TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[py_megapixel]

Honestly don’t know why but they were never intended to stay in Manchester. They appear on internal fleet cards as loan vehicles.
Sad really as they are really nice vehicles but clearly TFGM would prefer old tired B9s and Scanias.

I highly, highly doubt TFGM would prefer that, given their efforts to improve the image of bus travel. But they don't exactly have the ability to tell Stagecoach what to do with their own vehicles, so as long as the fleet is sufficient to deliver the service specified, they presumably just have to put up with whatever daft fleet decisions Stagecoach makes.

However old and tired they are, I think I'd still rather have the B9s and Scanias over the E400s of similar vintage which feel even more knackered, particularly inside. There are a few on Bee Network and they also make up most of the fleet on Stagecoach's remaining commercial routes. (I'm actually rather glad Stagecoach lost most of south Manchester - if they'd won it, we'd almost certainly been plagued with the things for a while longer in a marginally tarted-up form, whereas with Metroline coming in, they've had to place a large order for new buses at the outset)

 

[CJ1]

Yellow 11819-11822 are now operating from Ashton Depot instead of Oldham replacing some of the 23 & 73 plate MMCs that have moved to their new homes. A lot more of this to come.

Where have the 23 and 73 plate MMCs gone? Very strange movements from Stagecoach, can’t TFGM have a say in the movements and types of vehicle?!?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2024 ==

Nope, they will leave Oldham at some point

Do you know where they will go. I guess what ever depot they move to they will get the yellow livery there.

 

[gka472l]

Where have the 23 and 73 plate MMCs gone? Very strange movements from Stagecoach, can’t TFGM have a say in the movements and types of vehicle?!?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2024 ==


Do you know where they will go. I guess what ever depot they move to they will get the yellow livery there.

11717-11722 have transferred to Stagecoach North East today, and 11743-11746 have also left, thought to be to Stagecoach East Midlands.....

 

[jimbob185]

11717-11722 have transferred to Stagecoach North East today, and 11743-11746 have also left, thought to be to Stagecoach East Midlands.....

Yes 11743-11746 have gone to Stagecoach East Midlands Skegness depot

 

[mayneway]

What is the point of them trying to get those ancient Gemini's up to a good standard. They are outdated and very knackered. Are they waiting for the BZLs then they will go? I'm sure some First subsidiary in Yorkshire or GNE will happily have them. Although, are they planned to get the full yellow Bee Network livery?

If the Gemini's are going later this year I'm guessing the Scania's will go too, with the BZLs coming in. What will Stagecoach put on the 1 and 2 then (the free routes)?

The Geminis will be here well into 2025. TFGM will want a year out of them at least.

As for the freebus, it’s down to TFGM to find suitable replacement vehicles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Queens Road Solos 48101/2/3 have today transferred to South wales. 48104 went to Oldham last week.

For the first time in a long time the depot is technically Optare free - despite several free bus Versas still being on site.

 

[xitz2012@gmail]

The Gemini’s will be here well into 2025. TFGM will want a year out of them at least.

As for the freebus, it’s down to TFGM to find suitable replacement vehicles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Queens Road Solos 48101/2/3 have today transferred to South wales. 48104 went to Oldham last week.

For the first time in a long time the depot is technically Optare free - despite several free bus Versa’s still being on site.

Looks like we will be having old B9s on Queens Road routes for quite a while longer then! Hopefully they all get fixed up because a fair few are extremely sluggish now. At the rate it's going there'll be hardly any new(ish) deckers left at Queens Road (Minus the SN17s) at all!

 

[mayneway]

Looks like we will be having old B9s on Queens Road routes for quite a while longer then! Hopefully they all get fixed up because a fair few are extremely sluggish now. At the rate it's going there'll be hardly any new(ish) deckers left at Queens Road (Minus the SN17s) at all!

The B9s are at Queens Road until November when the majority of the fleet will be replaced. It’s expected they will then move onto another depot in Manchester - we were told they would go to Stockport but who knows?

 

[xitz2012@gmail]

The B9’s are at queens road until November when the majority of the fleet will be replaced. It’s expected they will then move onto another depot in machester - we were told they would go to Stockport but who knows.

That's something then! Hopeefully we'll get something good in return, preferably more MMCs.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding Oldham's fleet what will replace the 10600 batch once they go? Also what's due to replace the B9s at Queens Road once they go to Stockport?

 

[Class 466]

Regarding Oldham's fleet what will replace the 10600 batch once they go? Also what's due to replace the B9s at Queens Road once they go to Stockport?

Believe it’s pending further depot electrification works to enable more EVs to go there in terms of Oldham. Would assume if the B9s went to Stockport - Enviros would go the other way. Also Middleton Electrification to consider which will free up around 30 vehicles for cascade or disposal.

 

[mayneway]

Believe it’s pending further depot electrification works to enable more EVs to go there in terms of Oldham. Would assume if the B9s went to Stockport - Enviros would go the other way. Also Middleton Electrification to consider which will free up around 30 vehicles for cascade or disposal.

Spot on.
B9’s to Stockport, Stockport’s enviros to Queens road.

 

[CJ1]

The Geminis will be here well into 2025. TFGM will want a year out of them at least.

As for the freebus, it’s down to TFGM to find suitable replacement vehicles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Queens Road Solos 48101/2/3 have today transferred to South wales. 48104 went to Oldham last week.

For the first time in a long time the depot is technically Optare free - despite several free bus Versas still being on site.

All the way up until 2025!! Oh dear! Are all the Solos going to be transferred to other Stagecoach depots around the country like South Wales.

 

[geoffk]

I highly, highly doubt TFGM would prefer that, given their efforts to improve the image of bus travel. But they don't exactly have the ability to tell Stagecoach what to do with their own vehicles, so as long as the fleet is sufficient to deliver the service specified, they presumably just have to put up with whatever daft fleet decisions Stagecoach makes.

Doesn't TfGM specify what vehicles are required in terms of maximum age as well as accessibility, emissions etc. standards?

 

[xitz2012@gmail]

Spot on.
B9’s to Stockport, Stockport’s enviros to Queens road.

We must be getting the other half of thr SK20 batch then alongside the rest of the SN17s still there

 

[mayneway]

Doesn't TfGM specify what vehicles are required in terms of maximum age as well as accessibility, emissions etc. standards?

Yes, but they also specify vehicle allocation, type, and numbers at each depot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I highly, highly doubt TFGM would prefer that, given their efforts to improve the image of bus travel. But they don't exactly have the ability to tell Stagecoach what to do with their own vehicles, so as long as the fleet is sufficient to deliver the service specified, they presumably just have to put up with whatever daft fleet decisions Stagecoach makes.

However old and tired they are, I think I'd still rather have the B9s and Scanias over the E400s of similar vintage which feel even more knackered, particularly inside. There are a few on Bee Network and they also make up most of the fleet on Stagecoach's remaining commercial routes. (I'm actually rather glad Stagecoach lost most of south Manchester - if they'd won it, we'd almost certainly been plagued with the things for a while longer in a marginally tarted-up form, whereas with Metroline coming in, they've had to place a large order for new buses at the outset)

You’re completely wrong.
TFGM controls what vehicles are used at which TFGM owned depot.
They have specified that now the scania’s and B9’s are ‘supposedly’ up to a decent standard the insurance fleet of 24 plates is no longer needed.

Stagecoach has the ability to move them to other commercial depots in Manchester but has chosen to move them out.
Same with the Solo’s. TFGM has deemed them no longer required at queens road, so has requested one goes to Oldham but the rest are not required so have been moved on.

 

[Goldfish62]

I highly, highly doubt TFGM would prefer that, given their efforts to improve the image of bus travel. But they don't exactly have the ability to tell Stagecoach what to do with their own vehicles, so as long as the fleet is sufficient to deliver the service specified, they presumably just have to put up with whatever daft fleet decisions Stagecoach makes.

That's certainly not how it works in London. Even though operators own their vehicles (apart from the Borismasters) vehicles are contractually bound by route(s) and operators cannot just transfer around the fleet or out of London without TfL's agreement.

 

[CJ1]

Same with the Solo’s. TFGM has deemed them no longer required at queens road, so has requested one goes to Oldham but the rest are not required so have been moved on.

Why are they no longer required. Where they interim vehicles while they wait for something more suitable? Will all the Solos eventually move to South Wales or other depots around the country?

 

[geoffk]

Lots of new E400 elecs arriving at Bolton now, all huddled together ready for the big change over..!

Note: picture shows the new E400 buses along with the associated infrastructure to charge them...

With all these new buses arriving, there will be the long term problem that a large fleet of vehicles will all need to be replaced at about the same time, repeating the "boom and bust" aspect of vehicle production, as experienced in the rail industry.

 

[Leedsbusman]

That's certainly not how it works in London. Even though operators own their vehicles (apart from the Borismasters) vehicles are contractually bound by route(s) and operators cannot just transfer around the fleet or out of London without TfL's agreement.

But London has a route tendering system not a depot based one. There are three main vehicle types in GM Franchising:
1) New Electric bus fleet owned by TfGM
2) Operator Supplied Fleet owned by the operators, this includes some vehicles which outgoing operators have put into a residual value mechanism for the incoming operator to buy
3) A contingency fleet to deal with delivery delays. Some of these are TfGM owned (the ex Oxford double deckers for example), others operator owned (eg First's interim fleet at Rochdale, Stagecoach's Solos pending the arrival of the Stratas).

 

[mangad]

With all these new buses arriving, there will be the long term problem that a large fleet of vehicles will all need to be replaced at about the same time, repeating the "boom and bust" aspect of vehicle production, as experienced in the rail industry.

Well we're talking new buses basically in one county, whereas railway companies cover far greater areas. Railways are also geographically restricted, whilst buses get everywhere. Trains also last longer than buses. And it's not like they're replacing every bus in Greater Manchester at once. Other counties are going down the franchising model and they'll have their own timescales for bringing on new vehicles that probably won't be in sync with fleet renewals in Greater Manchester.

There's government data on bus vehicles. If we look at it, it says as of March 2023 there were 30,154 buses in the UK, of which 8,788 buses were in London. So 29% of vehicles are in the capital. Can't find any figures for Greater Manchester, but it's going to be a lot less than that. My feeling is it would take a lot for a major boom/bust scenario with buses.

 

[CJ1]

3) A contingency fleet to deal with delivery delays. Some of these are TfGM owned (the ex Oxford double deckers for example), others operator owned (eg First's interim fleet at Rochdale, Stagecoach's Solos pending the arrival of the Stratas).

Why are Stagecoach getting Strata's? They are extremely small, wouldn't E200 MMCs be more suitable?? Do they have any of them on order as they only have 3 or 4? Which vehicles of First's are 'interim' have they got any orders for new vehicles?

 

[Goldfish62]

But London has a route tendering system not a depot based one. There are three main vehicle types in GM Franchising:
1) New Electric bus fleet owned by TfGM
2) Operator Supplied Fleet owned by the operators, this includes some vehicles which outgoing operators have put into a residual value mechanism for the incoming operator to buy
3) A contingency fleet to deal with delivery delays. Some of these are TfGM owned (the ex Oxford double deckers for example), others operator owned (eg First's interim fleet at Rochdale, Stagecoach's Solos pending the arrival of the Stratas).

Yes, I know all that, but the same principles apply whether it's route- or depot-based contracts. I was specifically responding to the comment that TfGM have no say over the operator-owned vehicles and that these can be moved out of GM without permission. Assuming this is true bids therefore did not have to specify what vehicles (type, capacity, age, emissions spec) would be used and TfGM pays the same contract price regardless of whether an operator part way through the contract ships newer vehicles out and replaces them with older (ie, cheaper) buses. Seems an odd way of doing things as it means that TfGM has no control over operator-owned vehicle age apart from the 15 year cut-off, or emissions spec as long as vehicles are minimum Euro VI diesel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I think I heard somewhere that some Ex First London E200s that are now with Metroline London are coming to Manchester. I think it’s the ones with YX09,59 and 61 reg’s.

They're really scruffy. They'll need a lot of cosmetic work to make them look respectable.

 

[Andyh82]

Why are Stagecoach getting Strata's? They are extremely small, wouldn't E200 MMCs be more suitable?? Do they have any of them on order as they only have 3 or 4? Which vehicles of First's are 'interim' have they got any orders for new vehicles?

First did have orders for new vehicles and they’ve mostly all now entered service. Their interim vehicles have mostly now left the fleet

 

[CJ1]

First did have orders for new vehicles and they’ve mostly all now entered service. Their interim vehicles have mostly now left the fleet

Have they got anymore pending orders as they have only got 50 odd vehicles?

 

[Steve440]

Why are Stagecoach getting Strata's? They are extremely small, wouldn't E200 MMCs be more suitable?? Do they have any of them on order as they only have 3 or 4? Which vehicles of First's are 'interim' have they got any orders for new vehicles?

Presumably Stagecoach, like First, are getting Stratas because that's what TfGM have requested. Shame really because I have travelled on some of Transdev's and they are abominable - very hard suspension and rough riding.

 

[CJ1]

Presumably Stagecoach, like First, are getting Stratas because that's what TfGM have requested. Shame really because I have travelled on some of Transdev's and they are abominable - very hard suspension and rough riding.

I agree, Arriva Manchester have some and they operate them on the 281, 282 etc. I’m not the biggest fan of them either, I’d rather they get some more E200 MMCs. Don’t know what TFGM are thinking really, as they are very small.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Presumably Stagecoach, like First, are getting Stratas because that's what TfGM have requested. Shame really because I have travelled on some of Transdev's and they are abominable - very hard suspension and rough riding.

I agree, Arriva Manchester have some and they operate them on the 281, 282 etc. I’m not the biggest fan of them either, I’d rather they get some more E200 MMCs. Don’t know what TFGM are thinking really, as they are very small.

Rode on some when Diamond had some based at Eccles (I think those ones have gone back to Preston now), I find them to be quite agile and fast, which makes sense, they're more of a van than a bus.
Their size probably doesn't matter on most routes outside of the school peaks (depending on route).
20 seats or so is probably more than enough for 90% of journeys.

 

[CJ1]

Rode on some when Diamond had some based at Eccles (I think those ones have gone back to Preston now), I find them to be quite agile and fast, which makes sense, they're more of a van than a bus.
Their size probably doesn't matter on most routes outside of the school peaks (depending on route).
20 seats or so is probably more than enough for 90% of journeys.

Yeah true, most time I see a E200 pretty much empty on a ‘small’ route although it does depend on the time of day. Have First or Stagecoach got any plans for ordering any other vehicles, or even Go-Ahead or Diamond? (If anyone knows)

 

[Andyh82]

Have they got anymore pending orders as they have only got 50 odd vehicles?

They only have 2 small franchises and a few schools

 

[CJ1]

They only have 2 small franchises and a few schools

So is that it then. No more deliveries? Are all the ‘school buses’ for example the SM13 reg Streetlites not going to be repainted into the yellow livery as they are used on school routes