SWT service collapse, 23/12/09

[starrymarkb]

450 and 444 will have done 110mph at least in testing. To be plated for 100mph it has to achieve 10% overspeed

Fastest known slammer is a 4-REP doing 117* (iirc) on the Tonbridge straight to demonstrate the 3rd rail to some (terrified) SNCF engineers

*measured by Radar, was off the on train speedos

as for unofficial speeds, nearly all stock now has a black box data recorder on board (IIRC its now a legal requirement with exceptions for a couple of soon to be withdrawn types)

 

[SWT Driver]

Been to 1**mph with a Wessy myself, by accident of course!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well the service limit was always 100mph, but I do know that from personal experience they will go above it especially on the bank down from Wallers Ash tunnel through Winchester to Allbrook if you had a clear run.

I used to be brilliant fun if you had one on a diverted 1Pxx service, running NON STOP Woking to Fratton, if you worked it out correctly you could have greens all the way down to Shawford! Whooosh!

There used to be no buzz like whacking through Winchester at 100 & scaring the local out of their skin!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But at your age now SWT Driver, not too much excitement - you might have a heart attack!

 

[SWT Driver]

No chance of that.

The only thing that's likely to give me a coronary is putting up with Alton/Surrey/London commuters.

 

[Drsatan]

With regards to the older units, I have a simpler way of determining why the old 41x's and 442's are better than the modern things they've been replaced with:

• 450 Desiro - Service limit: 100mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 102.10mph
• 411 4-CEP - Service limit: 125mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 128.75mph. 8)
  .
• 444 Desiro - Service limit: 100mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 101.66mph
• 442 Wessex - Service limit: 135mph. Testing limit: 128mph. Max recorded speed: 144.25mph*.
  * - Achieved with top-notch running to top of incline, brakes full off, and neutral selected at just the right moment. \m/

...'Nuff said! 8)

Did you achieve those speeds on MSTS?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Probably was Drsatan!

 

[royaloak]

I like the way the wessie has a "service" speed higher than its "tested" speed

 

[Domeyhead]

Ah Ha! The marvellous & hideously inaccurate piece of internet claptrap called Wikipedia, it would be a brilliant thing it it wasn't so **** poor & so wide of the mark so often.

To think there are several million MUGS/IDIOTS who pay to keep this rubbish going.

Still it's American, so you can't really say anymore on it. If it were done in the UK you could probably expect a more accurate thing.

Leaving aside the biographical details of celebrities which can be ignored by anyone using it as serios reference perhaps you could do a little value assessment by listing some examples of "hideous innacuracy". As it occurs "so often" you should have no trouble bringing us a dozen or so in no time at all.
Off you go then.

 

[class377man]

Wikipedia is fine if other sources are cited at the foot of the page, which they are far more often than it's detractors like to think.

I have no idea what "Still it's American, so you can't really say anymore on it. If it were done in the UK you could probably expect a more accurate thing" is supposed to mean either. Brits can and do edit it, and I very much doubt much if any of the Class 442 article in question for example was written by Americans, or anyone else.

 

[Broken Viking]

When and where were these speeds supposedly achieved?

...Not quite the 144 mph that Death gave.

That's an approximation based on a journey that I made some years ago on an up service from Farnborough, which ran non-stop at full tilt between there and Clapham. Although I didn't have any view of the speedo (Not that it would've registered that high!) of course, the fact that we covered the 45-odd miles between Farnborough and Clapham in around 30 minutes suggests that kind of speed...When accelleration/decelleration and dropping down to 60mph for the Woking pass are taken into account.

Well Wikipedia's just about right on this one; I've clocked a 442 at about 110, so 108 sounds about right. I expect Death made up those huge top speeds himself, he's a bit of a speed freak and probably wants to make Desiros look rubbish.

I think Celia might be quite right on this one...

...Although give me a half well maintained 442, a fully cleared line between Winchester and Clapham, and exemption from line speed limits (Which are complete piffle on the BSML anyway...That line could easily handle 350+mph!) and I'll show ye what 155mph in a Wessex feels like!

450 and 444 will have done 110mph at least in testing. To be plated for 100mph it has to achieve 10% overspeed

From speaking with a Siemens engineer at Southampton yard, both classes were tested to 125mph on the Wildenrath test track in Germany before being produced en-masse and shipped to the UK.

Fastest known slammer is a 4-REP doing 117* (iirc) on the Tonbridge straight to demonstrate the 3rd rail to some (terrified) SNCF engineers
*measured by Radar, was off the on train speedos

I'm sure I've had a 12-CEP/CIG doing over 120mph on the BSML before now...Although I could be mistaken. One of the best things about undamped coil-spring suspension is that - On certain "rattly" sections of line - It can make even 60mph seem a whole lot faster! 8)

as for unofficial speeds, nearly all stock now has a black box data recorder on board (IIRC its now a legal requirement with exceptions for a couple of soon to be withdrawn types)

I hope to the Gods that the ones in Pendos can handle four-digit speeds then, assuming I ever manage to win the lottery and get a driving job with Virgin! hock:

Note to self: Ensure that the OTMR in the APT-XP draft uses 64-bit unsigned integers for all speed and accelleration/decelleration record...Though 256-bit might be more appropriate!

I like the way the wessie has a "service" speed higher than its "tested" speed

Ahh...But back in BR days - When they did things properly - The "service" speed was simply a minimum benchmark for how fast the train should be able to go to maintain timetabled service. Increasing speed capability above this benchmark was often a personal aim for the engineers who worked on them, with some stunning results on certain classes...The 370 APT-P and the 43 HST being two extremely good examples!

 

[royaloak]

That's an approximation based on a journey that I made some years ago on an up service from Farnborough, which ran non-stop at full tilt between there and Clapham. the fact that we covered the 45-odd miles between Farnborough and Clapham in around 30 minutes suggests that kind of speed...When accelleration/decelleration and dropping down to 60mph for the Woking pass are taken into account.

45 miles in 30 minutes is 90mph, line speed from Farnborough though Woking UMFL to M25 flyover is 100, then 90 to Hampton Court jn, 85 to Surbiton, 80 to New Malden then 75 till just before Clapham.
So most of the route would be above or at 90mph.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

As someone who's never driven a train I'm afraid I can only comment from the perspective of a passenger, lounging around in my nice spacious padded compartment.

I'm sure South-Eastern 465 will agree with me

Sure do

 

[Vlad the Impaler]

45 miles in 30 minutes is 90mph, line speed from Farnborough though Woking UMFL to M25 flyover is 100, then 90 to Hampton Court jn, 85 to Surbiton, 80 to New Malden then 75 till just before Clapham.
So most of the route would be above or at 90mph.

Bloomin' Flash Harrys whizzing up and down the fasts all day.

We normally get stuck on the slows (invariabley behind an all shacks chav mover) unless its late at night or they just want rid off us



V

 

[MrC]

I'm sure I've had a 12-CEP/CIG doing over 120mph on the BSML before now...

As someone who used to drive these things I'd have said it was unlikely (read:nigh on impossible) unless you had 3 extremely good greyhound units together, a steep gradient and a following hurricane. It wasn't unknown for the more knackered examples to really struggle to get to 80mph Farnborough-Basingstoke.

Drivers who've driven single 4-REPs report they could quite easily reach these speeds but then they did have about 3200hp to play with rather than the 1000hp of a 4-CIG or 4-CEP (I think there was a standing instruction that a single 4-REP had to run with one motor coach cut out). An old driver I knew was a test driver when BR were trying out different brake block materials to try and improve high speed braking on the 4-REPs and had some rather interesting tales to tell

 

[yorksrob]

450 and 444 will have done 110mph at least in testing. To be plated for 100mph it has to achieve 10% overspeed

Fastest known slammer is a 4-REP doing 117* (iirc) on the Tonbridge straight to demonstrate the 3rd rail to some (terrified) SNCF engineers

*measured by Radar, was off the on train speedos

as for unofficial speeds, nearly all stock now has a black box data recorder on board (IIRC its now a legal requirement with exceptions for a couple of soon to be withdrawn types)

Wow, I'd love to have been on that! Probably have gone for a cold rather than a hot drink from the buffet car though

 

[nowananorack]

Went by Fareham viaduct at around 4.40 on the 23rd. Pair of 444's, with lights on and no sign of life, stopped above the Gosport turnoff. Still there around 5.30 with someone in the Portsmouth end cab, door open, and a couple of Network Fail vans on the road.
With regards the 3rd rail icing problem. In BR days there used to be a number of reformed redundant units used for sandite or de-icing purposes. They were usually formed of two motor driving coaches with pickups on all four bogies. They were still around in Railtrack days. Do they still exist or are we stuck with the MPV's? How do they de-ice / grease the 3rd rail these days, or don't they...... I also thought that when snow and / or ice was expected, ghost trains were run to keep the line clear.
I remember a rather snowy day in Portsmouth, a number of years ago, struggling from Portsmouth & Southsea to Havant on a Waterloo fast using COR's. The snow was heavy but the train got through, unlike the buses.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Quite simple.

1/ Desiro's are the biggest pile ...... and the train will eventually shutdown.

Their shoegear is lightweight & unlike a 455, they have a tendency to snap off easily.

A 455 on the other hand built by BR who knew a thing or two about building trains, unlike the cowboy private sector, has a nice heavy weight set of shoe gear compared to the crappy new stock, it also doesn't have the crappy electronics & sensitive computers that new stock has, so will generally keep going.

The problem is that everybody, including those that specify the trains these days, is obsessed with saving weight and reducing energy consumption. Those nasty private sector train builders get heavily penalised if the rolling stock is too heavy and the TOC gets hammered with a high track access charge for high axle loads.

The sooner train designers get back to being accused of being agricultural (and that being regarded as a compliment, not a criticism), the better!

 

[royaloak]

Dont think so,
a 4 coach 455 weighs 132.6 tonnes
a 4 coach 450 weighs 172.2 tonnes,
a 4 coach 377 weighs 161.2 tonnes

If we compare 3 coach diesel units -
158-115.5 tonnes
170-132.9 tonnes
185-163.0 tonnes
so the modern stuff is not exactly lightweight.

 

[yorksrob]

Went by Fareham viaduct at around 4.40 on the 23rd. Pair of 444's, with lights on and no sign of life, stopped above the Gosport turnoff. Still there around 5.30 with someone in the Portsmouth end cab, door open, and a couple of Network Fail vans on the road.
With regards the 3rd rail icing problem. In BR days there used to be a number of reformed redundant units used for sandite or de-icing purposes. They were usually formed of two motor driving coaches with pickups on all four bogies. They were still around in Railtrack days. Do they still exist or are we stuck with the MPV's? How do they de-ice / grease the 3rd rail these days, or don't they...... I also thought that when snow and / or ice was expected, ghost trains were run to keep the line clear.
I remember a rather snowy day in Portsmouth, a number of years ago, struggling from Portsmouth & Southsea to Havant on a Waterloo fast using COR's. The snow was heavy but the train got through, unlike the buses.

I used to do some temping work in the summer about twelve years ago just next door to Chart Leacon and there were always plenty of these units there (mainly old SUB and EPB's.) Went past Chart on the train yesterday and could just about spot what looked like one still there. If anyone on this forum works there and can confirm I'd be fascinated to know. (I suspect a ride around on one of the VOP's would be too much to ask)

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Dont think so,
a 4 coach 455 weighs 132.6 tonnes
a 4 coach 450 weighs 172.2 tonnes,
a 4 coach 377 weighs 161.2 tonnes

If we compare 3 coach diesel units -
158-115.5 tonnes
170-132.9 tonnes
185-163.0 tonnes
so the modern stuff is not exactly lightweight.

My word, you're absolutely right. I stand corrected.

So what's all this ****ocks from the ROSCOs, the SRA and then DfT about saving weight and penalising heavy trains then??

 

[royaloak]

The 172s only have a lightweight bogie compared to a 170 so only save a couple of tonnes at the most.
The 185s are not allowed to run at "sprinter" speeds and a lot of other modern stuff is speed restricted over certain lines or bridges.
I think the only way to make them heavier would be to make them out of concrete!

 

[MrC]

Dont think so,
a 4 coach 455 weighs 132.6 tonnes
a 4 coach 450 weighs 172.2 tonnes,
a 4 coach 377 weighs 161.2 tonnes

Also (very rough figures) :-

a 5 coach 442 weighs 200 tonnes
a 5 coach 444 weighs 220 tonnes

 

[Oswyntail]

The problem is that everybody, including those that specify the trains these days, is obsessed with saving weight and reducing energy consumption.

And that might be because everyone else is obsessed with lard-arsing the things up with aircon, tertiary systems, PA etc etc. The makers have to save weight to allow for these. Same happening to modern cars. Not good for environment, but feel luxurious

 

[nowananorack]

How did we get onto the weight's of trains whereas the original weight issue was to do with the quality of shoegear, comparing 455's with 444/450?

Quote from page 1:-
1/ Desiro's are the biggest pile of $h1t going in bad weather their electronics just like all modern stock cannot handle the spikes & fluctuations caused by a heavily iced juice rail, so they thrown a complete mental and the train will eventually shutdown.

Their shoegear is lightweight & unlike a 455, they have a tendency to snap off easily.

What does the weight of a coach have to do with the shoegear.

 

[starrymarkb]

My word, you're absolutely right. I stand corrected.

So what's all this ****ocks from the ROSCOs, the SRA and then DfT about saving weight and penalising heavy trains then??

Because NR are ****ed off with the heavy Desiro's track muching. Our track has been maintained for light trains and the new stock is smashing the hell out of it. BR built for rough track (look at how well a 158 rides over poor track) but Siemens seem to build for well maintained track...

Mind you an ICE1 is very very heavy indeed. The unpowered coaches weigh up to 60T each!