TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[Citibus]

Yeah true, most time I see a E200 pretty much empty on a ‘small’ route although it does depend on the time of day. Have First or Stagecoach got any plans for ordering any other vehicles, or even Go-Ahead or Diamond? (If anyone knows)

Surely Go Ahead will be replacing the buses used on the V1 and V2 former Vantage routes soon enough. A BZL decker was trialled at Bolton depot for reportedly such a purpose. The current buses would no doubt have been replaced and cascaded outside a franchised system.

 

[mayneway]

Why are they no longer required. Where they interim vehicles while they wait for something more suitable? Will all the Solos eventually move to South Wales or other depots around the country?

The Solos were temporary as there was a delay with the Mellors, but yeah TFGM specified Mellors for queens road not Solos.
Not sure if any of Oldhams are going, I doubt it as everyone thought all 4 were going to Oldham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Surely Go Ahead will be replacing the buses used on the V1 and V2 former Vantage routes soon enough. A BZL decker was trialled at Bolton depot for reportedly such a purpose. The current buses would no doubt have been replaced and cascaded outside a franchised system.

It’s down to TFGM to organise replacements for the V1/V2 just like it is for the Free Bus in the city centre.

 

[CJ1]

Surely Go Ahead will be replacing the buses used on the V1 and V2 former Vantage routes soon enough. A BZL decker was trialled at Bolton depot for reportedly such a purpose. The current buses would no doubt have been replaced and cascaded outside a franchised system.

Really? Those vehicles aren’t even that old, just to clarify are you taking about the B5LH Gem 3s with the 65 and 66 regs? If they were to be replaced with EVs would they move to another depot within GM or go to somewhere else in the country?

 

[Dallamlad]

GMCA have signed off funding for around 90 electric vehicles for tranche 1 and 2 so they will begin to turn up at some point. As mentioned in this thread work has to be done on some depots to install new or additional charging infrastructure.

In terms of the V1 and V2 fleet they will be replaced. TFGM were given cash from the government for a new fleet just before Covid hit and the money went unspent because of lockdown and it was then withdrawn by the DFT so the ambition for new buses has been around a while.

When the former vantage vehicles are replaced I imagine they will be moved to other routes by TFGM who own them.

I would guess (and it is a guess) that some of those 90 vehicles on order will include new free bus vehicles as well for Queens Road.

A quick word on the Stratas. On some routes like the 477 between Bury and Ramsbottom you simply do not need anything bigger. Even a small E200 would be too big. They go around all the little housing estates and provide mobility to mostly older people. TFGM subsidised such services before franchising and so will know what loadings they get and have allocated vehicles accordingly

 

[mayneway]

GMCA have signed off funding for around 90 electric vehicles for tranche 1 and 2 so they will begin to turn up at some point. As mentioned in this thread work has to be done on some depots to install new or additional charging infrastructure.

In terms of the V1 and V2 fleet they will be replaced. TFGM were given cash from the government for a new fleet just before Covid hit and the money went unspent because of lockdown and it was then withdrawn by the DFT so the ambition for new buses has been around a while.

When the former vantage vehicles are replaced I imagine they will be moved to other routes by TFGM who own them.

I would guess (and it is a guess) that some of those 90 vehicles on order will include new free bus vehicles as well for Queens Road.

A quick work on the Stratas. On some routes like the 477 between Bury and Ramsbottom you simply do not need anything bigger. Even a small E200 would be too big. They go around all the little housing estates and provide mobility to mostly older people. TFGM subsidises such services before franchising and so will know what loadings they get and have allocated vehicles accordingly

Exactly! They have used previous commercial data and specified Mellors, which is what was used when it was commercial with Rosso

 

[CJ1]

GMCA have signed off funding for around 90 electric vehicles for tranche 1 and 2 so they will begin to turn up at some point. As mentioned in this thread work has to be done on some depots to install new or additional charging infrastructure.

In terms of the V1 and V2 fleet they will be replaced. TFGM were given cash from the government for a new fleet just before Covid hit and the money went unspent because of lockdown and it was then withdrawn by the DFT so the ambition for new buses has been around a while.

When the former vantage vehicles are replaced I imagine they will be moved to other routes by TFGM who own them.

I would guess (and it is a guess) that some of those 90 vehicles on order will include new free bus vehicles as well for Queens Road.

A quick word on the Stratas. On some routes like the 477 between Bury and Ramsbottom you simply do not need anything bigger. Even a small E200 would be too big. They go around all the little housing estates and provide mobility to mostly older people. TFGM subsidised such services before franchising and so will know what loadings they get and have allocated vehicles accordingly

Do you know what those 90 EVs are? Hopefully not BYD E400 EVs, we have enough of them! Hopefully some Streetdeck Electroliners!!

The former Vantage B5 Geminis have guide wheels, so I’m guessing they will take them off them and put them onto the new EVs. Wonder what routes they will put the B5 Geminis on then?

 

[Dallamlad]

Do you know what those 90 EVs are? Hopefully not BYD E400 EVs, we have enough of them! Hopefully some Streetdeck Electroliners!!

The former Vantage B5 Geminis have guide wheels, so I’m guessing they will take them off them and put them onto the new EVs. Wonder what routes they will put the B5 Geminis on then?

The orders haven’t been made public but as I understand it it’s operators who have put in the orders so I bet there will be a mix of vehicle types from different manufacturers. There won’t be any BYDs tho, that partnership has ended.

 

[CJ1]

The orders haven’t been made public but as I understand it it’s operators who have put in the orders so I bet there will be a mix of vehicle types from different manufacturers. There won’t be any BYDs tho, that partnership has ended.

Are they all EV orders or are they a mix with Euro 6/Hybrid vehicles? Do you know why the BYD partnership has ended with ADL, was it something to do with a contract?

 

[Dallamlad]

Are they all EV orders or are they a mix with Euro 6/Hybrid vehicles? Do you know why the BYD partnership has ended with ADL, was it something to do with a contract?

They’ll all be electric I imagine. Any new diesels coming in are funded by operators not the combined authority.

It seems the partnership between BYD and ADL has come to an end because ADL now have there own fully electric vehicle so want to focus on selling that.

To answer your other question about the former vantage fleet, they could end up literally anywhere on any route TFGM think they are suitable for so a case of wait and see. It all depends on when the replacements turn up.

 

[Goldfish62]

They’ll all be electric I imagine. Any new diesels coming in are funded by operators not the combined authority.

It seems the partnership between BYD and ADL has come to an end because ADL now have there own fully electric vehicle so want to focus on selling that.

To answer your other question about the former vantage fleet, they could end up literally anywhere on any route TFGM think they are suitable for so a case of wait and see. It all depends on when the replacements turn up.

As I understand it ADL was contractually bound to only supply BYD EVs for a set number of years. That came to an end this year and as you say clearly ADL wish to concentrate on their own product. While it was widely assumed the partnership would come to an end the abruptness of it appears to taken a lot of people by surprise, me included.

 

[CJ1]

They’ll all be electric I imagine. Any new diesels coming in are funded by operators not the combined authority.

It seems the partnership between BYD and ADL has come to an end because ADL now have there own fully electric vehicle so want to focus on selling that.

To answer your other question about the former vantage fleet, they could end up literally anywhere on any route TFGM think they are suitable for so a case of wait and see. It all depends on when the replacements turn up.

That’s a shame really. I quite liked the ‘city’ version of the E400. What do you think of ADLs own E400 EV? I’m not a big fan.

What is the possibility of second hand EVs being brought up to Manchester from somewhere like London? I think Go-Ahead in London have some LJ66 and LJ67 reg or even some of the newer 2020 versions BYD E200 EVs and some LF20 or LF70 reg BYD E400 EVs. Other operators can do the same too.

With the ex Vantage B5 Geminis, will they transfer to a different operator within Bee Network as they are owned by TFGM or will they help out on Go-Aheads routes?

 

[Leedsbusman]

With the ex Vantage B5 Geminis, will they transfer to a different operator within Bee Network as they are owned by TFGM or will they help out on Go-Aheads routes?

what makes you think the B5s are owned by TfGM? They were bought new by First.

 

[CJ1]

what makes you think the B5s are owned by TfGM? They were bought new by First.

I think someone said that they can move the B5s on any TFGM route, so I thought they are now owned by TFGM. Please prove me wrong, I’ve got no clue lol

 

[Goldfish62]

what makes you think the B5s are owned by TfGM? They were bought new by First.

So, are you saying that First are leasing them to GNW currently?

 

[dodecahedron67]

So, are you saying that First are leasing them to GNW currently?

They’re not owned by First anymore. Can’t remember if Vantage fleet went to TfGM then leased to GNW or direct to GNW

 

[Goldfish62]

They’re not owned by First anymore. Can’t remember if Vantage fleet went to TfGM then leased to GNW or direct to GNW

Thanks - that's what I assumed.

 

[Leedsbusman]

So, are you saying that First are leasing them to GNW currently?

No I was saying they were bought by First not TfGM and there is nothing published which shows TfGM bought them. I would assume they are now owned by Go North West like the other buses transferred from incumbents.

 

[CJ1]

Will Go-Aheads YX63 reg E200s get the full Yellow Bee Network livery eventually or are they on loan and due to go back to wherever they came from? If anyone knows, that will be helpful!

 

[Mollman]

What is the possibility of second hand EVs being brought up to Manchester from somewhere like London? I think Go-Ahead in London have some LJ66 and LJ67 reg or even some of the newer 2020 versions BYD E200 EVs and some LF20 or LF70 reg BYD E400 EVs. Other operators can do the same too.

I would say limited for within operator transfer given TfL's own deadline for going full zero-emission and thus would expect any EVs freed up by contract changes to move onto another TfL route to remove diesels or hybrids.

Leased vehicles are different and it maybe that at the end of the current lease, a Manchester operator takes them on but probably a slim possibility.

If the conversion of diesel Streetdecks to EV is successful then I could see GNW at least going down that road.

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

No I was saying they were bought by First not TfGM and there is nothing published which shows TfGM bought them. I would assume they are now owned by Go North West like the other buses transferred from incumbents.

Correct - 100% of the Bee Network fleet operated by Go North West is owned by Go North West. The fleet model in GM franchising is for the operator to own the fleet, even where vehicles have initially been ordered by TfGM eg the 50 x EVs at Bolton.

 

[Dallamlad]

Correct - 100% of the Bee Network fleet operated by Go North West is owned by Go North West. The fleet model in GM franchising is for the operator to own the fleet, even where vehicles have initially been ordered by TfGM eg the 50 x EVs at Bolton.

Well yes and no. The 50 EVs are “owned” by Go North West but only in the franchising arena. They couldn’t move those vehicles anywhere else despite “owning” them. It’s different to the other vehicles they operate that they own outright.

Stagecoach for example are able to move their brand new 24 plate Bee Network spec E400s anywhere they like because TFGM didn’t fund them. But they can’t move the 50 BYDs they have at Oldham because they were bought by TFGM despite “owning them” for the duration of the franchise.

 

[Goldfish62]

Stagecoach for example are able to move their brand new 24 plate Bee Network spec E400s anywhere they like because TFGM didn’t fund them.

But surely TfGM are paying the annual depreciation cost through the contract price. The depreciation on these will of course be higher than for older equivalent vehicles. If Stagecoach moves these out of GM and replaces with older vehicles that saves them money so surely money is then due back to TfGM through a contract price adjustment.

 

[MSO69]

Pretty sure TFGM own some if not all of the street decks at GNW as I’ve heard somewhere on a forum

 

[Leedsbusman]

But surely TfGM are paying the annual depreciation cost through the contract price. The depreciation on these will of course be higher than for older equivalent vehicles. If Stagecoach moves these out of GM and replaces with older vehicles that saves them money so surely money is then due back to TfGM through a contract price adjustment.

It depends on what the contract specifies. If it’s a bus no older than 7 years old on route 123 (for example) then that gives flexibility. If the contract is for specific vehicles locked to that contract for its duration the that doesn’t.

Pretty sure TFGM own some if not all of the street decks at GNW as I’ve heard somewhere on a forum

There is no evidence in any GMCA or TFGM paper about them buying the Streetdecks. The level of capital involved would require committee approval - as was done for the EVs.

 

[M60lad]

Out of interest, considering the schools are off for summer, is there a reason why the E400s at Heywood Depot aren't seeing use on other services? The only reason I can think of is that these are non Bee Network vehicles and are just standard Go Northwest vehicles just like some of the fleet at Rochdale's First Depot. They are just First Manchester vehicles and not First Manchester Bee Network; there seems to be a separate fleet for both.

 

[MSO69]

Out of interest, considering the schools are off for summer, is there a reason why the E400s at Heywood Depot aren't seeing use on other services? The only reason I can think of is that these are non Bee Network vehicles and are just standard Go Northwest vehicles just like some of the fleet at Rochdale's First Depot. They are just First Manchester vehicles and not First Manchester Bee Network; there seems to be a separate fleet for both.

The heywood vehicles for school services do sometimes go out in public services but this only seems to be the buses used on the 882 Tottington High School services which often go out on the 472 and 474 when not in use for schools

 

[CJ1]

Out of interest, considering the schools are off for summer, is there a reason why the E400s at Heywood Depot aren't seeing use on other services? The only reason I can think of is that these are non Bee Network vehicles and are just standard Go Northwest vehicles just like some of the fleet at Rochdale's First Depot. They are just First Manchester vehicles and not First Manchester Bee Network; there seems to be a separate fleet for both.

Good question! Just to add… will those E400s see the Bee Network livery, or will they stay in the Olympia/Go Ahead livery respectively. Also on Bus Times there is 2 First Manchester - one that says Bee Network one that doesn’t. Will those E400s and Streetlite DFs ever transfer to the Bee Network one and get the yellow livery?

 

[Andyh82]

Good question! Just to add… will those E400s see the Bee Network livery, or will they stay in the Olympia/Go Ahead livery respectively. Also on Bus Times there is 2 First Manchester - one that says Bee Network one that doesn’t. Will those E400s and Streetlite DFs ever transfer to the Bee Network one and get the yellow livery?

First Manchester are currently running some school services in the Tranche 3 area. These are the services and nominally the vehicles you see in the non Bee Network list. This arrangement will end at Christmas.

Other than that there is no requirement for school services in the Bee Network to be yellow, hence why all Vision Bus’s vehicles are still in their blue livery

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is no evidence in any GMCA or TFGM paper about them buying the Streetdecks. The level of capital involved would require committee approval - as was done for the EVs.

What happened was....

Rotala bought the Streetdecks. Most of the Rotala fleet was put into an asset pool, based on an agreed, fair market valuation of those assets. This Residual Value Mechanism (RVM) was created TfGM as a central part of franchising to derisk the process and level the playing field. Those assets were then allocated by TfGM to the incoming franchise operators who, as part of the award conditions, were obliged to acquire those vehicles allocated to it at the stated value as provided in the RVM.

So essentially, they agreed that 20 Streetdecks were worth, for instance, £4m at £200k apiece. That's in the valuation in the RVM, and that a tranche lot had the 20 Streetdecks allocated to it. Go North West and everyone else would have (or should have) put the £4m valuation into their overall costings with GNW paying Rotala on transfer - I don't believe that there was any capital spend or financing from TfGM unless someone can advise.

 

[Leedsbusman]

What happened was....

Rotala bought the Streetdecks. Most of the Rotala fleet was put into an asset pool, based on an agreed, fair market valuation of those assets. This Residual Value Mechanism (RVM) was created TfGM as a central part of franchising to derisk the process and level the playing field. Those assets were then allocated by TfGM to the incoming franchise operators who, as part of the award conditions, were obliged to acquire those vehicles allocated to it at the stated value as provided in the RVM.

So essentially, they agreed that 20 Streetdecks were worth, for instance, £4m at £200k apiece. That's in the valuation in the RVM, and that a tranche lot had the 20 Streetdecks allocated to it. Go North West and everyone else would have (or should have) put the £4m valuation into their overall costings with GNW paying Rotala on transfer - I don't believe that there was any capital spend or financing from TfGM unless someone can advise.

Correct. TfGM merely brokered the sale between the two operators. Same will happen at the end of the franchise contract.