SWR possible rolling stock replacement strategy

[Versa274]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-class-458-to-be-retained.215775/

By the time these class 458 come into service on the PDL it will be time to replace the desiro and 159 stock(given how long this is going to take) so why not wait and place a big order for 230 bi-mode units that can go anywhere and cover west of england line!
Then the fleet will be standardised to cover all routes (bar suburban where 701 will operate)

 

[Snow1964]

By the time these class 458 come into service on the PDL it will be time to replace the desiro and 159 stock(given how long this is going to take) so why not wait and place a big order for 230 bi-mode units that can go anywhere and cover west of england line!
Then the fleet will be standardised to cover all routes (bar suburban where 701 will operate)

I think you have the ages wrong
The 159s are 31-34 years old
The 450s are 17-20 years old
The 458s are 20-23 years old

Cannot expect 159s to last as long as 450s and 444s

However you do have a point, if the 159s are replaced by bi-modes, then a top up order of same design, which can be used interchangeably might be better operationally than retaining 458s.

Financially the 458 solution instead of 442s made sense 5 years ago, but not sure if still needed, and converting them again is just wasting money.

 

[Invincible]

Financially the 458 solution instead of 442s made sense 5 years ago, but not sure if still needed, and converting them again is just wasting money.

The 422s refurbishment ran into problems as the wiring and kit on each unit was different.
The 458s refurbishment should be more consistent, provided the 12 (3x4) car units test well on the Portsmouth line?. Might have 10 more years life if the refurbishment is done well?.

Hopefully the DFT will run tests on new trains to eventually tender for a 159 replacement. But the 159s could last for at least another 5 years?
Although the Aventras and hydrogen has had problems, the proposed hydrogen/battery hybrid Derby built Aventras could be tested on the SWR lines as a possible 159 replacement. https://eversholtrail.co.uk/news/al...ks-first-ever-brand-new-hydrogen-train-fleet/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

so why not wait and place a big order for 230 bi-mode units that can go anywhere and cover west of england line!

Think you meant the Stadler 231 FLIRT bi-mods rather than the ex LU 230 bi-mods as a possible 159 replacement?

 

[supervc-10]

No need to replace the Desiros any time soon. They have a *lot* of life left in them. The 159s... not so much. They need a replacement ordering fairly soon. It'll have to be a bi-mode, given decarbonisation efforts, and I think adding some extra units to replace the 458s could make sense, if the leasing rates workout. . But do they really need replacing? They're not that much older than the Desiros.

I cannot see hydrogen as anything other than a boondoggle. It *might* make sense where there's a good source of hydrogen nearby (Did someone say something about Sunderland? Can't remember) but there isn't one between Basingstoke and Exeter. There are currently 2 viable possibilities for Basingstoke to Exeter- either diesel or electrify. Battery tech might work further in the future when the tech has improved, but not now on a route that long. I do think that any bi-mode should have batteries fitted for regen however. *Might* be possible to do the services that start at Salisbury with batteries to Basingstoke, especially if the units have diesels onboard anyway for the longer trips as a 'just in case', or during the winter when the batteries have to also supply power for heat. A lot of complexity to be doing the PDL! I think a DC only variant though would be a good idea- kind of like the 803 vs the 800/802.

The current 458 plan is for 8 or 12 cars on the PDL, right? 10-car trains made of 5 23m long cars (like the 444s) would work well IMO for both PDL and WoE. Fractionally shorter than a 12-car 458, but not much, and would be made up partly by only having one pair of cabs stuck in the middle of the train and fewer joins between cars overall too.

But all of this costs money, in particular upfront capital costs. And we all know that the current government isn't keen on that, even if it saves money in the long run and builds the economy of areas with improved transport links.

I think the '230 bi-mode units' means two hundred and thirty trains, not Class 230s...

 

[Versa274]

No need to replace the Desiros any time soon. They have a *lot* of life left in them. The 159s... not so much. They need a replacement ordering fairly soon. It'll have to be a bi-mode, given decarbonisation efforts, and I think adding some extra units to replace the 458s could make sense, if the leasing rates workout. . But do they really need replacing? They're not that much older than the Desiros.

I cannot see hydrogen as anything other than a boondoggle. It *might* make sense where there's a good source of hydrogen nearby (Did someone say something about Sunderland? Can't remember) but there isn't one between Basingstoke and Exeter. There are currently 2 viable possibilities for Basingstoke to Exeter- either diesel or electrify. Battery tech might work further in the future when the tech has improved, but not now on a route that long. I do think that any bi-mode should have batteries fitted for regen however. *Might* be possible to do the services that start at Salisbury with batteries to Basingstoke, especially if the units have diesels onboard anyway for the longer trips as a 'just in case', or during the winter when the batteries have to also supply power for heat. A lot of complexity to be doing the PDL! I think a DC only variant though would be a good idea- kind of like the 803 vs the 800/802.

The current 458 plan is for 8 or 12 cars on the PDL, right? 10-car trains made of 5 23m long cars (like the 444s) would work well IMO for both PDL and WoE. Fractionally shorter than a 12-car 458, but not much, and would be made up partly by only having one pair of cabs stuck in the middle of the train and fewer joins between cars overall too.

But all of this costs money, in particular upfront capital costs. And we all know that the current government isn't keen on that, even if it saves money in the long run and builds the economy of areas with improved transport links.

I think the '230 bi-mode units' means two hundred and thirty trains, not Class 230s...

Yes definitely i meant a quantity of 230 brand new trains to replace 172 desiros, 28 458 units and 30 159 units but maybe 240 units as i think there are also still 10 158 units also

 

[LUYMun]

By the time these class 458 come into service on the PDL it will be time to replace the desiro and 159 stock(given how long this is going to take) so why not wait and place a big order for 230 bi-mode units that can go anywhere and cover west of england line!
Then the fleet will be standardised to cover all routes (bar suburban where 701 will operate)

It'd make more sense to electrify the West of England lines with overhead wires and order dual-voltage stock to cover these routes (or at least bring the 350s down to SWR)...

 

[nw1]

No need to replace the Desiros any time soon. They have a *lot* of life left in them.

Quite. That would be an absolutely absurd suggestion.

It would be utterly inexplicable to replace 15-to-20-year old trains given the railway is constantly being told to cut costs by the government, resulting in overcrowded trains (see "overcrowding at Easter" thread). Wasting money on replacing the Desiros when services are being cut would be bizarre to put it mildly. They should really be good until around 2040.

The most logical replacement for the 159s (by end of the decade, perhaps) would be a bi-mode which can run on the third rail east of Basingstoke. A bi-mode could also mean they could operate some additional electric services if rail recovers by then and an increase in services is needed.

 

[Prestige15]

By the time these class 458 come into service on the PDL it will be time to replace the desiro and 159 stock(given how long this is going to take) so why not wait and place a big order for 230 bi-mode units that can go anywhere and cover west of england line!
Then the fleet will be standardised to cover all routes (bar suburban where 701 will operate)

Theres no way the Desiros will be replaced anytime soon, Giving how reliable & comfortable they and still modern 15 years on, They will be around for at least another 10 years, Same story goes to the Electrostars, 458 is also hanging on very well even though they were as reliable as a Range Rover when they were new, Im curious how the interior will look and i hope they keep those fantastic seats.

Replacement is pretty much due now for the sprinters, Probably bi trains would probably be the best options. FLIRT anyone?

 

[Goldfish62]

Theres no way the Desiros will be replaced anytime soon, Giving how reliable & comfortable they and still modern 15 years on, They will be around for at least another 10 years, Same story goes to the Electrostars.

Replacement is pretty much due now for the sprinters, Probably bi trains would probably be the best options. FLIRT anyone?

View attachment 132837

Given a nominal 40 year life for electric units I'm hoping for another 20 years of the 444s and 450s. The 458s should be able to do another 15 or so years.

 

[Invincible]

Theres no way the Desiros will be replaced anytime soon, Giving how reliable & comfortable they and still modern 15 years on, They will be around for at least another 10 years, Same story goes to the Electrostars.

Replacement is pretty much due now for the sprinters, Probably bi trains would probably be the best options. FLIRT anyone?

View attachment 132837

The sprinter replacement will have to be an open tender, the speculation most likely to go to a UK build, politically as much built as possible in the UK which might mean on the Aventra production line at Derby?
By then, hopefully the 701 and refurbished 458s will be running in service well!!

 

[jackot]

The sprinter replacement will have to be an open tender, the speculation most likely to go to a UK build, politically as much built as possible in the UK which might mean on the Aventra production line at Derby?
By then, hopefully the 701 and refurbished 458s will be running in service well!!

Theres no way the Desiros will be replaced anytime soon, Giving how reliable & comfortable they and still modern 15 years on, They will be around for at least another 10 years, Same story goes to the Electrostars, 458 is also hanging on very well even though they were as reliable as a Range Rover when they were new, Im curious how the interior will look and i hope they keep those fantastic seats.

Replacement is pretty much due now for the sprinters, Probably bi trains would probably be the best options. FLIRT anyone?

View attachment 132837

I would be surprised if Alstom were awarded another contract for SWR after the shambles that is the 701s, but then again I probably wouldn't... I suppose some fleet commonality would be beneficial (although obviously there is a limit in commonality between an EMU and a Bi Mode) for training and maintenance, but given how long the 701s are taking I know I wouldn't trust Alstom to build an even more complex bi-mode version. A FLIRT would be perfect in most operational senses of the word (and it looks great in their livery), although the same can't likely be said about the price and whole political complexities of neglecting manufacturers with a bigger UK presence - especially considering Derby's order books will likely be drying up by them unless they get an order from SE or from elsewhere. Sorry for going off topic!

Given a nominal 40 year life for electric units I'm hoping for another 20 years of the 444s and 450s. The 458s should be able to do another 15 or so years.

The Desiros are bulletproof by most accounts and I can see them running into the 2040s and maybe even half way through the century. The 458s likely less so being older, not as well screwed together and faced with the increasing threat of corrosion (as seen on some of the other members of the corroding coradia family), but as you say I would think they have 10-15yrs left in them if they don't cheap out on the refurbishment. I just hope they do a more solid job than GWR have done on the turbos, as comfort wise they have great potential - I have always found the interior somewhat less clinical that the desiros.

 

[Prestige15]

I would be surprised if Alstom were awarded another contract for SWR after the shambles that is the 701s, but then again I probably wouldn't... I suppose some fleet commonality would be beneficial (although obviously there is a limit in commonality between an EMU and a Bi Mode) for training and maintenance, but given how long the 701s are taking I know I wouldn't trust Alstom to build an even more complex bi-mode version. A FLIRT would be perfect in most operational senses of the word (and it looks great in their livery), although the same can't likely be said about the price and whole political complexities of neglecting manufacturers with a bigger UK presence - especially considering Derby's order books will likely be drying up by them unless they get an order from SE or from elsewhere. Sorry for going off topic!


The Desiros are bulletproof by most accounts and I can see them running into the 2040s and maybe even half way through the century. The 458s likely less so being older, not as well screwed together and faced with the increasing threat of corrosion (as seen on some of the other members of the corroding coradia family), but as you say I would think they have 10-15yrs left in them if they don't cheap out on the refurbishment. I just hope they do a more solid job than GWR have done on the turbos, as comfort wise they have great potential - I have always found the interior somewhat less clinical that the desiros

The Aventra was designed by Bombardier long before Alstom started taking over and still had a large order list of Aventras by the time Alstom fully took over so i could not blame Alstom for the shambles of the Aventra, The way i see it, Alstom is just finishing off the order list before developing their own trains but Alstom themselves has also had a good reputation on making shamble trains in the past (The Class 180 and 458 says hello) In fact pretty much any new train including FLIRT and IET's had problems. Alstom have been awarded along with Hitachi for the HS2 fleet.

For the 458 I use to nickname them as Land Rovers, They were built in Birmingham and they were unreliable, They have eventually became UK most reliable trains in 2012 and still pretty reliable to this day (The FLIRT you mention has also been awarded a golden spanner on being the most reliable DMU/bi regional trains), Overall SWR made a good call on keeping these sets, They don't think as well as SWT but not bad, If i had my way I would reform them further into 6 cars, Almost being as long as a single class 444 but a mix of 8 and 12 is something i can't complain on.

 

[Goldfish62]

For the 458 I use to nickname them as Land Rovers, They were built in Birmingham and they were unreliable, They have eventually became UK most reliable trains in 2012 and still pretty reliable to this day.

They are SWR's most unreliable train and have been ever since they were extended to five coaches.

 

[Prestige15]

They are SWR's most unreliable train and have been ever since they were extended to five coaches.

'''Following significant work at our Wimbledon depot the trains became some of the most reliable in the UK, winning a number of awards''' - SWR

 

[jackot]

The Aventra was designed by Bombardier long before Alstom started taking over and still had a large order list of Aventras by the time Alstom fully took over so i could not blame Alstom for the shambles of the Aventra, The way i see it, Alstom is just finishing off the order list before developing their own trains but Alstom themselves has also had a good reputation on making shamble trains in the past (The Class 180 and 458 says hello)

I get that they are a Bombardier design, I just refer to them as Alstom as that is the correct name now; the same could be said with the Electrostars and Turbostars, which were an AdTranz design initially. I definitely agree that the issues have mostly been caused by Bombardier rather than the incumbent Alstom though.

In fact pretty much any new train including FLIRT and IET's had problems. Alstom have been awarded along with Hitachi for the HS2 fleet.

Yes the FLIRTs and IETs had some problems, but nowhere near to the extent of the 701s, despite the later being based on an existing UK platform and without the added complexities of being a bi-mode (therefore it should be much less problematic that it is being)

 

[nw1]

The Desiros are bulletproof by most accounts and I can see them running into the 2040s and maybe even half way through the century.

Halfway through the century is impressive, it would mean a 45-year lifespan (not saying it won't happen, in fact I'm all for keeping stock going as long as possible). If that happens it's quite possible they will outlive myself - and as I was born during the (early) CIG and VEP era, it's quite likely my own lifespan will only have covered two generations of "South Western" semi-fast and stopping EMUs (but three for formerly 442-operated express routes).

Contrast that to someone of my age living on the Northampton route, who will have already lived through four generations of EMUs (310s, 317s [briefly], 321s and 350s) and will shortly encounter their fifth generation with the 730s (though perhaps it should be four as the 317 and 321 are of similar age and not-dissimilar design, and the 317s didn't last so long on the route anyway).

 

[swt_passenger]

I can’t see any justification for linking future 159 replacement with Desiro replacement. It gets suggested every few months yet they’re going to be needed on very different timescales, potentially 15 or more years apart.

There seems no practical advantage in trying to roll them up into the same process.

 

[nw1]

I can’t see any justification for linking future 159 replacement with Desiro replacement. It gets suggested every few months yet they’re going to be needed on very different timescales, potentially 15 or more years apart.

There seems no practical advantage in trying to roll them up into the same process.

I agree there - as I said the Desiros should be good until 2040 or longer. Nobody tried to replace the CIGs and VEPs in 1993 when the 159s were themselves new - and just as well really, it would have been a waste replacing 20-25 year old units.

 

[Mikey C]

The 159 replacement will surely be paired more with the replacement of the 158s elsewhere in the country. A Bimode regional express train would be a useful design, whether more Stadlers or from Alstom/CAF/Siemens

 

[SouthWestMax]

The Desiros are absolutely fantastic. They were way ahead of their time when new and still are very respectable inside. For instance they are both quieter and smoother riding inside than Siemen’s latest offering - the Desiro City (in my humble opinion) - much less motor noise going on. I’ve had quite a few of my “non train” friends on 450s and 444s recently and have asked all of them ‘How old do you think this train is?’ All of them said between 2 and 5 years. They couldn’t believe it when I said 15-20 years old. The current refurb done recently has really brought them up inside and with the external repaints they are looking really good. I’d say they’re not even half way into their life - and with a full refit both externally and internally at next refurb I reckon they could happily reach 2050. That would be a proper refit though and would be quite expensive but would it cost less than ordering new units? Who knows.

With regards to the 458s - certainly interesting to see how their refurb is going to shape out. I do agree they have life left in them with this refurb but I must admit I do also think it would be better to have Siemens make a load more 450s and 444s so the SWML towards Bournemouth and Weymouth shares Desiros with the PDL - keeps it all neat. There’s not enough 444s to be honest - and I think a re-config of 450s with 2+2 seating for longer distance services on these lines would complement the 444s nicely - and go down well with the pax. A tidy single type fleet for these two lines with happy pax. Can’t get much better than that. Only thing is would they meet today’s crash worthiness standards if they built new ones the same and of course as far as I know the 444 jigs are no more but I’m sure with a 15+ unit order Siemens would happily remake them. Then again you’ll have 20 year old Desiros and new ones which leaves you with some interesting happenings when the existing fleet reach 40+ years old. Maybe some buffer stop gap filler with the “new” Desiros going on a fair few years longer as the clean sheet replacements come into service. That’s way into the future though!

As for the 158s and 159s. They are getting on a bit for sure. It’ll be a shame to see them go. In an ideal world a bi mode unit would work nicely. Then they can make use of the 3rd rail as far as Basingstoke and use the diesel the rest of the way (unless someone wants to cough up to electrify those lines - but that’s unlikely). A bi mode 444 type thing would probably work nicely with single doors at each end and longer carriages etc.

That would leave you with 3 main rolling stock families on the network.
The 701s (if they ever enter service!) on the metro routes
450s and 444s on the Bournemouth/Weymouth and PDL and a 450 for the Lymington Branch (and another one for the Waterside Line if they reopen and electrify it)
A bi mode type for the services the 158s and 159s are on

This also should leave a fair few spare units which is great for redundancy and if a unit is vandalised (this shouldn’t still be happening but that’s a whole other topic) it can be taken out of service straight away for cleaning with little to no impact on the day’s diagrams but could potentially cause some problems with unit maintenance diagrams. Just keep them under better security!

 

[Anonymous10]

The Desiros are absolutely fantastic. They were way ahead of their time when new and still are very respectable inside. For instance they are both quieter and smoother riding inside than Siemen’s latest offering - the Desiro City (in my humble opinion) - much less motor noise going on. I’ve had quite a few of my “non train” friends on 450s and 444s recently and have asked all of them ‘How old do you think this train is?’ All of them said between 2 and 5 years. They couldn’t believe it when I said 15-20 years old. The current refurb done recently has really brought them up inside and with the external repaints they are looking really good. I’d say they’re not even half way into their life - and with a full refit both externally and internally at next refurb I reckon they could happily reach 2050. That would be a proper refit though and would be quite expensive but would it cost less than ordering new units? Who knows.

With regards to the 458s - certainly interesting to see how their refurb is going to shape out. I do agree they have life left in them with this refurb but I must admit I do also think it would be better to have Siemens make a load more 450s and 444s so the SWML towards Bournemouth and Weymouth shares Desiros with the PDL - keeps it all neat. There’s not enough 444s to be honest - and I think a re-config of 450s with 2+2 seating for longer distance services on these lines would complement the 444s nicely - and go down well with the pax. A tidy single type fleet for these two lines with happy pax. Can’t get much better than that. Only thing is would they meet today’s crash worthiness standards if they built new ones the same and of course as far as I know the 444 jigs are no more but I’m sure with a 15+ unit order Siemens would happily remake them. Then again you’ll have 20 year old Desiros and new ones which leaves you with some interesting happenings when the existing fleet reach 40+ years old. Maybe some buffer stop gap filler with the “new” Desiros going on a fair few years longer as the clean sheet replacements come into service. That’s way into the future though!

As for the 158s and 159s. They are getting on a bit for sure. It’ll be a shame to see them go. In an ideal world a bi mode unit would work nicely. Then they can make use of the 3rd rail as far as Basingstoke and use the diesel the rest of the way (unless someone wants to cough up to electrify those lines - but that’s unlikely). A bi mode 444 type thing would probably work nicely with single doors at each end and longer carriages etc.

That would leave you with 3 main rolling stock families on the network.
The 701s (if they ever enter service!) on the metro routes
450s and 444s on the Bournemouth/Weymouth and PDL and a 450 for the Lymington Branch (and another one for the Waterside Line if they reopen and electrify it)
A bi mode type for the services the 158s and 159s are on

This also should leave a fair few spare units which is great for redundancy and if a unit is vandalised (this shouldn’t still be happening but that’s a whole other topic) it can be taken out of service straight away for cleaning with little to no impact on the day’s diagrams but could potentially cause some problems with unit maintenance diagrams. Just keep them under better security!

Yes they're brilliant trains, having just got back from staying in Southampton and using them for 2 hours each day this weekend. Bit disappointed no usb has been added though

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No manufacturer is going to reopen a production line for a train designed 20 years ago I’m afraid.

 

[jackot]

Only thing is would they meet today’s crash worthiness standards if they built new ones the same and of course as far as I know the 444 jigs are no more but I’m sure with a 15+ unit order Siemens would happily remake them. Then again you’ll have 20 year old Desiros and new ones which leaves you with some interesting happenings when the existing fleet reach 40+ years old. Maybe some buffer stop gap filler with the “new” Desiros going on a fair few years longer as the clean sheet replacements come into service. That’s way into the future though!

No manufacturer is going to reopen a production line for a train designed 20 years ago I’m afraid.

Yes that won't happen sadly. They haven't made that platform for over 9 years now, and so much has moved on since. The only way I could see them getting more Desiros if they got the 350/2s and gave them a little internal refit and some minor modifications with 2+2 seating, but has been discussed alot before.

Agree that the Desiros are fantastic trains though, just goes to show how good of a design they where in their day, and how well a train can look after years of good maintanance (at leaast at SWT) and a nice refurb

 

[SouthWestMax]

Yes agreed they wouldn’t re open a production line sadly. Cascading the 350/2s when they come available would be a good idea though. Of course they will need shoe gear fitted and probably removal of the pantographs as well as the SWR interior refurb and paint input. Maybe there’s some software differences between the two as well which would need altering - at that point are they still 350s or a 450/2 subclass? Either way it would be a great boost to the 450 fleet which usage is really high as 127 units isn’t quite enough! It would also allow them to retire some of the higher mileage 455s and/or allow more 458s to exit service for refurb?

 

[jackot]

Maybe there’s some software differences between the two as well which would need altering - at that point are they still 350s or a 450/2 subclass?

I'm not aware of any huge differences in software; certainly nothing that couldn't be sorted. There were plans originally IIRC for a 450/2 subclass when they were first ordered (450/2s being 5-car units), but that became an order of 4 car units split for both SWT (as 450/0s) and shared between Silverlink & Central Trains (as 350/1s) at the time. The 350/1s had the same software when built as the 450s I believe, so if they are compatible with the /2s then I would imagine they could still work with 450s quite easily.

As far as becoming a 450 subclass, if they had shoes fitted and some modifications I suppose it could be argued, but I'm not sure how necessary it would be. They would likely stay dual voltage so there would be no real need to change them from a 350. SWT never made their ex-TPE 158s a 159 subclass after acquiring them.

It would also allow them to retire some of the higher mileage 455s and/or allow more 458s to exit service for refurb?

It could well do. 450s aren't perfect for metro workings with slow door cycles etc. but they seem to manage fine working the Readings.

 

[43096]

It could well do. 450s aren't perfect for metro workings with slow door cycles etc. but they seem to manage fine working the Readings.

They don’t do fine on the Reading line. They always lose time due to the slow door cycles. Presumably that’s part of the reason why SWR have slowed the trains down (again).

 

[anthony263]

Stadler said they could build a hydrogen powered flirt that be interesting to see.

 

[43096]

Stadler said they could build a hydrogen powered flirt that be interesting to see.

It wouldn't. Hydrogen is an expensive solution that in many cases isn't even very "green" and has issues where it has been implemented. It needs to be killed off as a solution.

 

[RobShipway]

It wouldn't. Hydrogen is an expensive solution that in many cases isn't even very "green" and has issues where it has been implemented. It needs to be killed off as a solution.

What would suggest is used instead? Because depending on the type, even the fluids in batteries cannot be sometime be very green. You could argue that the more standard type of battery which is sulfuric acid and distilled watr can be dangerous towards humans depending on the level of exposure.

My point being that there has to be a point where solutions start and make things better for the environment we live in to ease the effect of global warming, otherwise we may never have a tomorrow.

 

[jackot]

It wouldn't. Hydrogen is an expensive solution that in many cases isn't even very "green" and has issues where it has been implemented. It needs to be killed off as a solution.

And batteries are great for the environment are they? As long as the energy that produces the hydrogen is renewable (which I appreciate it isn't right now, but that doesn't mean it should be 'killed off'), it is the greenest solution out there, far better than the unsustainable lithium mining associated with batteries, which are also not nearly as energy dense and thus too heavy to be put into use in most circumstances. Just like hydrogen has a long way to go before it is completely sustainable and viable, so do batteries.

I'm sorry, but the idea that hydrogen as a solution needs to be completely killed off is complete rubbish. It's still in its' infancy and right now and if it can be implemented right it may be our chance to decarbonise the railways, alongside aviation and even container ships.

Would it be a reasonable assumption to believe that a full-on hydrogen train could be built tomorrow for SWR - of course it wouldn't. But would it be reasonable to hope that in some years time we may be looking towards it as a solution, yes.

My point being that there has to be a point where solutions start and make things better for the environment we live in to ease the effect of global warming, otherwise we may never have a tomorrow.

Exactly. Just ruling out an entire technology which is still very much in its' infancy is simply ridiculous, especially when there are almost no alternatives.