Swt 444/450

[387star]

Hi

Do SWT state in the timetable which services are 444/450 operated especially on the ports direct? would have thought such information would be very important for example the location and size of first class

Why are some faster trains 450 whilst the slower ones are 444? Is this just to do with diagramming?

Is there any chance these reformed junipers could ever make there way to portsmouth?

Sorry this might have been covered before

Does anyone have stock information for the portsmouth harbour to london waterloo via eastleigh service as it seems random whether a 444 or 450 turn up... likewise services through to poole/southampton to bournemouth

The 444 is a very luxurious train

 

[TEW]

They don't advertise it. It's never really going to be far to walk to First Class, as the units are only 4 or 5 carriages long. It's very unlikely a reformed 458 will make its way to Portsmouth, I believe they are being re-geared for 75mph for a start. The Portsmouth/Poole stopping services are a mix of 444s and 450s on weekdays, all single 444s on Saturdays and run as pairs of 444s on Sundays, dividing/joining at Eastleigh. If you want to know what's booked for a particular service I can look for you. I'd hardly call the 444s luxuriously, personally I think the difference between them is very overstated.

 

[swt_passenger]

None of it is random, that's for certain.

Every service operated over the day's timetables, whether it is on the Portsmouth direct or via Eastleigh routes, or Southampton/Poole/Weymouth routes, or indeed any other route where both types can appear, such as to Alton or Basingstoke, has a diagrammed train type, which can then be 4/8/12 car 450s or 5/10 car 444s.

If you get the same service every day you will almost always get the same type/size of train unless there has been a defect, or serious disruption.

As an example, the attached file shows a snapshot of Portsmouth Harbour departures over the course of a day, someone knocked it up a few years back to show that there was no substance to complaints that there were no 444s used at all...

 

[Bringback309s]

This will help... http://www.no450.co.uk/

 

[387star]

The 444s do have a flaw...
End doors creates long dwell.times with very little space to stand in the vestibule

 

[southern442]

What I hate is travelling on a Haslemere train that is a 444 and then changing on to a Portsmouth train that is a 450!

I think that 450s should do the following routes:

London-Basingstoke, Alton, Haslemere, Southampton
Portsmouth-Southampton (which has been a 444 before)
so 444's can do:
London-Weymouth, Poole, Portsmouth and Bournemouth.

 

[Manchester77]

Are there actually enough 444s to do all those routes though

 

[455driver]

Are there actually enough 444s to do all those routes though

Nope, not even close, plus it would upset the Alton line Gestapo if they didnt get the posh trains down their brnchline.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope, not even close, plus it would upset the Alton line Gestapo if they didnt get the posh trains down their branchline.

The Portsmouth direct trains have to be 12 coach 450s to provide enough capacity during the peaks (even the middle seats get used ) and if you put 10 coach 444s on instead you would leave several hundred people behind, but hey what do I know, I just drive (and travel on) those trains!:roll:

 

[Eagle]

The Poole stopper should definitely be a 450, as it's not a long-distance service, it's a combination of two or three local services.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The Poole trains are just as likely to be 444s as they follow the same pattern as the Botley services. Off-Peak only the Solent stoppers, Alton and Basingstoke services are booked soley for 450s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Portsmouth-Southampton (which has been a 444 before)

When was that done as a normal routine then, outside of extraordinary circumstances?

What has happened a few times is that with the Botley line closed for engineering work on a Sunday the the Waterloo to Poole/Portsmouth via Eastleigh has been diverted via a reversal at Southampton and the stopper's calls on the Netley line swapped into the London train (a 444) for overall timetabling purposes by the planners, with the equivalent local service (a 450) running fast between Fareham and Southampton.

Even when that's happened it was only done in one direction...

 

[southern442]

When was that done as a normal routine then, outside of extraordinary circumstances?

What has happened a few times is that with the Botley line closed for engineering work on a Sunday the the Waterloo to Poole/Portsmouth via Eastleigh has been diverted via a reversal at Southampton and the stopper's calls on the Netley line swapped into the London train (a 444) for overall timetabling purposes by the planners, with the equivalent local service (a 450) running fast between Fareham and Southampton.

Even when that's happened it was only done in one direction...

I'm not sure, but I have been on a lot of trains from P'mouth-Southampton that have been 444's.

 

[455driver]

I'm not sure, but I have been on a lot of trains from P'mouth-Southampton that have been 444's.

Is that when the normal timetable is in operation though?

 

[southern442]

Is that when the normal timetable is in operation though?

I'm not sure again, as the last time I was in the P'mouth area on a train was a couple of years ago, and that's when I saw a 444 working a Harbour-Eastleigh train. Thinking about it, it might have been coupled to a 450, but again I don't remember much.

 

[Eagle]

Portsmouth Harbour to Eastleigh (which usually continues to London) is a different route than Portsmouth and Southsea to Southampton Central.

 

[swt_passenger]

You're digging a big hole here...

Having proposed earlier on that you've seen the Portsmouth to Southampton service using 444s, you're now trying to substantiate that by saying it was actually a Portsmouth Harbour to Eastleigh 444 that you saw. It's a separate service, and a different route beyond Fareham.

However it is perfectly normal to get 444s on Portsmouth to Eastleigh, most are heading through to Waterloo. They use 444s and 450s roughly 50/50 on that route Mon - Sat, then on Sunday they are all 444s joining with the Poole service at Eastleigh. There are also a few weekday peak extras on that route to/from Basingstoke using DMUs.

However Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton uses the same route only as far as Fareham, and as said is invariably a 450; except for the single weekday 159 return service from Southampton. 159s have been used all day occasionally during weather disruption, it's one of the snow timetable variations, but since the 444s entered service I've never seen regular use of 444s via Netley, except for the engineering diversions explained earlier...

 

[Matt Taylor]

I'm train crew at Fratton and I have never worked a 444 on the Netley line nor have I ever heard of such a thing-specifically as a 444 won't fit either the up or down platforms at Hamble. It's possible of course, but very rare (like a 444 on the Hounslow loop).

 

[AndyLandy]

Thinking about it, it might have been coupled to a 450, but again I don't remember much.

It's been a while since I've seen a formation of a 444 and a 450. Does this still happen often?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm train crew at Fratton and I have never worked a 444 on the Netley line nor have I ever heard of such a thing-specifically as a 444 won't fit either the up or down platforms at Hamble. It's possible of course, but very rare (like a 444 on the Hounslow loop).

Well I've only ever done Southampton to Swanwick on a 444 once about two or three years ago which had split from a Sunday Poole service and was on diversion. As I said in post #11 the timetable 'swap' was in one direction only, towards Portsmouth, in the other direction the stopper and the Portsmouth to Southampton portion of the Poole - Waterloo service operated in their normal paths out of Portsmouth Harbour.

The stop at Hamble used the 'Local Door' routine (as seen at places like Shawford). I'd agree though it must be very rare, and I'd also easily believe that other than that particular engineering work variation it hasn't ever happened on a day to day basis...

 

[TEW]

However it is perfectly normal to get 444s on Portsmouth to Eastleigh, most are heading through to Waterloo. They use 444s and 450s roughly 50/50 on that route Mon - Sat, then on Sunday they are all 444s joining with the Poole service at Eastleigh. There are also a few weekday peak extras on that route to/from Basingstoke using DMUs.

The line is also 100% 444 on Saturdays, but they aren't combined with the Pooles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's been a while since I've seen a formation of a 444 and a 450. Does this still happen often?

There aren't any booked 450+444 formations but it does happen, normally when there is a 450 vice 444.

 

[Eagle]

However Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton uses the same route only as far as Fareham, and as said is invariably a 450; except for the single weekday 159 return service from Southampton.

Just to point out that this route normally only runs from Portsmouth and Southsea, not Portsmouth Harbour (except for three or four trains a day).

Striving for complete accuracy here.

 

[Matt Taylor]

There aren't any booked 450+444 formations but it does happen, normally when there is a 450 vice 444.

None booked in service but 5P71 00+05 Southsea(LL)-Fratton Depot is a daily booked 444/450 empty stock movement.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just to point out that this route normally only runs from Portsmouth and Southsea, not Portsmouth Harbour (except for three or four trains a day).

Striving for complete accuracy here.

In a return attempt at pedantry, I'd just point out that the route is present 24/7. It's just that the offpeak services don't run the whole length...

 

[455driver]

I'm not sure again, as the last time I was in the P'mouth area on a train was a couple of years ago, and that's when I saw a 444 working a Harbour-Eastleigh train. Thinking about it, it might have been coupled to a 450, but again I don't remember much.

In post 12 you said PMH to Southampton, now its PMH to Eastleigh (which would then continue to Waterloo anyway which can be either a 444 or a 450 depending on time of day and is always a 444 on a Sunday), make your mind up! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(like a 444 on the Hounslow loop).

Which is the normal way to turn them on Monday morning after engineering diversions have turned them around over the weekend.

 

[Matt Taylor]

0737 Waterloo-Hounslow used to be a booked 10 car 444!

 

[455driver]

There is also one about 9ish which is booked a 4 coach 450 but if there is a 444 to turn that will work the trip and the 450 sits on the blocks for an hour.

 

[southern442]

In post 12 you said PMH to Southampton, now its PMH to Eastleigh (which would then continue to Waterloo anyway which can be either a 444 or a 450 depending on time of day and is always a 444 on a Sunday), make your mind up! :roll:

But that is not the point, the point is that they shouldn't be used on those services because they are units built for intercity workings.

And anyway, I think we have cleared up the issue and that it is not a regular working for a 444.

Maybe the PMH-Eastleigh was a cancelled PMH-Waterloo.
I have come up with a solution for the problem, though. They could refurbish a fleet of 450's to 444 standard, e.g 2+2 seating with tables and armrests and 2+1 in first.

On a side note, do the 444's still have the buffet?

 

[Monty]

I'm not sure if the 'kiosk' on the 444s can be classified as a Buffet. But to my knowledge the Rail Gourmet staff only really make use of it when the train is full and standing otherwise they can be found walking up and down the train during the journey.

 

[455driver]

I have come up with a solution for the problem, though. They could refurbish a fleet of 450's to 444 standard, e.g 2+2 seating with tables and armrests and 2+1 in first.

Brilliant idea, what do the people who would normally be sat in the seats (including the 1st class ones) you are removing from the train do for their 1 hour commute then, stand up?

On a side note, do the 444's still have the buffet?

Yes but it isnt normally used.

 

[Monty]

Brilliant idea, what do the people who would normally be sat in the seats (including the 1st class ones) you are removing from the train do for their 1 hour commute then, stand up?

It also prevents the 450s from being used in a common pool, as much as the residents of Haslemere will hate to hear it the direct line doesn't merit it's own type of dedicated express train neither does the Alton line while we are on the subject of 444s.