Temporary Timetable 13th Dec - 7th Jan

[Huntergreed]

That’ll definitely be unpopular - the strike announcement had a bad enough impact, but I imagine this will go down much worse than that.

That said, it may also increase the urgency for the negotiations to reach their conclusion, one can only hope!

Appreciate the advance warning, sadly I feel I’m no longer able to commit to any event that involves the use of rail travel (and I’m sure I’m not alone!)

 

[350401]

If Network Rail / the Unions are seriously thinking of shutting down the railways for nearly an entire month, they better give people some serious notice. People can work around strike days, but not a month long block. How are people meant to get home to see loved ones? If both parties want people to learn to live without the railways, this is the way to do it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

That’ll definitely be unpopular - the strike announcement had a bad enough impact, but I imagine this will go down much worse than that.

That said, it may also increase the urgency for the negotiations to reach their conclusion, one can only hope!

Appreciate the advance warning, sadly I feel I’m no longer able to commit to any event that involves the use of rail travel (and I’m sure I’m not alone!)

Leaving whole lines without any service for over a month and the remaining lines with a scant service will certainly stir things up a bit. I wouldn't like to call where the mud will be thrown in terms of blame but there will be lots of it. A lesser service than during the severest of Corona lockdowns.

 

[endofthetunnel]

One obvious point of an overtime ban is that a fully staffed signal box has no need for overtime, as the roster is fully covered with ‘normal’ shifts. Relief signallers then exist to cover any sickness or holiday (plus the odd safety brief day etc) and overtime would only ever be needed to fill any little gaps remaining.

Currently there are many areas woefully understaffed and most rely on overtime to keep the railway moving on a daily basis, so this OT ban will hit the railway hard if a temporary timetable isn’t considered

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, when they talk about "severely limited services" it usually seems to translate as "sod all" for most lines around here.

 

[Dave91131]

Sadly I think the railway is in a lose lose situation with this.

On the one hand, passengers need certainty with regard to the services that will run, and if this "temporary timetable" across the network will achieve that then good.

On the other hand, reducing the network to essentially a part time bit part operation will cause an astronomical number of passengers to think "sod this, I'll make my way by other means".

If a reduced timetable, providing certainty over what services will run, during normal operating hours would be possible then I think that would be the least worst option - but it seems it isn't an option at all.

 

[Bald Rick]

One obvious point of an overtime ban is that a fully staffed signal box has no need for overtime, as the roster is fully covered with ‘normal’ shifts.

There’s plenty of ‘boxes (or groups thereof) that are fully staffed (or nearly so) that require rafts of overtime. It just takes a period of high leave demand (such as Christmas) coincident with a spate of illness, and no sensible amount of spare / relief can cover it.

 

[Kite159]

.

If Network Rail / the Unions are seriously thinking of shutting down the railways for nearly an entire month, they better give people some serious notice. People can work around strike days, but not a month long block. How are people meant to get home to see loved ones? If both parties want people to learn to live without the railways, this is the way to do it.

Or for some, how they will be able to get to work if they don't drive if the line they use is one which has no service.

 

[DaveHarries]

My colleagues and I at work rely on the trains day in and day out. Given the persistence of the strikes I could almost give a 100% guarantee that if the leader of the RMT arrived where I work looking for support for these strikes then my colleagues, at least one of whom is a former railway employee, and I would give him a reception that would be very frosty indeed.

It is interesting that the RMT vs. ScotRail dispute has been sorted and the length of time that the dispute south of the border has been going on makes me start to wonder what the true aim of the dispute in England really is: if the RMT keep this up then there may not be enough in the profits of NR and TOCs to give them a pay rise!

Dave

 

[JonathanH]

Given the persistence of the strikes I could almost give a 100% guarantee that if the leader of the RMT arrived where I work looking for support for these strikes then my colleagues, at least one of whom is a former railway employee, and I would give him a reception that would be very frosty indeed.

That is somewhat unreasonable. Is the union in the wrong here? The job of a union leader is certainly not to roll over regardless of what 'nasties' an employer is proposing.

There are distinctly nasty proposals that the union and its members are objecting to.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are distinctly nasty proposals that the union and its members are objecting to.

What’s nasty?

 

[zwk500]

My colleagues and I at work rely on the trains day in and day out. Given the persistence of the strikes I could almost give a 100% guarantee that if the leader of the RMT arrived where I work looking for support for these strikes then my colleagues, at least one of whom is a former railway employee, and I would give him a reception that would be very frosty indeed.

What reception would the Secretary of State for Transport or Andrew Haines recieve?

 

[DaveHarries]

What’s nasty?

I know that, aside from pay, one thing that the RMT is objecting to is loss of ticket offices. When I get the train into work, however, the number of people who produce their phones with e-tickets on when the ticket inspector comes along is quite high even though tickets can be issued on the train in question.

I think that one part of that is down to the fact that tickets can be had for less and the ticket offices at stations don't always give you the lowest fare. One friend of mine got stuffed for £64.30 to get to Walsall not that long ago by the station ticket office at Bristol TM (why didn't they give him a cheaper fare automatically, you might wonder? The non-TOC app I use would have saved him 38.6%) and I remember going to an event at the NEC a few years back and was told that I could have a return to Birmingham International for £80. I did the maths and split the trip into two stages each way which saved me a decent sum. Employer now uses one of those apps which knocks money off the fares and then sends the e-ticket to the employee (which is OK - see NRCoC 5.1.1) and I also have the same app as my employer. For example:

Weymouth - Reading O/Pk Rtn, leaving Weymouth @ 12:03
TOC app: £57.80
Non-TOC app: £45.10 (saving a touch under 22%)

The ticket offices should be obliged to give the lowest possible fare for a customer's journey as a rule without being asked.

I think the other things behind the strike include a gripe at plans to get rid of guards on trains. IIRC there was a statement from Network Rail a while back: if I can find it I will link to it here.

Dave

 

[Jonny]

Just hearing that Network Rail are proposing to implement a Temporary Timetable from the 13th December - 7th January. A 12 hour timetable 0600 - 1800 is proposed and some routes will be without services at all.

This is due to the impact of the strikes and the resultant disruption.

Due to the reliance on contingent signallers and a ban on Rest Day Working and Overtime some routes won’t open. For instance Tyseley depot won’t be available because the Snow Hill panel of the WMCC won’t be open. Chiltern are only operating Marylebone to Banbury. Hereford is one of the locations that will be without trains this period.

Is the overtime ban only coming in now? Surely if they are going on strike then they should not be doing overtime.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2022 ==

I know that, aside from pay, one thing that the RMT is objecting to is loss of ticket offices. When I get the train into work, however, the number of people who produce their phones with e-tickets on when the ticket inspector comes along.

I think that one part of that is down to the fact that tickets can be had for less and the ticket offices at stations don't always give you the lowest fare. I remember going to an event at the NEC a few years back and was told that I could have a return to Birmingham International for £80. I did the maths and split the trip into two stages each way which saved me a decent sum. Employer now uses one of those apps which knocks money off the fares. For example:

Weymouth - Reading O/Pk Rtn, leaving Weymouth @ 12:03
GWR app: £57.80
Other Phone app (which I won't mention here in case it is taken as advertising): £45.10

Dave

Why is that being linked to Ntwork rail staff?

 

[skyhigh]

It is interesting that the RMT vs. ScotRail dispute has been sorted and the length of time that the dispute south of the border has been going on makes me start to wonder what the true aim of the dispute in England really is: if the RMT keep this up then there may not be enough in the profits of NR and TOCs to give them a pay rise!

All the indications are that it's not the RMT who are applying the brakes in England.

 

[Bald Rick]

I know that, aside from pay, one thing that the RMT is objecting to is loss of ticket offices.

The RMT have been agreeing to (or at the very least, accepting) the closure of ticket offices for some time, and they know that more of the same is inevitable. They will make a fuss about it, but they accept it is going to happen. And I wouldn’t call that ‘nasty’ (not that you did!)

Not that that has anything to do with signallers being on strike though. That’s the bit I don’t understand.

 

[mike57]

My worry with this is where will it leave the railways once the dust settles and some sort of resolution is found:

• A government which I suspect in spite words is anti railway
• On going issues with Avanti and TPE amongst others and a complete failure of the franchise system.
• A black hole in public finances generally
• High potential for external events to derail any fragile economic recovery longer term

As with any dispute there are three sides, the employers arguements (DfT, ToCs), the employee side (RMT) and the truth, which is probably somewhere in the middle. The danger I think is that recovery in passenger numbers will be reversed, possibly seriously and long term, and this will result in the situation where the subsidy per passenger mile (or what ever metric you decide to use) will have increased to the point where those in power at the time (probably not the current government) will not be able to justify the expediture and the plug will be pulled on a lot of the less busy routes. A Beeching 2. Whoever wins the next election is going to inherit an economic situation which will be pretty dire and will not give room for manoeuvre.

A much reduced timetable in the run up to Christmas and over the Christmas season is going to alienate large numbers of people, and it could end up being the 'straw that broke the camels back'. We could reach a situation very quickly from which there is no recovery.

I am not trying to say one side or the other is right, just that when the dispute is over there may not be much left to argue over.

To be honest if I was involved the rail industry in the UK in any way, supplier, worker, investor I would be looking for an exit strategy as the future looks bleak.

 

[father_jack]

One friend of mine got stuffed for £64.30 to get to Walsall not that long ago by the station ticket office at Bristol TM (why didn't they give him a cheaper fare automatically, you might wonder?

The ticket offices should be obliged to give the lowest possible fare for a customer's journey as a rule without being asked.

Snipped your post to say it's a bit lazy to blame staff for what the rail industry rules are-

Combination of tickets​

The Fares Finder has fares for most through journeys. Tickets should always be sold for the throughout journey required unless a customer specially requests more than one ticket for the journey. In such cases the combination of tickets should cover the entire journey being made. The National Rail Conditions of Travel specify circumstances when tickets may be used in combination (Conditions 14.1 - 14.4).

 

[ainsworth74]

It is interesting that the RMT vs. ScotRail dispute has been sorted and the length of time that the dispute south of the border has been going on makes me start to wonder what the true aim of the dispute in England really is: if the RMT keep this up then there may not be enough in the profits of NR and TOCs to give them a pay rise!

See what I find interesting is that the OAOs, FOCs, Scotrail and TfW have all (at least I think it's now all, certainly most anyway!) managed to come to an agreement with the Unions. What they have in common is that they're outside the direct control of the DfT and ultimately HM Treasury.

Where the DfT don't hold away it seems there is a deal suitable for both parties...

 

[Watershed]

See what I find interesting is that the OAOs, FOCs, Scotrail and TfW have all (at least I think it's now all, certainly most anyway!) managed to come to an agreement with the Unions. What they have in common is that they're outside the direct control of the DfT and ultimately HM Treasury.

Where the DfT don't hold away it seems there is a deal suitable for both parties...

With the OAOs and FOCs it's a different story though because everyone knows that if strikes persist, it could lead to a very real prospect of the business shutting up shop. The same risk isn't perceived to exist with the 'franchised' operators - though I wouldn't entirely rule this possibility out (it's effectively how the flexible rostering dispute of the early 80s was resolved).

The examples of ScotRail and TfW (amongst others such as Merseyrail) do, of course, show that it's possible to reach a settlement. But clearly those administrations are willing to spend more of their budgets in order to settle the disputes; Westminster isn't.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One of the aspects of the "deals" agreed between the unions and a number of TOCs is that they do not cover Network Rail, for which only the DfT is responsible.
There are at least two different disputes going on, and the NR one has the most disruptive impact on services, as it can stop virtually all trains.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Has anyone seen reports of this temporary timetable on the mainstream media? I can't seem to find anything.

 

[mike57]

Has anyone seen reports of this temporary timetable on the mainstream media? I can't seem to find anything.

I dont think its definite yet but there are hints, e.g. this from the Northern website


The words (and in between) are possibly a clue

 

[Goldfish62]

I dont think its definite yet but there are hints, e.g. this from the Northern website

View attachment 124651
The words (and in between) are possibly a clue

I imagine they're all hedging their bets.

There's another meeting between Lynch and Harper today.

 

[yorksrob]

See what I find interesting is that the OAOs, FOCs, Scotrail and TfW have all (at least I think it's now all, certainly most anyway!) managed to come to an agreement with the Unions. What they have in common is that they're outside the direct control of the DfT and ultimately HM Treasury.

Where the DfT don't hold away it seems there is a deal suitable for both parties...

Indeed. The Metro mayor for Newcastle rightly pointed out on Radio 4 a couple of days ago that wherever devolved governments or metropolitan authorities had control over railway services, most, if not all of the industrial action had been settled.

It's only the rest of England where the squatter 'government' is in control that the dispute is intractable.

 

[Mag_seven]

No trains after 18.00 throughout the Christmas period (which is what is being proposed here) would cause great damage to the evening hospitality industry just as it is trying to recover during the first restriction free Christmas for two years. People are growing increasingly frustrated with the rail industry holding the post Covid recovery back.

 

[Kite159]

I dont think its definite yet but there are hints, e.g. this from the Northern website

View attachment 124651
The words (and in between) are possibly a clue

I would say the 'in between' wording is for the Thursday between the strikes periods.
Based on previous weeks where they have walked out on the Tuesday, Thursday + Saturday when the timetables for Wednesday+ Friday has been heavily reduced with some routes not getting any trains.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Where the DfT don't hold away it seems there is a deal suitable for both parties...

Absolutely.

It takes two sides to negotiate. Clearly in the devolved regions both parties have been willing to negotiate. Clearly this isn’t the case where the government are in control.

For all the public bluster, the RMT are actually sensible and pragmatic negotiators. They are no pushovers, and they will fight hard, but they are not unreasonable or unrealistic. TfL closed ticket offices, the RMT made lots of noise about "save our ticket offices" but, ultimately, they were always fighting for a good payoff for those being made redundant rather than stopping it.

Where talks fail it is usually because the other negotiator is not equally sensible and pragmatic.

Clearly this government, the pub covers band version of Thatcherism that it is, are interested in playing hard ball rather than negotiating a sensible agreement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For all the public bluster, the RMT are actually sensible and pragmatic negotiators. They are no pushovers, and they will fight hard, but they are not unreasonable or unrealistic. TfL closed ticket offices, the RMT made lots of noise about "save our ticket offices" but, ultimately, they were always fighting for a good payoff for those being made redundant rather than stopping it.

Ticket offices don't have as much leverage as traincrew and signallers, though, as the service can operate without them. Sure it'd cost the TOC money in unpaid fares, but the public would remain on-side, possibly even more so as they would in some cases get a free trip, particularly if revenue guards decided to be quite finiticky about safety duties and thus conveniently didn't collect it themselves either. (Given how few WMT guards bother doing tickets, this must be very easy to do provided the Union steadfastly avoid getting involved in it so as to avoid being accused of sympathetic action).

In other words, if DaFT want to close ticket offices they can.

Whereas if the railway operates nothing over the Christmas shopping and party season, the public buy-in will be lost entirely.

 

[bramling]

No trains after 18.00 throughout the Christmas period (which is what is being proposed here) would cause great damage to the evening hospitality industry just as it is trying to recover during the first restriction free Christmas for two years. People are growing increasingly frustrated with the rail industry holding the post Covid recovery back.

The flip side of that coin is that if rail is as irrelevant as some people claim, how can the sector be holding the post-Covid recovery back?

From what I see, poor productivity across the board is acting as a significant drag. Many people seem to be like the living dead at work, and attendance still seems dire.