Swt 444/450

[Matt Taylor]

And anyway, I think we have cleared up the issue and that it is not a regular working for a 444.

No they were not, and that is why the No450 argument is pointless. They were built to replace the Class 421/411/412 slam doors and to complement the class 442s, they were never built as a replacement for the 442s.

 

[455driver]

It also prevents the 450s from being used in a common pool, as much as the residents of Haslemere will hate to hear it the direct line doesn't merit it's own type of dedicated express train neither does the Alton line while we are on the subject of 444s.

Dont get me started on that self righteous bunch of <woops> on the Alton branch!

 

[Drsatan]

Dont get me started on that self righteous bunch of <woops> on the Alton branch!

Indeed, I hope that the introduction of 456s on Ascot to Guildford services means that 450s can be used on more appropriate services, like Waterloo to Haslemere stoppers.

 

[Monty]

Indeed, I hope that with the introduction of 456s, they can be used on the Ascot to Guildford, Waterloo to Haslemere and Alton line services meaning that the 450s can be used on more appropriate services, like the Lymington branch.

Fixed for you!

 

[455driver]

Fixed for you!

You're in a wicked mood today arent you!

 

[southern442]

Brilliant idea, what do the people who would normally be sat in the seats (including the 1st class ones) you are removing from the train do for their 1 hour commute then, stand up?

Yes but the same could be said if you had a 5 carriage 444 instead of a 8 carriage 450.

We are going round in circles here...

 

[455driver]

Yes but the same could be said if you had a 5 carriage 444 instead of a 8 carriage 450.

We are going round in circles here...

Oh I am sure 'they' will now advocate 15 coach 444s will replace 12 coach 450s, pity they wont fit anywhere.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'm train crew at Fratton and I have never worked a 444 on the Netley line nor have I ever heard of such a thing-specifically as a 444 won't fit either the up or down platforms at Hamble. It's possible of course, but very rare (like a 444 on the Hounslow loop).

You can't have been at Fratton during the Portsmouth resignalling. For a few months there was a 444 rostered on a return Fratton-Southampton trip, complete with Local Door at Hamble. Don't miss that.

 

[cjohnson]

The line is also 100% 444 on Saturdays, but they aren't combined with the Pooles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There aren't any booked 450+444 formations but it does happen, normally when there is a 450 vice 444.

Saw 450+444 pass Earsfield heading towards Waterloo around 8 this morning.

 

[Pumbaa]

Plenty around this morning following disruption from last night. Angry of Alton were very angry indeed...

 

[Monty]

Pity I don't sign the Alton line, I could of done with a giggle.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Just to add to the mass debate above about 444s on the Hamble line, I had one about 2 years ago on a Saturday (reduced timetable IIRC, 1 SWT all stations and 1 SN Swanwick only). I was down there in August this year however when engineering work was on early one Sunday (St Denys-Woolston was shut) and everything I passed was a 450.

Out of interest, are any 450s booked to or ever ended up on a Waterloo-Weymouth? That would be harsh.

 

[Lrd]

Out of interest, are any 450s booked to or ever ended up on a Waterloo-Weymouth? That would be harsh.

Yes, there is at least one, think it is the 1000 off Southampton (0820 off Weymouth).

 

[lj9090]

Out of interest, are any 450s booked to or ever ended up on a Waterloo-Weymouth? That would be harsh.

8 car 450s ran down to Weymouth over the Olympics, running as a 12 out of Waterloo if usually timetabled for a 10 and splitting somewhere. It was quite nice really, they were a little bit emptier than the 444s with all the extra space and no increase in passengers.

 

[Eagle]

Yes, there is at least one, think it is the 1000 off Southampton (0820 off Weymouth).

It's supposed to be a 450/0, but 450/5s with 2+3 seating have been known to turn up.

 

[swt_passenger]

... but 450/5s with 2+3 seating have been known to turn up.

All the 450/5s have mostly 2+3 seating. They only had some 'third seats' removed, they never became 2+2 throughout.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Saw 450+444 pass Earsfield heading towards Waterloo around 8 this morning.

0452 Southampton-Waterloo was a 450/444 this morning, then empties to Woking bay and 0732 Woking-Waterloo which is what you saw. The set then went ECS to Clapham where it has no doubt been reformed.

 

[TEW]

It's supposed to be a 450/0, but 450/5s with 2+3 seating have been known to turn up.

All the 450s have 2+3 seating. 450/5s actually have a lower density seating arrangement to allow for extra standing space.

 

[AndyLandy]

Yes, there is at least one, think it is the 1000 off Southampton (0820 off Weymouth).

I believe this is diagrammed as a single 450 from Weymouth to Southampton, it's joined to another 450 at SOU for the rest of the service to Waterloo.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe this is diagrammed as a single 450 from Weymouth to Southampton, it's joined to another 450 at SOU for the rest of the service to Waterloo.

There are two 450s leave Weymouth in the morning. But what comes up must have gone down...

2W01 0611 from Bournemouth arr 0709 forms 2W26 the 0725 Weymouth to Brockenhurst.

2W05 0540 from Basingstoke arr 0809 forms 1W52 the 0820 Weymouth to Waterloo (strengthened at Southampton as AndyLandy just mentioned)

 

[southern442]

0452 Southampton-Waterloo was a 450/444 this morning, then empties to Woking bay and 0732 Woking-Waterloo which is what you saw. The set then went ECS to Clapham where it has no doubt been reformed.

Is that a stopper or is it fast from Surbiton-Waterloo?

 

[455driver]

Is that a stopper or is it fast from Surbiton-Waterloo?

Fast from Surbiton.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Just to add to the mass debate above about 444s on the Hamble line, I had one about 2 years ago on a Saturday (reduced timetable IIRC, 1 SWT all stations and 1 SN Swanwick only). I was down there in August this year however when engineering work was on early one Sunday (St Denys-Woolston was shut) and everything I passed was a 450.

Out of interest, are any 450s booked to or ever ended up on a Waterloo-Weymouth? That would be harsh.

Of course afurther issue with 444's on this route is, unless it is an out and back trip, then the first class ends up the other end.
The number of times there have been trips from Waterloo to Clapham Yard via the Hounslow Loop, just to turn the unit.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The no450 website says:

Class 450 trains are 20% cheaper to lease than Class 444s (Source: Angel Trains). DfT is reluctant to interfere and under pressure to reduce overcrowding in the London suburban areas. SWT was allegedly invited to increase seats on its network at Franchise renewal in 2006, although no mention is made in the Franchise document. SWT took the opportunity to replace 35% of its popular mainline stock with the low cost suburban trains.

That makes it sound like 35% of the class 444s were taken off lease in 2006. That isn't true is it? Surely all the Desiros are in used and what really happened was a reduction in the size of SWT's fleet by taking the 5WES trains off-lease. Am I right?

The 444s do have a flaw...
End doors creates long dwell.times with very little space to stand in the vestibule

Think about the consequences of the point I made bold. A suburban train like a 450 or 377 may have more space to stand arround the doors, but that space has to come from somewhere. The suburban door arrangment eats furnishable space that could be used to provide additional seats, legroom or tables. If you are travelling long-distance you'd rather have a seat than stand, and you'd rather have legroom than not. And with faster services that stop less long dwell times are less of a problem.

Both door arrangments have their place, but the ratio of suburban to regional express units built since privatisation is slanted much too far towards suburban in my opinion.

 

[swt_passenger]

The no450 website says:
That makes it sound like 35% of the class 444s were taken off lease in 2006. That isn't true is it? Surely all the Desiros are in used and what really happened was a reduction in the size of SWT's fleet by taking the 5WES trains off-lease. Am I right?
.

Not really. The operational fleet size remained basically the same as intended (in terms of numbers of vehicles) because the original plan to take the 458s off lease was rescinded. 30 x 4 car 2+3 seating replaced 24 x 5 car 2+2 seating.

The expected loss of the 458s in 2006 would hardly have been noticed, because they were not used much at that time.

 

[Goatboy]

The no450 website says:
That makes it sound like 35% of the class 444s were taken off lease in 2006. That isn't true is it? Surely all the Desiros are in used and what really happened was a reduction in the size of SWT's fleet by taking the 5WES trains off-lease. Am I right?

I think it's just badly written and refers to the 442's. A train which was perfectly suited to Weymouth to Waterloo and should still be operating there leaving plenty of 444's for the Portsmouth Direct.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not really. The operational fleet size remained basically the same as intended (in terms of numbers of vehicles) because the original plan to take the 458s off lease was rescinded. 30 x 4 car 2+3 seating replaced 24 x 5 car 2+2 seating.

The expected loss of the 458s in 2006 would hardly have been noticed, because they were not used much at that time.

I think it's just badly written and refers to the 442's. A train which was perfectly suited to Weymouth to Waterloo and should still be operating there leaving plenty of 444's for the Portsmouth Direct.

So, they were going to keep the 5-WESes and get rid of the 458s, but then decided to keep the 458s and lose the 5-WESes instead?

 

[455driver]

I think it's just badly written and refers to the 442's. A train which was perfectly suited to Weymouth to Waterloo and should still be operating there leaving plenty of 444's for the Portsmouth Direct.

Repeating myself again (and still not answered by anyone)-

All the 12 coach 450s that run in the peaks are full so if these are replaced by 10 coach 444s were are all the passengers going to go that cannot get a seat (or even get on the train). The 12 coach 450s are a franchise commitment (number of seats etc) so instead of just moaning about the 450s on the route come up with a viable solution!

I wont hold my breath.

 

[southern442]

Repeating myself again (and still not answered by anyone)-

All the 12 coach 450s that run in the peaks are full so if these are replaced by 10 coach 444s were are all the passengers going to go that cannot get a seat (or even get on the train). The 12 coach 450s are a franchise commitment (number of seats etc) so instead of just moaning about the 450s on the route come up with a viable solution!

I wont hold my breath.

Add more fold-down seats on the vestibules? Not the most comforting thing but better than standing.
Also that may help more because a 10-car 444 is only 10m shorter than a 12-car 450.

If all else fails you could add a 6th coach to every other 444...

 

[455driver]

Add more fold-down seats on the vestibules? Not the most comforting thing but better than standing.
Also that may help more because a 10-car 444 is only 10m shorter than a 12-car 450.

So you are proposing putting about 10 fold down seats in each (tiny) vestibule on a 444 to replace the missing seats out of each coach are you?
What about the fact that a 10x444 has 2 less coaches than a 12x450 because

If all else fails you could add a 6th coach to every other 444

Simply isnt viable because a 12x444 formation wouldnt fit in any of the terminus stations (or most other stations for that matter necesitating SDO at nearly every station) as they would be 276 metres long.