Temporary Timetable 13th Dec - 7th Jan

[Bletchleyite]

attendance still seems dire.

1. There's a lot of "bugs going round" at the moment, not just the obvious one, and you don't want people to come in and give them to everybody.
2. WFH doesn't necessarily mean not productive.

 

[Benjwri]

The flip side of that coin is that if rail is as irrelevant as some people claim, how can the sector be holding the post-Covid recovery back?

Maybe it isn’t irrelevant yet, but it’s going the right way. The majority of people and companies do not care whose fault it is the railway doesn’t work, they just know it’s becoming unreliable. Rail strikes are just more likely to make working from home acceptable and lower that attendance you mention.

It’s undeniable that such a timetable talked about here would likely destroy the remaining confidence in the rail industry. To mention just one, the thousands of students who use it to get home and back over Christmas. We’re talking about them finding out they have to get driven just weeks, if that, in advance. You are teaching entire generations distrust in the industry.

 

[zwk500]

Maybe it isn’t irrelevant yet, but it’s going the right way. The majority of people and companies do not care whose fault it is the railway doesn’t work, they just know it’s becoming unreliable. Rail strikes are just more likely to make working from home acceptable and lower that attendance you mention.

This is a very good point - a large body of people just need the trains to work.

It’s undeniable that such a timetable talked about here would likely destroy the remaining confidence in the rail industry. To mention just one, the thousands of students who use it to get home and back over Christmas. We’re talking about them finding out they have to get driven just weeks, if that, in advance. You are teaching entire generations distrust in the industry.

It varies a bit depending on place, but students were already largely using megabus when I was at uni, as they have little money but lots of time. The biggest damage with the proposed timetable will be to hospitality. I agree with your point about teaching generations not to rely on the trains though.

 

[mike57]

I agree with your point about teaching generations not to rely on the trains though.

Back to my earlier point, there may not be anything left to argue over once the dust settles on the various disputes.

 

[Benjwri]

This is a very good point - a large body of people just need the trains to work.

Exactly, many don’t even bother to research why it is, but even those that do care why have little choice, they just know it isn’t something they can rely on.

It varies a bit depending on place, but students were already largely using megabus when I was at uni, as they have little money but lots of time.

At least at the uni I go to, using National Express or Megabus is pretty much unheard of. Almost everyone uses the train. Having just looked at the fare for me to get home, it would cost 2x more than the train fare just to take the bus, and I would have to get a 30 minute train at either end to get to the nearest stop. Might be different over longer distances, but seems trains are more economical over shortish distances

 

[Goldfish62]

At least at the uni I go to, using National Express or Megabus is pretty much unheard of. Almost everyone uses the train. Having just looked at the fare for me to get home, it would cost 2x more than the train fare just to take the bus, and I would have to get a 30 minute train at either end to get to the nearest stop. Might be different over longer distances, but seems trains are more economical over shortish distances

There often seems to be a mistaken assumption that NX and Megabus go from virtually everywhere to everywhere. They don't by any means. My home town in the South East with a population of over 100k has neither anywhere near. Rail is the only alternative to the car for anything but the most local journeys.

 

[DelW]

No trains after 18.00 throughout the Christmas period (which is what is being proposed here) would cause great damage to the evening hospitality industry just as it is trying to recover during the first restriction free Christmas for two years. People are growing increasingly frustrated with the rail industry holding the post Covid recovery back.

Many people have had two Christmases in a row ruined by travel restrictions caused by then-new covid variants. If they have a third successive Christmas ruined by rail workers, public sympathy may evaporate rapidly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In other words, if DaFT want to close ticket offices they can.

Whereas if the railway operates nothing over the Christmas shopping and party season, the public buy-in will be lost entirely

I agree about ticket offices; my point was that the RMT negotiators at the time were realistic about this, rather than trying to be King Canute.

For any strike action "public buy in" is of little or no relevance. The employer doesn't care, the union doesn't care. After all, a strike action that doesn't inconvenience anyone is a failed strike action.

It takes two to tango, and it's interesting how the ire always goes towards the employee whose sole negotiating lever is withdrawal of labour. If a strike happens the employer is equally culpable IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a strike happens the employer is equally culpable IMO.

Yes and no. See Royal Mail for an example - it cannot *not* modernise, because its main income stream is dying. The postal service will become just another courier and that can't be done without any collateral damage.

See also Beeching when cars were the future.

 

[MikeWM]

A much reduced timetable in the run up to Christmas and over the Christmas season is going to alienate large numbers of people, and it could end up being the 'straw that broke the camels back'. We could reach a situation very quickly from which there is no recovery.

I am not trying to say one side or the other is right, just that when the dispute is over there may not be much left to argue over.

That sums up how I feel right now. This has already been an appallingly poor year for passengers on the railways, and ruining people's plans for Christmas - especially after the last two years' disruption to Christmas plans for other reasons - is going to frustrate and anger a large number of people, and may well be the last straw for many. Including myself.

 

[zwk500]

Yes and no. See Royal Mail for an example - it cannot *not* modernise, because its main income stream is dying. The postal service will become just another courier and that can't be done without any collateral damage.

See also Beeching when cars were the future.

On the other hand, Paris metro managed to move entire lines to driverless cars without strike action. If the FRENCH can manage that, then there really isn't a reason for this dispute to continue other than ideological one-upmanship. The RMT have shown they're willing to accept deals well below inflation and modernisations, so don't go accusing the union of being intractable either.

Could Paris Metro inspire driverless Tube trains?

Tom Edwards has been on the Paris Metro to check out its automated Ligne 1 trains and asks if it will ever happen on London's Tube network.

www.bbc.com

11 January 2013
The operators RATP upgraded the line with full negotiation with the unions from as far back as 2003 when the idea first germinated. The pay-off for the unions was drivers were redeployed onto another line and were promoted.
There were no redundancies.

 

[bramling]

1. There's a lot of "bugs going round" at the moment, not just the obvious one, and you don't want people to come in and give them to everybody.

There may be bugs going round now, however attendance has been poor all year at my place. If this is a yardstick for elsewhere then it isn’t a good shout. And when I say poor, I mean worst I’ve ever known by a long way.

Many people have had two Christmases in a row ruined by travel restrictions caused by then-new covid variants. If they have a third successive Christmas ruined by rail workers, public sympathy may evaporate rapidly.

I don’t think rail disruption is going to “ruin” Christmas. It will be an irritant for sure. My feeling in any case is that people are more blaming the government for most issues at the moment - if it was just rail then that might be different. I write this not having had any post deliveries all this week…

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, Paris metro managed to move entire lines to driverless cars without strike action.

It seems Glasgow is also managing this. Though I think they'll end up employing on board security staff of some kind.

 

[Tetchytyke]

See Royal Mail for an example - it cannot *not* modernise, because its main income stream is dying. The postal service will become just another courier

Royal Mail paid a £400m dividend out last year, and are now expecting their staff to do more work for less money. Funny how "modernisation" works.

£400m is a lot of "modernisation".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Royal Mail paid a £400m dividend out last year. £400m is a lot of "modernisation".

That does mean they could pay staff a bit better. But there are still going to need to be big changes to roles. Daily postal rounds are just not going to be needed any more.

 

[Benjwri]

There often seems to be a mistaken assumption that NX and Megabus go from virtually everywhere to everywhere. They don't by any means. My home town in the South East with a population of over 100k has neither anywhere near. Rail is the only alternative to the car for anything but the most local journeys.

Exactly, Unless you live in certain cities, it's pretty much useless, the only option East from Bath stops at Heathrow, so for me to get home near Oxford I would have to change there, then go back on myself to Oxford, followed by a train journey. Plus the change in Oxford means the the fare is 4x the Super Off Peak rail fare.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I said it on the other thread, and I'll say it here.

This government is a pub covers band version of Thatcherism and they want their Scargill moment.

 

[zwk500]

It seems Glasgow is also managing this. Though I think they'll end up employing on board security staff of some kind.

It wasn't a discussion about driverless trains, just an illustration that strikes aren't an inevitable consequence of reform if handled properly. The RMT have reacted badly to management handling this programme atrociously.

 

[bramling]

I said it on the other thread, and I'll say it here.

This government is a pub covers band version of Thatcherism and they want their Scargill moment.

Not disagreeing, however we don’t actually know much about this government. Sure Johnson made his views on unions clear, as did Truss in her last PMQs. We don’t really know much about Sunak - indeed never before have we had a PM who is such an unknown quantity, and who has received such little scrutiny.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But there are still going to need to be big changes to roles

Perhaps, but doling out £400m in dividends then expecting staff to make £400m of "efficiency savings" (work harder, earn less) is an interesting way of negotiating sensible reform.

And it's the same deal on the railway. Andrew Haines gave himself an 8.1% pay rise to £560,000, but "there's no money" for anyone else. No wonder staff feel they're having the mickey taken out of them.

 

[stevetay3]

That does mean they could pay staff a bit better. But there are still going to need to be big changes to roles. Daily postal rounds are just not going to be needed any more.

Why not

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. I still get plenty of official post through the mail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not

Because letter post is dying. The important services now are the courier ones (small and medium parcels) and guaranteed letter post for important documents (Special Delivery). You don't need the same structure to deliver that as when significant amounts of non-junk letter post were being delivered daily. For regular letter post, two or three deliveries per week would probably suffice now, which potentially means you can significantly reduce the number of posties doing traditional rounds.

I'm pretty confident that the reason RM was sold off wasn't for a profit (unlike most other privatisations) but rather because the Government knew major reform was needed and didn't want the unrest it would cause "on their books", as it were - see also TOCs.

 

[zwk500]

Why not

Indeed. I still get plenty of official post through the mail.

Because the majority of official business is now conducted online. The main reason for physical deliveries now is online shopping, which customers now demand to have flexible scheduling and so is much more suited to a Parcelforce or DHL type service.
If people cannot/do not wish to use online services then provision should be made for official post to be sent via the same delivery services, but there's no reason to have a postie doing the rounds every day any more.

 

[yorksrob]

Because the majority of official business is now conducted online. The main reason for physical deliveries now is online shopping, which customers now demand to have flexible scheduling and so is much more suited to a Parcelforce or DHL type service.
If people cannot/do not wish to use online services then provision should be made for official post to be sent via the same delivery services, but there's no reason to have a postie doing the rounds every day any more.

On the contrary, I was under the impression that a lot of these on line businesses use the traditional postie to complete the final delivery. Infact, I get railway magazines delivered in this way.

 

[bramling]

Because letter post is dying. The important services now are the courier ones (small and medium parcels) and guaranteed letter post for important documents (Special Delivery). You don't need the same structure to deliver that as when significant amounts of non-junk letter post were being delivered daily. For regular letter post, two or three deliveries per week would probably suffice now.

Round here that’s what we’ve had for the last couple of months.

However I don’t think we’re quite at the point where everything is geared up for this. For example, I’m awaiting a CPZ parking permit to replace one which a builder managed to lose, which should have arrived at the beginning of the week, and so far hasn’t. To get rid of daily postal deliveries that sort of thing needs to be set up so it can be printed at home, for example.

 

[stevetay3]

Just seams crazy that long stretches of line are to be closed due to one signal box being shut down, just shows how well managed the railway is at at the moment. I love travelling by train but have had to go back to the car due to health issues, I can not risk getting stranded somewhere far from home at the moment, I only now make local journeys now by train if there will be an affordable alternative when the train does not turn up

 

[bramling]

On the contrary, I was under the impression that a lot of these on line businesses use the traditional postie to complete the final delivery. Infact, I get railway magazines delivered in this way.

PDFs will no doubt be the future on that one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However I don’t think we’re quite at the point where everything is geared up for this. For example, I’m awaiting a CPZ parking permit to replace one which a builder managed to lose, which should have arrived at the beginning of the week, and so far hasn’t. To get rid of daily postal deliveries that sort of thing needs to be set up so it can be printed at home, for example.

A physical parking permit? How quaint. Increasingly you just register the car's registration number against the permit online, or if you don't do online by telephone.

 

[yorksrob]

PDFs will no doubt be the future on that one.

Oh please, no !