SWT service collapse, 23/12/09

[royaloak]

Oy cheeky bugger, its not my fault I had all this leave to use up by the end of December , I am really missing you, honest

 

[SWT Driver]

I suppose I should be grateful there's no mistletoe around... Phew!

 

[royaloak]

oh I will just have to give you a nice big hug when i see you in the mess room

 

[Drsatan]

Does anyone reckon we could be seeing a brief return of the 442's and hiring of loco-hauled heritage stock to make up service capacity?

In BR days that would have been possible, but nowadays it's cheaper (and easier) to hire rail replacement buses instead of hiring locomotives, drivers and rolling stock. With rail replacement buses the only loser is the passenger. Most commuters would prefer a ride in a Mk2 air con behind a 67 as opposed to a coach which would get stuck in all the attendant chaos on the roads.

 

[thefab444]

Does anyone reckon we could be seeing a brief return of the 442's and hiring of loco-hauled heritage stock to make up service capacity?

I bloody well hope not, last thing we need when it's already a farce is some piece of heritage crap failing on the mainline. :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

That's a nice idea mate, although there's only one SR DEMU registered for main-line use today, which is a class 201 (Hastings line DEMU). To use it in regular passenger service, even if SWT leased it from a spot-hire company, there would be all manner of bureaucratic hurdles to leap across, so that idea, for the time being, would be a non-starter. I remember reading that during a particularly severe winter in 1991 where the snow overtopped the conductor rail, meaning that no 3rd rail units could run, BR simply used any available diesel locomotives to drag stricken units to their destinations. I don't think that would be possible today because in order to drag a desiro, any locomotive would need a translator wagon because the desiros use Dellner couplers, and there aren't many translator wagons around anyway. Secondly, SWT would have to pay the FOCs/ spot-hire companies fairly hefty leasing fees; it would be (unfortunately for the passenger) cheaper to hire replacement buses.

And yes, I believe the "Thumpers" were powered by a single 680bhp English Electric engine, which isn't much when called upon to move two or three carriages. Because I've never traveled on a "Thumper" I can't really vouch for their performance, other than that they probably were underpowered.

As far as I'm aware, the 201 is kitted out with such modern niceties as central door locking particularly so it can be hired out for main line operation. I believe from a previous thread it's also exempt from some of the Mk 1 restrictions as the outer carriages are partly taken up with the engine rooms. DEMU's were often used in the 80's on electric lines in heavy snow

 

[MrC]

Does anyone reckon we could be seeing a brief return of the 442's...

My favourites to drive but not the best of units in slippery conditions - all that power in one relatively light coach does not make for rapid progress

Even worse if you got 2017 before it was emasculated as it could out-drag a 450 from a stand and was a real handful on anything but a perfectly dry rail.

Happy days

 

[Tom C]

I bloody well hope not, last thing we need when it's already a farce is some piece of heritage crap failing on the mainline.

You mean the "heritage crap" which is tried and tested in severe weather. As opposed to the modern crap which doesn't work at all?.

 

[thefab444]

As opposed to the modern crap which doesn't work at all?.

I don't know where this is coming from, the main problem for SWT, as far as I was lead to believe, was units freezing to the conductor rail. This wouldn't have happened with heritage muck then?

I'd sooner take a Desiro on 364 days of the year than a Slammer on 365 days. People bleat about the old trains being better, but these are the same people who bleated about how the Slammers were a disgrace etc. (I'm more referring to slightly educated pax, rather than anyone on here).

 

[MrC]

You mean the "heritage crap" which is tried and tested in severe weather. As opposed to the modern crap which doesn't work at all?.

Hmm more rose tinted specs. Back when the '57s and '63s were introduced they were apparently diabolical (this from a now sadly deceased neighbour who was involved with TPO stock and who worked alongside the BR design, build and implementation teams). It took /years/ to work out all the bad design, poor workmanship (no unit was identical) and iffy materials. By the time we got our hands on them all they were a bit like grandfather's axe. And if you think mk.1 emus were good in bad weather then you've a strange definition of 'good'.

And I've not yet seen the Desiros 'not work at all'. At least modern units tend to put their hands up and say 'enough' before terminal damage is caused. The old stock used to soldier on until they were so damaged they'd be out of circulation for weeks afterwards. People tend to forget the number of old Mk.1 emus that would literally go up in flames after a long session of hand-notching to avoid wheelslip.

 

[GodAtum]

Are there any slam-door trains still in operation on mainline services?

 

[Tom C]

I don't know where this is coming from, the main problem for SWT, as far as I was lead to believe, was units freezing to the conductor rail. This wouldn't have happened with heritage muck then?

Yes it would have happened with the "heritage muck". The difference is the modern crap stops working with a little bit of ice whereas the "heritage muck" didn't.

I'd sooner take a Desiro on 364 days of the year than a Slammer on 365 days. People bleat about the old trains being better, but these are the same people who bleated about how the Slammers were a disgrace etc. (I'm more referring to slightly educated pax, rather than anyone on here).

Now I would rather not take a Desiro at all. Having worked around and used them for the best part of 30 years, my opinion is that they were better in just about every area. I for one have never advocated there withdrawl and I doubt I ever will but perhaps thats because I am only slightly educated.

Hmm more rose tinted specs. Back when the '57s and '63s were introduced they were apparently diabolical (this from a now sadly deceased neighbour who was involved with TPO stock and who worked alongside the BR design, build and implementation teams). It took /years/ to work out all the bad design, poor workmanship (no unit was identical) and iffy materials. By the time we got our hands on them all they were a bit like grandfather's axe. And if you think mk.1 emus were good in bad weather then you've a strange definition of 'good'

And I've not yet seen the Desiros 'not work at all'. At least modern units tend to put their hands up and say 'enough' before terminal damage is caused. The old stock used to soldier on until they were so damaged they'd be out of circulation for weeks afterwards. People tend to forget the number of old Mk.1 emus that would literally go up in flames after a long session of hand-notching to avoid wheelslip.

Well, thats a totally different story from the ones who I work with who were also around when they were introduced. You will struggle to find a member of staff at Lovers Walk or Selhurst who have worked with them as Guards, Drivers or worked on them who have a bad word to say about them.

As for bad weather well I have never seen services being so drastically hit by what was in reality a bit of snow. Whilst they did suffer from "over exersion" its certainly better than a 377 going into load shed on the Brighton mainline and staying there for the best part of a day forcing everything to come to a complete halt which is what happened the other day. I can't say I ever saw that happen with a 400. I can remember when the weather was particuarly dreadful about 10 years ago catching a 400 to Lewes for a connection to Newhaven to go to Dieppe and there was not a single problem. The train arrived at East Croydon bang on time, got to Lewes bang on time and caught my connection which was.......bang on time. But the important thing was the train didn't go bang. I also came back the same evening and the weather had worsened but the service hadn't.

Nothing works perfectly in ice and snow but in my opinion we didn't have to build an ark.

As for rose tinted specs, you are absolutely right. I have no shame in saying that I hanker for the good old days because in my opinion things were better in the good old days.

Guess its a case of agree to disagree.

 

[MCR247]

Are there any slam-door trains still in operation on mainline services?

HSTs, Sleepers, LHCS

 

[royaloak]

. At least modern units tend to put their hands up and say 'enough' before terminal damage is caused.

Not like the 444 Driving coach that was out for 10 months, being completely re-wired, or the 450 Driving coach that was out for 7 months after going up in the snow last January.
I do see what you are saying though, but a 455 will keep going (with care) when a Disastro will refuse to move.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know where this is coming from, the main problem for SWT, as far as I was lead to believe, was units freezing to the conductor rail. This wouldn't have happened with heritage muck then?

I'd sooner take a Desiro on 364 days of the year than a Slammer on 365 days. People bleat about the old trains being better, but these are the same people who bleated about how the Slammers were a disgrace etc. (I'm more referring to slightly educated pax, rather than anyone on here).

Rest assured, I'd sooner take a slammer EVERY day of the week - and I used to say so even when there were still plenty about

 

[thefab444]

Guess its a case of agree to disagree.

Not entirely! I agree with you that 377s are rubbish.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Rest assured, I'd sooner take a slammer EVERY day of the week - and I used to say so even when there were still plenty about

I could not agree more

If I had a chance I would Rather take a 'Slammer everyday over any modern crap.

 

[MrC]

You will struggle to find a member of staff at Lovers Walk or Selhurst who have worked with them as Guards, Drivers or worked on them who have a bad word to say about them.

Speaking as a driver some of the things that were less than wonderful:-

• Leaky draughty cabs, especially on fast services. Some units would flood through the front door so you had to remember to hang your bag on something to avoid getting it wet
• a prehistoric control system that wouldn't let you reduce power without shutting off and taking power at a lower notch
• tread brakes that were hopeless at reducing speed from any reasonable speed
• triple valve brake system that took forever to charge a 12-car
• air leaks that meant most units went flat as soon as your key was off (modified self pumping '63s excepted)
• no two units behaved the same; some units behaved differently when driven from different cabs
• variable performance - get a good greyhound and performance was great; get a knackered old Kent Coaster and lose time everywhere; get a 12-car with a mix of units and you had to remember the old notch 4 to 42, back to notch 3 until speed got above 45ish then notch 4 again to avoid the god-awful lurching as each unit weak-fielded at different times
• the auto brake; just don't talk to me about the auto brake on a 12-car OK?; the auto brake belongs on freights not on passenger services
• deadmans on the power handle - OK if you were built like King Kong & could keep it down by resting your arm on it but for everyone else a real pain (literally) if driving something like the 18:30 Wat-Wey 1st stop Winchester unless you took the risk of hanging your bag off the power handle or coasting in neutral
• etc, etc, etc

As for rose tinted specs, you are absolutely right. I have no shame in saying that I hanker for the good old days because in my opinion things were better in the good old days.

Guess its a case of agree to disagree.

Yup I'd go with that. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying modern stock is perfect - far from it - they have their own problems. On balance driving a slammer or (preferably) a 442 is way more satisfying than driving a Desiro simply because the driver has to do more and gets more involved. What I do disagree with is people saying old stock was perfect - it simply wasn't.

 

[Aictos]

Speaking as a driver some of the things that were less than wonderful:-

• Some units would flood through the front door so you had to remember to hang your bag on something to avoid getting it wet

• 
  
  The FCC 313s are terrible for that especially when it rains, with puddles forming around the emergency door in the vestibule area and that's not even with the air conditioning as well which tends to leak water from time to time.
  
  Most drivers I know just use the secondman seat to place their bag on especially when it rains, otherwise the bag gets wet.

 

[yorksrob]

Yup I'd go with that. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying modern stock is perfect - far from it - they have their own problems. On balance driving a slammer or (preferably) a 442 is way more satisfying than driving a Desiro simply because the driver has to do more and gets more involved. What I do disagree with is people saying old stock was perfect - it simply wasn't.

As someone who's never driven a train I'm afraid I can only comment from the perspective of a passenger, lounging around in my nice spacious padded compartment.

I'm sure South-Eastern 465 will agree with me

 

[Tom C]

Yup I'd go with that. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying modern stock is perfect - far from it - they have their own problems. On balance driving a slammer or (preferably) a 442 is way more satisfying than driving a Desiro simply because the driver has to do more and gets more involved. What I do disagree with is people saying old stock was perfect - it simply wasn't.

I completely agree.

400's were not perfect. The vans had a heater which would either melt human bone or not work at all. If it was slightly chilly you would end up with a furnace, VEP's were a bit to narrow to walk through (mind you so are 377's!) and they could be a bit draughty.

What I disagree with is this notion that they were hidious, terrible, unsafe hulks which needed to be put out of their misery. They were wonderful units which were full of character, every unit had its own little squeaks and faults, they were like people.

From a passenger perspective they were extreamly comfortable, from a fitters perspective they could be fixed with a big tap with a small hammer or a little tap with a sledgehammer but they would keep going and it would be a rare day that one would let you down.

They ARE better than the modern replacements for so many reasons.

So not perfect but as close as you could get

 

[Drsatan]

One bonus for the passenger was that the 400s had huge parcel vans that could be used for storing bikes. 'Tis ironic that at a time when we're being encouraged to cycle nearly all post-privatisation trains have comparatively little bike space.

 

[SWT Driver]

One bonus for the passenger was that the 400s had huge parcel vans that could be used for storing bikes. 'Tis ironic that at a time when we're being encouraged to cycle nearly all post-privatisation trains have comparatively little bike space.

Not that SWT give a damned about safety.

It's illegal to put/leave a bike in any doorway on a Desiro, as they're ALL emergency exits as they're all equipped with Green Door Egress Handles & it's an offence to knowingly obstruct an emergency exit as any lawyer will tell you.

I know on the Soton-Portsmouth line the idiots put a 2 car 158 on a morning peak service & they just allow any amount of them on, which is bloody stupid & downright dangerous.

Still what's safety when it affects profits? :roll:

 

[Golden Gripper]

Going back to the OHL vs 3rd rail discussion earlier, about twenty years ago there was a magazine article which suggested that the best way to electrify would be 3rd rail, but in a different form to that which has evolved.

Basically the proposal was that there should be what amounted to a ceramic pipe with a slot along the top down the centre of the four foot. Inside the pipe, immeadiately along each side of the slot would be the contact strip and hanging down from the bogie would be an arm with a contact shoe at the bottom that pressed up on both strips.

Because the contact strip was completely enclosed a higher voltage would be possible and the strip would be protected from the weather. In addition it wasn't vulnerable to the twigs that blow off trees bringing down OHL.

Just thought you might be interested.

 

[Broken Viking]

With regards to the older units, I have a simpler way of determining why the old 41x's and 442's are better than the modern things they've been replaced with:

• 450 Desiro - Service limit: 100mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 102.10mph
• 411 4-CEP - Service limit: 125mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 128.75mph. 8)
  .
• 444 Desiro - Service limit: 100mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 101.66mph
• 442 Wessex - Service limit: 135mph. Testing limit: 128mph. Max recorded speed: 144.25mph*.
  * - Achieved with top-notch running to top of incline, brakes full off, and neutral selected at just the right moment. \m/

...'Nuff said! 8)

Not that SWT give a damned about safety...
It's illegal to put/leave a bike in any doorway on a Desiro, as they're ALL emergency exits as they're all equipped with Green Door Egress Handles & it's an offence to knowingly obstruct an emergency exit as any lawyer will tell you.

Hmm...In that case, the same must be true for FGWlink's 165's/166's, and I've seen many people leaving their bikes next to the doors on those too...Indeed, on a 165 the vestibule is the only place where a standard bike can possibly be carried! hock:

Funnily enough though, I've never ever been told this by any other passengers or even the Guards whenever I've stowed my bike in the vestibules. Could be because I always stand next to it - With the EDR handle in arms reach - And it'd be a simple matter for me to release the doors and hurl my bike off the train to make way if an evacuation was needed, possibly?

...Although if SWT truly didn't give a damn about that wierd "safety" thing, theyd've employed me as a driver years ago! hock:

Going back to the OHL vs 3rd rail discussion earlier, about twenty years ago there was a magazine article which suggested that the best way to electrify would be 3rd rail, but in a different form to that which has evolved.

Basically the proposal was that there should be what amounted to a ceramic pipe with a slot along the top down the centre of the four foot. Inside the pipe, immeadiately along each side of the slot would be the contact strip and hanging down from the bogie would be an arm with a contact shoe at the bottom that pressed up on both strips.

Because the contact strip was completely enclosed a higher voltage would be possible and the strip would be protected from the weather. In addition it wasn't vulnerable to the twigs that blow off trees bringing down OHL.

I can see that being a pig at speeds over 50mph though as - Depending on the size of the slot on the top of the conduit - There'd probabally be a lot of harsh contact between the blade (shoe) and the busbars, and at higher speeds any "bumps" or other wear/imperfections in the busbar could lead to the blade being torn right off! hock:

Also, the current TRE system allows some degree of slack for installation errors - If a section of TRE is laid half an inch out of alignment with the running rail, the shoe will still happily stay on top of the rail 98% of the time. With that "half-pipe" system, the tolerances would be much finer than that needed for conventional shoes, and any installation errors would basically make the line impassable for rolling stock with that kind of traction!

Personally, I like what they've done to make things safer for track personnel on the Hamburger S-Bahn (Hamburg commuter rail) system - Although the conductor rail is not much different to an SR one in principle, they've cladded it where possible to make accidental contact and electrocution less of a risk...As the following photo from the German Wikipedia clearly shows:

Although the HH S-Bahn trains use a shoe that rides against the edge of the rail (Hence why the top is cladded) I can't see why two cess-side covers could be placed either side to afford similar protection on SR lines...And such insulation would finally allow us to have a high-voltage TRE system, and break the 150mph barrier that we should've breached over 75 years ago! hock:

 

[Helvellyn]

With regards to the older units, I have a simpler way of determining why the old 41x's and 442's are better than the modern things they've been replaced with:

• 411 4-CEP - Service limit: 125mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 128.75mph. 8)
  .
• 442 Wessex - Service limit: 135mph. Testing limit: 128mph. Max recorded speed: 144.25mph*.
  * - Achieved with top-notch running to top of incline, brakes full off, and neutral selected at just the right moment. \m/

...'Nuff said! 8)

When and where were these speeds supposedly achieved?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

When and where were these speeds supposedly achieved?

According to Wikipedia, for the cl.442

The class holds the world speed record for a third rail train with 174 km/h (108 mph), attained on 11 April 1988.

Not quite the 144 mph that Death gave.

 

[SWT Driver]

Ah Ha! The marvellous & hideously inaccurate piece of internet claptrap called Wikipedia, it would be a brilliant thing it it wasn't so **** poor & so wide of the mark so often.

To think there are several million MUGS/IDIOTS who pay to keep this rubbish going.

Still it's American, so you can't really say anymore on it. If it were done in the UK you could probably expect a more accurate thing.

 

[royaloak]

With regards to the older units, I have a simpler way of determining why the old 41x's and 442's are better than the modern things they've been replaced with:
450 Desiro - Service limit: 100mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 102.10mph
411 4-CEP - Service limit: 125mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 128.75mph.

444 Desiro - Service limit: 100mph. Testing limit: 125mph. Max recorded speed: 101.66mph
442 Wessex - Service limit: 135mph. Testing limit: 128mph. Max recorded speed: 144.25mph*.

Could you let us know what the wheel diameters, gear ratios and traction motor RPMs are at these speeds thanks.

 

[thefab444]

so wide of the mark so often.

Well Wikipedia's just about right on this one; I've clocked a 442 at about 110, so 108 sounds about right. I expect Death made up those huge top speeds himself, he's a bit of a speed freak and probably wants to make Desiros look rubbish.