3 operating on the 487 and 94 routes.

Finally they are getting rid of the ancient 58 and 09 reg E400s. Are they being scrapped or cascaded?

They will be cascaded most likely

 

[py_megapixel]

Stagecoach could still do with a bit of work on their destination displays... there don't seem to be many completely broken ones any more, but they still have rather small text, and maybe I'm just unlucky but I keep seeing ones set in the wrong direction (most recently a Middleton 41 set for Sale)

 

[CJ1]

Stagecoach could still do with a bit of work on their destination displays... there don't seem to be many completely broken ones any more, but they still have rather small text, and maybe I'm just unlucky but I keep seeing ones set in the wrong direction (most recently a Middleton 41 set for Sale)

I don’t know why all the BN operators put ‘Manchester’ on their displays as it’s a bit misleading. Why don’t they put Piccadilly/Gardens, Shudehill, MRI, Town Hall etc. So passengers actually know which part of Manchester they are going to.

 

[toms]

I don’t know why all the BN operators put ‘Manchester’ on their displays as it’s a bit misleading. Why don’t they put Piccadilly/Gardens, Shudehill, MRI, Town Hall etc. So passengers actually know which part of Manchester they are going to.

In my opinion they should be all in the same font style. They should all be in the font Go North West uses with no caps other than for nouns and with the correct destination (eg. Piccadilly Gardens 36) First Manchester had a shambles of a time when it came to their destination displays at the start of tranche 2. Destinations in all capitals should not happen

 

[CBlue]

I don’t know why all the BN operators put ‘Manchester’ on their displays as it’s a bit misleading. Why don’t they put Piccadilly/Gardens, Shudehill, MRI, Town Hall etc. So passengers actually know which part of Manchester they are going to.

"BN" ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==

No, I meant are they getting more E200MMCs to replace the E300s as they only have 3 operating on the 487 and 94 routes.

Finally they are getting rid of the ancient 58 and 09 reg E400s. Are they being scrapped or cascaded?

Given there are still ALX400 Tridents operating in some parts of the group, id imagine the "ancient" (more like mid life) E400s are getting cascaded.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

"BN" ?

I read it as "Bee Network"

 

[py_megapixel]

I don’t know why all the BN operators put ‘Manchester’ on their displays as it’s a bit misleading. Why don’t they put Piccadilly/Gardens, Shudehill, MRI, Town Hall etc. So passengers actually know which part of Manchester they are going to.

In my opinion they should be all in the same font style. They should all be in the font Go North West uses with no caps other than for nouns and with the correct destination (eg. Piccadilly Gardens 36) First Manchester had a shambles of a time when it came to their destination displays at the start of tranche 2. Destinations in all capitals should not happen

To my mind there's a good reason to put "Manchester", which is that an unfamiliar passenger going there probably knows that they are heading for Manchester, but might well not know the specific terminus they need to look for, especially if the nearest stop to their destination is actually before the terminus. Besides, from most of the outer reaches of GM there is only one option for Manchester terminus anyway.

IMO the best way of doing this would be that it says Manchester until it gets close to the city centre and then changes to something more specific. This is actually what the interior displays and announcements do, switching from "This is the 36 service to Manchester" to "This is the 36 service to Piccadilly Gardens" on reaching Salford. Unfortunately the exterior and interior are controlled by separate systems (for which different bodies are responsible, for some reason!) which is presumably why this isn't replicated on the exterior.

Agree re capitals. The accessibility regs are very clear that destinations are not to be written in capital letters only, and for some reason they have decided to ignore that. Also, some First destinations have the route number on the left, which is not good practice, while some "correctly" put it on the right. There is a total lack of consistency.

"BN" ?

"Bee Network"

 

[xitz2012@gmail]

In my opinion they should be all in the same font style. They should all be in the font Go North West uses with no caps other than for nouns and with the correct destination (eg. Piccadilly Gardens 36) First Manchester had a shambles of a time when it came to their destination displays at the start of tranche 2. Destinations in all capitals should not happen

In my opinion the Stagecoach displays are the best. Numbers are easy to read and it scrolls along the bottom showing all significant calling points, as opposed to other operators which only show 2 or three. Numbers are much easier to read from a distance than the GNW ones which have a weird font.

 

[py_megapixel]

In my opinion the Stagecoach displays are the best. Numbers are easy to read and it scrolls along the bottom showing all significant calling points, as opposed to other operators which only show 2 or three. Numbers are much easier to read from a distance than the GNW ones which have a weird font.

In practice though you can't see all the calling points as the bus approaches, because the text is too small to read from a distance and it takes too long to scroll through them all.

 

[CJ1]

In my opinion they should be all in the same font style. They should all be in the font Go North West uses with no caps other than for nouns and with the correct destination (eg. Piccadilly Gardens 36) First Manchester had a shambles of a time when it came to their destination displays at the start of tranche 2. Destinations in all capitals should not happen

Yes, I remember First’s displays in T2. They were horrible. Hopefully TFGM put a rule in place to make sure all displays are the same size, font etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==

"BN" ?

Bee Network.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==

Given there are still ALX400 Tridents operating in some parts of the group, id imagine the "ancient" (more like mid life) E400s are getting cascaded.

Well, they are not ‘ancient’ they just have no place in a large and modern city like Manchester. They are loud, knackered and not environmentally friendly. Even something like the 11 onwards plates E400s are better.

 

[Delenn]

To my mind there's a good reason to put "Manchester", which is that an unfamiliar passenger going there probably knows that they are heading for Manchester, but might well not know the specific terminus they need to look for, especially if the nearest stop to their destination is actually before the terminus. Besides, from most of the outer reaches of GM there is only one option for Manchester terminus anyway.

IMO the best way of doing this would be that it says Manchester until it gets close to the city centre and then changes to something more specific. This is actually what the interior displays and announcements do, switching from "This is the 36 service to Manchester" to "This is the 36 service to Piccadilly Gardens" on reaching Salford. Unfortunately the exterior and interior are controlled by separate systems (for which different bodies are responsible, for some reason!) which is presumably why this isn't replicated on the exterior.

Agree re capitals. The accessibility regs are very clear that destinations are not to be written in capital letters only, and for some reason they have decided to ignore that. Also, some First destinations have the route number on the left, which is not good practice, while some "correctly" put it on the right. There is a total lack of consistency.


"Bee Network"

I'm interested in your comment about left side route numbers not being good practice. I had no idea that was a thing. Why is that?

 

[Leedsbusman]

I'm interested in your comment about left side route numbers not being good practice. I had no idea that was a thing. Why is that?

There is guidance which suggests a preference for right hand route numbers but the angle of many bus destinations can make them hard to view from the kerb.
What route is this one on for example?

light mornings

35204 in Meanwood heading for Moor Allerton Centre with a 51 from Morley. This duty the 08.45 Morley - MA, is a pure AM peak turn and will run in to Hunslet Park depot on arrival at the terminus.

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