SWT Intent to avoid payment Court on Thursday!!!!

[DaleCooper]

I signed up to this forum yesterday, and all my replies are still going through a moderator.

Is this correct? I've seen instances where new members have posted minutes after starting a thread.

And my comment of 'jumping the gates' was just a turn of phrase. Ridiculous to bring that up.

It's a problem with this sort of communication, people can only go by what you say they can't guess your intended meaning which is why it's very important to give clear, accurate information that way it's more likely that people can help you.

 

[jhchill666]

Understood, and apologies if I've come across as having an attitude. It's not my intention. I'm just incredibly nervous and worried about the outcome of this.

I know it's by the by, but SWT have never been out of pocket. Yes I walked through the gates, but honestly thought I'd renew my season ticket later, which I did the same day, before the return leg of my journey.

I've never been offered any thing by the TOC other than a straight to court under the RoRA 1889 or whatever. I don't understand why I've been singled out, and I'm honestly no clearer on how I can appeal to them to give me some leniency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS. seems my posts are coming straight through now. Thanks Mr Moderator

 

[221129]

Understood, and apologies if I've come across as having an attitude. It's not my intention. I'm just incredibly nervous and worried about the outcome of this.

I know it's by the by, but SWT have never been out of pocket. Yes I walked through the gates, but honestly thought I'd renew my season ticket later, which I did the same day, before the return leg of my journey.

I've never been offered any thing by the TOC other than a straight to court under the RoRA 1889 or whatever. I don't understand why I've been singled out, and I'm honestly no clearer on how I can appeal to them to give me some leniency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS. seems my posts are coming straight through now. Thanks Mr Moderator

I think it is more that is an easy open and shut case for them. And they could see that by prosecuting you that it could be a deterrant to others.

 

[Agent_c]

Why do I feel like no-one's on my side here?

Because as a matter of the rules, you've broken them.

"I'll pay for it later" doesn't mean much. If the TOC's accepted it, every fare dodger would use that excuse.

Compassion doesn't come into it, its more or less a strict formula. Did you get on the train, did you buy a ticket, can evidence be shown that indicates you didn't intend to buy one. All of the boxes are ticked.

We're being on your side by giving the best advice we can, and that advice is winning this case will be next to impossible for you.

 

[jhchill666]

And in your opinion, getting an out of court settlement at the 11th hour?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And in your opinion, getting an out of court settlement at the 11th hour?

That will be up to the court on the day (i.e. tomorrow). Nobody knows at this point in time.

May I suggest that you now spend your time preparing for your day tomorrow rather than posting on here for "get out of jail free" options. You need to be fully prepared and focused.

 

[jhchill666]

May I suggest that you now spend your time preparing for your day tomorrow rather than posting on here for "get out of jail free" options. You need to be fully prepared and focused.

Yes you may. And thanks everyone for your advice and support. Will let you know how I get on.

 

[GadgetMan]

And in your opinion, getting an out of court settlement at the 11th hour?

I'd turn up to court first thing and wait for the SWT prosecutor, as he/ she will probably get there early. Introduce yourself to the clerk (I think is the correct term?) and ask them to point the SWT prosecutor out when he/she arrives.

They usually prosecute a batch of 20-30 cases on the day one after the other. I've only attended a couple of times as a witness, but found out of the 30 odd cases only one or two of the defendants turn up. The rest are prosecuted in their absence or plead by post.

When you meet the prosecutor ask them if they'd be willing to settle out of court, depending on your attitude they may be more inclined to agree on the day as you've made the effort to turn up early and approach them. It's not guaranteed to work, but you never know.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes you may. And thanks everyone for your advice and support. Will let you know how I get on.

Do please report back as the information you give will help others. Good luck tomorrow !

 

[jhchill666]

When you meet the prosecutor ask them if they'd be willing to settle out of court, depending on your attitude they may be more inclined to agree on the day as you've made the effort to turn up early and approach them. It's not guaranteed to work, but you never know.

I've read else where I'll need a pocket full of cash, if he agrees to settle? Any idea what amount?!

 

[anme]

I might also point out that given the OP buys weekly season tickets the 'I didn't know it had expired' line might not carry too well either - understandable on monthly and longer period passes, but if your ticket runs out every Thursday, it must be hard to forget.

I have to disagree with this. I don't know the OP's circumstances so I can't say whether this applies to them, but I can say how it applies to me.

I went through a period where I did a lot of business travel - sometimes a day or two here and there, sometimes a week or more, sometimes just a half day. It was frequent but not to any regular pattern. If someone had checked my commuting record, they would have seen a mixture of weekly tickets (which might start on any day of the week), daily peak and daily off peak returns, and some peak and off peak singles - depending on what trips were coming up. I didn't buy monthly tickets as I was away several times per month.

I was lucky that my home station was fitted with barriers, so I couldn't end up on a train without my ticket being checked. However, there were certainly occasions when I found my weekly ticket had expired at the station. I know that's an almost criminal failure of personal responsibility in the minds of many on these forums (only 'almost' because I never actually travelled without a valid ticket).

Had I ever been challenged, I could probably have produced evidence for at least some of my business trips. But do remember that many people's lives don't fit into a simple box with a regular five-days-per-week-peak-time commute, and that's not necessarily grounds for suspicion.

 

[jhchill666]

Nice to hear that not everyone on the planet buys their ticket on a Monday, and know exactly when it's going to expire!

My situation is more like yours Anme, and not as simple as a Monday - Friday commuter routine.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I've read else where I'll need a pocket full of cash, if he agrees to settle? Any idea what amount?!

Who knows?

Perhaps take at least £200?

 

[DaleCooper]

From then on I began commuting into London Waterloo from Farnham, buying a weekly season ticket each week.

Nice to hear that not everyone on the planet buys their ticket on a Monday, and know exactly when it's going to expire!

My situation is more like yours Anme, and not as simple as a Monday - Friday commuter routine.

It certainly seemed simple from your first post, once again clarity and consistency are important.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You should be able to speak with the Prosecutor before your matter is heard, as GadgetMan has suggested. An 'Out-of-Court' settlement is emphatically NOT up to the Court to agree or not (by definition!), as robert7111a suggested. It is an agreement between the Company's Prosecutor and you, the Defendant, which might be reached before going into the courtroom.
If it is agreed, you will not have to pay cash (though it would be unlikely to be refused). A cheque would be accepted, as would a committment to pay within a few days.
If the matter goes to Court, and you are found Guilty, then the same applies to the payment of the Fine and the Costs awarded against you by the Court.

 

[SAPhil]

It certainly seemed simple from your first post, once again clarity and consistency are important.

I hate the way almost everyone on this forum comes out with statements like "how is it possible to forget" I assure you it is quite easy!

Many years ago I used to commute in London with a weekly ticket. My starting station had no barrier at that time. I go into work on auto-pilot and sometimes on a bad week don't even know what day of the week it is! It was only the fact that the ticket wouldn't work at the other end that alerted me to the fact it had expired. If the barrier had been open I wouldn't have noticed at all.

When this happened I was able to buy a replacement season at the other end - these days I'd probably be prosecuted!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It is a sad fact these days that nobody wants to take responsibility for themselves. It's always somebody else's fault.

I have a very busy, demanding work schedule that requires me to drive, walk, train to different places. I would never forget to check the petrol gauge in my car; I always check I have my car keys, have enough balance on my Oyster when I'm in London and always check I have put my shoes on before I leave home in the morning

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a very busy, demanding work schedule that requires me to drive, walk, train to different places. I would never forget to check the petrol gauge in my car; I always check I have my car keys, have enough balance on my Oyster when I'm in London and always check I have put my shoes on before I leave home in the morning

Good to know your memory is 100% perfect. Vast swathes of the population do not have that luxury, particularly as they get older.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Good to know your memory is 100% perfect. Vast swathes of the population do not have that luxury, particularly as they get older.

Far from it, I have OCD when it comes to checking things...

 

[SAPhil]

It is a sad fact these days that nobody wants to take responsibility for themselves. It's always somebody else's fault.

Where have I tried to blame anyone else?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Far from it, I have OCD when it comes to checking things...

Many people don't, and indeed forget what to check, particularly when stressed.

 

[talltim]

If you are a regular traveller/season ticket holder, how on earth could you forget that it expired?

I agree that someone buying a weekly would have a more regular schedule but buying monthlies, I have forgotton before boarding before as the end date changes day of the week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What possible connection to the case does having relatives abroad give?

If a mitigating factor is irrelevant it is best to simply not mention it.

It doesn't. It is given as a reason to not want a criminal record as it will impact on being able to travel.

 

[NSEFAN]

Good to know your memory is 100% perfect. Vast swathes of the population do not have that luxury, particularly as they get older.

The railway seems to have become tougher on fare evasion in recent years, presumably due to pressure from above to maximise revenue from the passengers. As a result, cases where discretion may have previously been shown are now ending up with prosecution under either the byelaws or RoRA. A hard line approach is used to crack down on persistent fare evasion, but this ends up with people making honest mistakes paying a high price for doing so.

Discussion about whether this is morally right or wrong doesn't help the OP, as the railway seems to have them bang to rights. They passed two opportunities to pay and are alleged to have tail-gated through the barriers. To me it looks like the TOC has a good chance of successful RoRA conviction. Any chance of settling out of court sounds like it will have to be done on the day in person, before the case is heard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Discussion about whether this is morally right or wrong doesn't help the OP, as the railway seems to have them bang to rights. They passed two opportunities to pay and are alleged to have tail-gated through the barriers. To me it looks like the TOC has a good chance of successful RoRA conviction. Any chance of settling out of court sounds like it will have to be done on the day in person, before the case is heard.

Yes, I agree. I'm just not a fan of the way some people on here like to give posters a kicking for what they did, even if what they did sounds like an unfortunate accident.

This indeed does not avoid the fact that the OP is very likely to be found guilty on both charges, and needs either to accept that and any fine and criminal record it entails, or instruct a good solicitor immediately (with obviously no guarantee of success).

 

[DaleCooper]

I hate the way almost everyone on this forum comes out with statements like "how is it possible to forget" I assure you it is quite easy!

Many years ago I used to commute in London with a weekly ticket. My starting station had no barrier at that time. I go into work on auto-pilot and sometimes on a bad week don't even know what day of the week it is! It was only the fact that the ticket wouldn't work at the other end that alerted me to the fact it had expired. If the barrier had been open I wouldn't have noticed at all.

When this happened I was able to buy a replacement season at the other end - these days I'd probably be prosecuted!

This is a general point not directed at the OP.

It's not so much that it's not possible to forget but that so many people in this situation seem to forget just once but have the misfortune to be stopped on that very day when they freely admit that checks are infrequent. Also by pointing out possible flaws in the story it is just giving a taste of how the prosecutor may look at the case.

 

[anme]

I agree that someone buying a weekly would have a more regular schedule but buying monthlies, I have forgotton before boarding before as the end date changes day of the week.

I explained in post 41 one reason why someone buying a weekly might not have a regular schedule.

In fact, given that weeklies are more expensive than monthlies for people who travel 5 days per week, and that most people are paid monthly, I would expect people buying a weekly to have a less regular schedule. If they had a regular schedule, they would generally be better off buying a monthly.

Or to put it another way - the reason I bought weeklies was exactly because my schedule was too irregular to make monthlies worthwhile!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

jhchill666, I'm not sure I can support this advice given to you by "Neil Williams":

. . . . the OP is very likely to be found guilty on both charges, and needs either to accept that and any fine and criminal record it entails, or instruct a good solicitor immediately (with obviously no guarantee of success).

I have been stuggling to see what is meant by "instruct a good solicitor" and what benefits might follow.
The questions raised are:
- What instuctions could you give which create a benefit to you over the costs incurred?
- what specialisation, skill, support, experience or ability is being refeered to by "good"? I normally advise the services of almost any local Law Firm which specialises in Criminal Defence work, and who therefore are familiar with putting Criminal Prosecution Evidence to proof and to offering persuasive mitigation when it comes to sentencing.

I am not persuaded by 'Neil Williams' that the fact you've presented here will assist any solicitor in reaching an outcome that is more advantageous than the cost of their fee.

 

[jhchill666]

Have woken this morning, flabbergasted by the continued furvent debate on this topic. Thanks everyone for their input, it is honestly appreciated.

Am due in court in a few hours, so will see you all on the other side!

 

[island]

Have woken this morning, flabbergasted by the continued furvent debate on this topic. Thanks everyone for their input, it is honestly appreciated.

Am due in court in a few hours, so will see you all on the other side!

Best of luck. Do try to get there early and negotiate with the prosecutor, including such options as a payment to settle matters or an agreement to plead guilty on the Byelaw offence in return for the RRA offence being dropped.

 

[Darandio]

Have woken this morning, flabbergasted by the continued furvent debate on this topic.

If there is one thing about the disputes & prosecutions section of the forum, it's that people like a debate!

However, I like to look at this in a simple way, it is keeping you engaged in the discussion as well. If that means that you return and let us know what happened, it can only help in the future where people can give advice on similar cases.

You were due in court in 7 minutes or so, by the time of writing this you may well have managed to settle with the prosecutor, do please let us know.