SWR Class 458 to be retained

[TrainLifeGB]

8536 hand back complete then donated parts to other units, sharing a road with 8403 and 8535. Awaits a tow away now.

Would 8536 be repairable? Just theoretically. I know that 8529-8536 are all being scrapped for parts eventually.

 

[adc82140]

So in cases like this, I presume the unit is handed back to the Rosco by SWR complete, and it's the Rosco that makes the decision to rob it for parts?

 

[TrainLifeGB]

So in cases like this, I presume the unit is handed back to the Rosco by SWR complete, and it's the Rosco that makes the decision to rob it for parts?

More or less, yeah. As 458403 was broken and 8536 was just sat at Wimbledon off-lease, it was the closest source of parts. And the easiest. 8530 is still on lease and being fixed up. Portorbrook seemingly gave SWR the thumbs up to use 8536 as a part donor. However, 8536 is repairable i believe. Not that it'll be used ever again.

 

[WarrenTManager]

So in cases like this, I presume the unit is handed back to the Rosco by SWR complete, and it's the Rosco that makes the decision to rob it for parts?

Yes. Handback is agreed and then the unit is off the TOCs books completely. TOC asks nicely for support with spares, ROSCO kindly obliges. There will be records of what was taken off in the need for traceability but would help if reactivation was required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2025 ==

Would 8536 be repairable? Just theoretically. I know that 8529-8536 are all being scrapped for parts eventually.

Theoretically yes. It would need all the bits putting back, a C6 overhaul for starters. The C4 isn’t far off either.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Theoretically yes. It would need all the bits putting back, a C6 overhaul for starters. The C4 isn’t far off either.

All judged against the bigger picture (701 roll out and associated stock availability in essence), as in, is it worth doing? Likely not.

 

[TrainLifeGB]

All judged against the bigger picture (701 roll out and associated stock availability in essence), as in, is it worth doing? Likely not.

No, it'll clearly never happen. Nor will they retain the 458/4s. A massive waste of money for a fleet that would have been better as 5 car units. 36 458s will eventually be stored with the future of going to Newport most likely.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No, it'll clearly never happen. Nor will they retain the 458/4s. A massive waste of money for a fleet that would have been better as 5 car units. 36 458s will eventually be stored with the future of going to Newport most likely.

I agree that the 458/5s won’t see service again, but asserting that the 458/4s will be scrapped is unfounded and based on nothing but pure assumption.

 

[TrainLifeGB]

I agree that the 458/5s won’t see service again, but asserting that the 458/4s will be scrapped is unfounded and based on nothing but pure assumption.

But what do they need them for? The PDL is a no-no as they deem them surplus to longer distance services. Once all 90 701s are in service and with their desiros, they'll have more trains then needed, so, 458/4s would clearly go as having a few 450s and a few 458/4s rather then JUST 458/4s is a rather peculiar choice. 458/4s are marked as a "Temporary Stopgap." If not for ongoing issues with the 701s, they'd have gone back to Long Marston ages ago.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

No, it'll clearly never happen

Agree. Only said with tongue in cheek!

Nor will they retain the 458/4s. A massive waste of money for a fleet that would have been better as 5 car units. 36 458s will eventually be stored with the future of going to Newport most likely.

Wouldn't be surprised, only time will tell. With the collapse of the proposed enhanced timetable way back just after SWR took over, the need for the additional fleet (442 originally, and 458 subsequently to replace former in theory) evaporated. As has been pointed out countless times, the (electric) service timetable that existed at the point of handover from SWT to SWR could be managed today/future with 701's and Desiro's alone in their proposed/present (respective) numbers.
My belief, based on gut feeling alone, is that the 458's in their new guise will remain until the full 701 rollout is in place, and then a decision will be made on their future. In crew knowledge (hence also rostering), and spare component terms, they are far less flexible than the Desiro fleet or the 701 (as proposed).
The rebuild from 5 back to 4 car format was (I presume?) designed around the theory of them being allocated to the PDL to replace the failed 442 plan, and the old 2+2 v 2+3 seating arrangement (on 1Pxx only it must be stressed) and so very likely the contracts for that work at Widnes were all in place etc, and so the work went ahead, despite things having changed on the ground by then (dropping of the enhanced TT plans) - if politics and ensuring promised employment went ahead as planned, came in to this equation, who knows?
Obviously they (4 car 458s) have come in handy to keep things moving whilst the 701 issues are resolved.

PS: My BOLD. Apologies - just noticed you've also covered some of this on another related thread!

 

[43096]

Agree. Only said with tongue in cheek!

Wouldn't be surprised, only time will tell. With the collapse of the proposed enhanced timetable way back just after SWR took over, the need for the additional fleet (442 originally, and 458 subsequently to replace former in theory) evaporated. As has been pointed out countless times, the (electric) service timetable that existed at the point of handover from SWT to SWR could be managed today/future with 701's and Desiro's alone in their proposed/present (respective) numbers.
My belief, based on gut feeling alone, is that the 458's in their new guise will remain until the full 701 rollout is in place, and then a decision will be made on their future. In crew knowledge (hence also rostering), and spare component terms, they are far less flexible than the Desiro fleet or the 701 (as proposed).
The rebuild from 5 back to 4 car format was (I presume?) designed around the theory of them being allocated to the PDL to replace the failed 442 plan, and the old 2+2 v 2+3 seating arrangement (on 1Pxx only it must be stressed) and so very likely the contracts for that work at Widnes were all in place etc, and so the work went ahead, despite things having changed on the ground by then (dropping of the enhanced TT plans) - if politics and ensuring promised employment went ahead as planned, came in to this equation, who knows?
Obviously they (4 car 458s) have come in handy to keep things moving whilst the 701 issues are resolved.

They'd have been better retaining the 458s as 5-cars and keeping them on a defined route (Reading) and binning off the 5-car 701s as a message to Bombardier (specifically) and the train manufacturing industry more generally than such shoddy performance would have real consequences.

 

[mansonlo49]

They'd have been better retaining the 458s as 5-cars and keeping them on a defined route (Reading) and binning off the 5-car 701s as a message to Bombardier (specifically) and the train manufacturing industry more generally than such shoddy performance would have real consequences.

Bin the 5 car 701??

 

[Bigfoot]

They'd have been better retaining the 458s as 5-cars and keeping them on a defined route (Reading) and binning off the 5-car 701s as a message to Bombardier (specifically) and the train manufacturing industry more generally than such shoddy performance would have real consequences.

Sending a message. It's not a dispute with a neighbour over a fence .

Remember that ASLEF have only given them a short return to service as a 4 car as a stop gap to aid the 701 introduction.

Plus they are getting on a bit (almost 30), there will be the usual 'ohh rolling stock should be kept forever and ever, I don't like the new stuff' replies but the industry is changing, and one uniform suburban fleet is much more efficient in many respects.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

They'd have been better retaining the 458s as 5-cars and keeping them on a defined route (Reading) and binning off the 5-car 701s as a message to Bombardier (specifically) and the train manufacturing industry more generally than such shoddy performance would have real consequences.

Who knows? It's all water under the bridge now, but that said, 5 car units (if we are talking 5 or 10 as the only options) will always be needed in some quantity, for certain locations/certain engineering work scenarios, and to maximise stabling capacity at some locations.

F/MTR (SWR) came in with a big bang, with ideas to change the world (well, the old L&SWR patch ), albeit they were the only option in the wings at the time as things turned out. As Bigfoot has just commented, a uniform suburban fleet, particularly from an operational/planning/maintenance basis, is a no brainer, and was SWR's one initiative that made perfect sense (to me). It also allowed for those services that had remained 8 car (due to financial restrictions) after SWT's 10 car plan, to also become 10 car.

 

[TrainLifeGB]

Bin the 5 car 701??

The 701/5s have the old cabs which drivers hate, so they need to go back to Alstom. 701524 is away doing just that. Coupling issues, water leak issues, etc are needing to be fixed. However, with all 60 701/0s and the desiros, they'll have more then enough rolling stock to replace the 455s and 458/5s(and maybe the 458/4s).

 

[Wolfie]

But what do they need them for? The PDL is a no-no as they deem them surplus to longer distance services. Once all 90 701s are in service and with their desiros, they'll have more trains then needed, so, 458/4s would clearly go as having a few 450s and a few 458/4s rather then JUST 458/4s is a rather peculiar choice. 458/4s are marked as a "Temporary Stopgap." If not for ongoing issues with the 701s, they'd have gone back to Long Marston ages ago.

If they are in better shape than Networkers....

 

[Minstral25]

Possibly one hope for retention of the 458/4's could be if 30ish 450's are converted to battery BEMU's to replace 158/9 on West of England services, meaning there will be a shortfall in 450 fleet to be made up which the 458's could fulfil. But otherwise, I struggle to see a need for them once 701's are fully rolled out.

 

[ctrh136]

Have the last 458/5s been withdrawn now? Looks like the one diagram they were on is a 458/4 since the summer timetable came in

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Possibly one hope for retention of the 458/4's could be if 30ish 450's are converted to battery BEMU's to replace 158/9 on West of England services,

I've heard talk of this on here (but only here), having heard/seen nothing official or unofficial even from old former colleagues, some of whom have a far greater interest in such matters than I. That's not to say there isn't a quiet, behind the scene, initial project group working on same of course, that's how future plans come to the fore in due course, but it would be very early days if that is the case. But even if so, I would wager a conversion of a % of 450's would only be one of a number of scenarios being looked at for the eventual displacement of 158/9 on that route. Nothing will be set in stone at this point in time.
This is a watch this space with interest me thinks!

 

[swr444]

Have the last 458/5s been withdrawn now? Looks like the one diagram they were on is a 458/4 since the summer timetable came in

No, this was asked less than a week ago. They're working a shepperton diagram this week.

Realtime Trains | 1411 Shepperton to London Waterloo | 28/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 1411 departure from Shepperton to London Waterloo on 28/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==

I've heard talk of this on here (but only here), having heard/seen nothing official or unofficial even from old former colleagues, some of whom have a far greater interest in such matters than I. That's not to say there isn't a quiet, behind the scene, initial project group working on same of course, that's how future plans come to the fore in due course, but it would be very early days if that is the case. But even if so, I would wager a conversion of a % of 450's would only be one of a number of scenarios being looked at for the eventual displacement of 158/9 on that route. Nothing will be set in stone at this point in time.
This is a watch this space with interest me thinks!

looks like the DfT is more keen in ordering a brand new fleet

https://x.com/philatrail/status/1945423791624016286

"DfT is talking with GWR, SWR and Chiltern about a combined order for trains to replace their ageing diesel fleets rather than having each pursue its own."

 

[WarrenTManager]

530 is in the bogie drop at Wimbledon for two replacement wheelsets.

 

[TrainLifeGB]

530 is in the bogie drop at Wimbledon for two replacement wheelsets.

Surprising it wasn't sent off-lease as they said they didn't want to continue using a 458/5 if it had ran out of miles or came up to an expensive refurbishment or C4.

 

[Boalbads]

530 is in the bogie drop at Wimbledon for two replacement wheelsets.

Ooh - I might try go on it when/if it re-enters service.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Surprising it wasn't sent off-lease as they said they didn't want to continue using a 458/5 if it had ran out of miles or came up to an expensive refurbishment or C4.

It’s got around 200,000 left in it I think to C4. Worth doing.

 

[Driver@swt]

The 701/5s have the old cabs which drivers hate, so they need to go back to Alstom. 701524 is away doing just that. Coupling issues, water leak issues, etc are needing to be fixed. However, with all 60 701/0s and the desiros, they'll have more then enough rolling stock to replace the 455s and 458/5s(and maybe the 458/4s).

Utter made up Drivel. The 701/5s have the same cab as the 701/0s. They do not need to go back to Alstom. They are further back in the up lift programme as the priority is getting the 10 cars in service first.
There are no coupling issues.

 

[Bikeman78]

Sending a message. It's not a dispute with a neighbour over a fence .

Remember that ASLEF have only given them a short return to service as a 4 car as a stop gap to aid the 701 introduction.

Plus they are getting on a bit (almost 30), there will be the usual 'ohh rolling stock should be kept forever and ever, I don't like the new stuff' replies but the industry is changing, and one uniform suburban fleet is much more efficient in many respects.

When did Reading get reclassified as suburban? It always used to be mainline units, apart from sporadic use of class 455. I agree that a uniform metro fleet would be better. When the service was increased in the late 1990s/early 2000s, there weren't enough 455s to cover everything anymore, hence the use of slam door units, and more recently class 450 and 458 on metro routes.

I've started a new thread to discuss class 458 history: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-458-history.290101/

 

[Goldfish62]

When did Reading get reclassified as suburban? It always used to be mainline units, apart from sporadic use of class 455.

About 28 years ago when SWT stuck 455s on the route for the first time. Or 21 years ago in the 2004 timetable recast when all fast services were removed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

458 529 + 458 533 are out on a Weybridge diagram today, seems to be all day.

 

[TrainLifeGB]

458 529 + 458 533 are out on a Weybridge diagram today, seems to be all day.

You mean a Windsor & Eton Riverside diagram. They aren't on the Weybridge line.

 

[nick parish]

About 28 years ago when SWT stuck 455s on the route for the first time. Or 21 years ago in the 2004 timetable recast when all fast services were removed.

I think the reason, 28 years ago, was that some passengers were anxious about safety on late evening trains (which were then the old slam door trains), and so all trains after about 9pm opn the line were convreted to 455 - meaning people could see the whole carriage when boarding, and if they werent happy, move to another one.

 

[ollie2391]

458 529 + 458 533 are out on a Weybridge diagram today, seems to be all day.

Seems to be on a windsor diagram now