SWR Class 458 to be retained

[444045]

There’s a gauging restriction between the down fast and down slow lines at Pirbright, which necessitates all 458/4 Wimbledon to Bournemouth moves running as an ‘X’ headcode (exceptional load). This doesn’t apply to the up lines, so the return moves can use the usual pathway.

Thank you for your reply with the answer,
do appreciate your help.

Ken - 444045

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I caught a 458/5 this morning as part of a short formed Reading service . It's been a while since I travelled on one. It was quite nostalgic to feel the hesitation as it tried to pull away from Twickenham. This behaviour appears to have been cured by the traction upgrade in the 458/4s

 

[nctd2306]

I caught a 458/5 this morning as part of a short formed Reading service . It's been a while since I travelled on one. It was quite nostalgic to feel the hesitation as it tried to pull away from Twickenham. This behaviour appears to have been cured by the traction upgrade in the 458/4s

Sadly that 5 car is booked like that. Usually it gets swapped out for an 8-458 from 2C37 onwards, however that is being covered by a 4-455 today...
I'm glad I'm not the only one though who's noticed that the /4s seem to pull away much more smoothly than before, I've seen people get quite alarmed the the big bang and jolt that often occurred with a 458/5 departure!

 

[NSEWonderer]

Sadly that 5 car is booked like that. Usually it gets swapped out for an 8-458 from 2C37 onwards, however that is being covered by a 4-455 today...
I'm glad I'm not the only one though who's noticed that the /4s seem to pull away much more smoothly than before, I've seen people get quite alarmed the the big bang and jolt that often occurred with a 458/5 departure!

Yeah 458s have always been relatively underpowered but it was much more noticeable with the 5 cars. Dammed if you also get traction package out and then its a slow painful crawl. 458/4s returned back to the standard configuration of the original trains, I do wish they kept them at 75mph gearing tho as they'd have seen a bit more acceleration out as even on the /4s a lack of traction package due to isolations can be quite a crawl.

 

[WimFit]

Yeah 458s have always been relatively underpowered but it was much more noticeable with the 5 cars. Dammed if you also get traction package out and then its a slow painful crawl. 458/4s returned back to the standard configuration of the original trains, I do wish they kept them at 75mph gearing tho as they'd have seen a bit more acceleration out as even on the /4s a lack of traction package due to isolations can be quite a crawl.

Hindsight is a great thing. They weren’t intended to be ran on their current routes, hence the 100mph gearing. When we carried out traction testing post conversion they still managed 85mph uphill with 1 x traction deliberately isolated.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Hindsight is a great thing. They weren’t intended to be ran on their current routes, hence the 100mph gearing. When we carried out traction testing post conversion they still managed 85mph uphill with 1 x traction deliberately isolated.

Yeah, well I do wonder if they will eventually go to Portsmouth side after all. That I doubt will be looked at till 701s are pretty much firm runners on the suburbans.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yeah, well I do wonder if they will eventually go to Portsmouth side after all. That I doubt will be looked at till 701s are pretty much firm runners on the suburbans.

I reckon it’s likely with the 450 fleet reduced in size from the upcoming lease date.

 

[Transilien]

I reckon it’s likely with the 450 fleet reduced in size from the upcoming lease date.

Don’t you mean the 455 fleet?

 

[Class15]

Don’t you mean the 455 fleet?

No, the 455s are all going. Some 450s may be sacrificed due to higher leasing costs than 458s.

 

[Transilien]

No, the 455s are all going. Some 450s may be sacrificed due to higher leasing costs than 458s.

That’s crazy. The 450s are much better units than the 458s.

 

[greaterwest]

I reckon it’s likely with the 450 fleet reduced in size from the upcoming lease date.

Is there somewhere I can read more about this please?

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

That’s crazy. The 450s are much better units than the 458s.

Purely from a passenger comfort view I beg to differ. The upgraded 458s are much more comfortable outside the peak.

 

[DelW]

Is there somewhere I can read more about this please?

I don't think there's anything definite in the public domain, but the original long lease on the Desiros is coming to an end soon. It will be up to the now GBR/SWR management to decide which if any fleets will be reduced, but assuming that all the 701s eventually enter service, there will be more stock available than the current timetable needs, even after the 455s have left.

Purely from a passenger comfort view I beg to differ. The upgraded 458s are much more comfortable outside the peak.

Agreed, the use of 450s (with their narrow 3+2 seating) on Portsmouth services has been a source of complaints for two decades now.

 

[moley]

I expect the full 450 fleet to stay. The longer term plan is still to try and convert a proportion to battery-emu. Whether a portion are taking to storage in the meantime is an interesting question. If they go off lease then there is the chance they won’t be available when they want them.

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't think there's anything definite in the public domain, but the original long lease on the Desiros is coming to an end soon. It will be up to the now GBR/SWR management to decide which if any fleets will be reduced, but assuming that all the 701s eventually enter service, there will be more stock available than the current timetable needs, even after the 455s have left.

Given that ever since introduction into service there has been a significant allocation of 450s on the Windsor lines and that these will eventually be displaced by 701s I would think there'll easily be a surplus of 450s in due course.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Given that ever since introduction into service there has been a significant allocation of 450s on the Windsor lines and that these will eventually be displaced by 701s I would think there'll easily be a surplus of 450s in due course.

Perhaps so. But why on this earth would a TOC do away with units (450's) that are both newer and have a far wider/beneficial overall maintenance and operational (area and crew) regime due to number of units (127), resulting in better fleet reliability, and in 12 car format have a far wider usage availability (terminal) platform wise at (eg) both Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo, than any older stock type (458's in particular in 12 car format) that also require additional maintenance and crew knowledge/training/upkeep/spares etc.

Without further substantial infrastructure expense (signalling and platform wise) at both Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo, I would wager that the very limited infrastructure at those locations that can (in todays world) accept 12 car 458 formations, will be deemed unworkable in relation to any planned timetable that is required to be both reliable day in-day out, with the necessary resilience that those at the top would wish to be part of that plan.

Yes, there are (stock) leasing costs to take account of, but as above, these will only form one part of the overall considerations. I believe that those who still wish for a 2 + 2 seating on all 1Pxx services, are still in cloud cuckoo land. The 2Pxx services (post 2004) were always planned/intended for largely 450 operation, and will likely remain so.

 

[43096]

Perhaps so. But why on this earth would a TOC do away with units (450's) that are both newer and have a far wider/beneficial overall maintenance and operational (area and crew) regime due to number of units (127), resulting in better fleet reliability, and in 12 car format have a far wider usage availability (terminal) platform wise at (eg) both Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo, than any older stock type (458's in particular in 12 car format) that also require additional maintenance and crew knowledge/training/upkeep/spares etc.

Because a) the 458s are cheaper to lease and b) the lease end on the 450s is (was?) before the 458s. There’s a clear cost saving to be had.

 

[DelW]

Yes, there are (stock) leasing costs to take account of, but as above, these will only form one part of the overall considerations. I believe that those who still wish for a 2 + 2 seating on all 1Pxx services, are still in cloud cuckoo land. The 2Pxx services (post 2004) were always planned/intended for largely 450 operation, and will likely remain so.

You may well be right, and SWR have given no indication that they're considering putting the 458/4s onto the Portsmouth services, despite having converted them specifically for that purpose.

But one significant change from the 2004-onwards plan, is that since 2020 there's only one semifast Portsmouth service per hour via the Direct off-peak. The second hourly train (stopper) leaves Waterloo only 15 minutes after the previous 1P, and reaches Pompey only around 15 minutes before the next one, making it of limited use for through journeys. One-and-a-bit tph, partly using suburban stock, and taking 90 minutes or two hours for 90 miles, is really a very poor service for a city the size of Portsmouth.

 

[Theburritoz]

Don't forget the 2 other direct routes which both take longer

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Don't forget the 2 other direct routes which both take longer

DelW has some understanding of what was in place in 2004/2007 etc, and I respect his views, even if (we) in the industry could not apply same at the time thanks to DfT etc., but please be more specific if you wish us to reply more accurately. Yes, we ran via EH (Tango's) etc, but we only hand so many units to play with at certain times.
Be more precise and I am sure someone will try to answer your question?

 

[jwhite9185]

I’ve noticed 458’s operating the Sunday Waterloo-Woking stopper for the past couple of weeks now, in place of the 450.

The unit currently sat waiting at Platform 3 at Woking is currently sporting a somewhat non standard paint job

 

[Invincible]

From realtimetrains 458415 + 458404, what was different about the paint job?

 

[WimFit]

From realtimetrains 458415 + 458404, what was different about the paint job?

Most likely external graffiti.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

As I no longer commute at busy times I would be more than happy if they stay on the Windsor lines

 

[hwl]

I expect the full 450 fleet to stay. The longer term plan is still to try and convert a proportion to battery-emu. Whether a portion are taking to storage in the meantime is an interesting question. If they go off lease then there is the chance they won’t be available when they want them.

Agreed - some 450 are likely to get BEMU conversions, the question is if any / some / all 458s needs to back fill the 450 converted to BEMU.

There are 109 vehicles in the SWR DMU fleet (all 23m)
11x 2car and 29x 3 car
It is unclear quite what the operating pattern would be* but replacing like for like (albeit 23m to 20m vehicles with reduction in seating) would be 21.5% of the 450 fleet converted, which happens to be very similar to the number of 458s units being retained (just 1 unit less).

*e.g. 12 car or 8car Waterloo - Salisbury, 4car West of Salisbury and on the other routes

(Mods - please note there is plenty of official SWR and other partners organisation (Angel, Siemens and NR) paperwork on the 450 BEMU plan)

 

[Kite159]

..

Agreed - some 450 are likely to get BEMU conversions, the question is if any / some / all 458s needs to back fill the 450 converted to BEMU.

There are 109 vehicles in the SWR DMU fleet (all 23m)
11x 2car and 29x 3 car
It is unclear quite what the operating pattern would be* but replacing like for like (albeit 23m to 20m vehicles with reduction in seating) would be 21.5% of the 450 fleet converted, which happens to be very similar to the number of 458s units being retained (just 1 unit less).

*e.g. 12 car or 8car Waterloo - Salisbury, 4car West of Salisbury and on the other routes

(Mods - please note there is plenty of official SWR and other partners organisation (Angel, Siemens and NR) paperwork on the 450 BEMU plan)

Only 10 158s these days (158889 got 'stolen' by East Midlands )

The battery powered 450s will simply die a death, or get shifted when GBR comes in with GBR (SWR) taking over the North Downs Line from GBR (GWR) which will be less taxing and has the benefit of already being 3rd rail in parts to allow for recharging.

 

[moley]

Logically, it would be sensible for the units to work the Salisbury stoppers, and possibly the Salisbury - Romsey rounders. This minimises their time off the juice to about 50% of each journey and tests the concept in service. 4 cars on the rounders and 8 cars on the stoppers would be nice capacity increases. It also removes the failure risk on the single track sections beyond Salisbury.

This would allow for strengthening on the WoE and later a wider pool of units when you start phasing out the fleet.

 

[jwhite9185]

Most likely external graffiti.

Correct

 

[Goldfish62]

These old notices, which are at least a couple of decades out of date and advertise long-defunct organisations, somehow manage to survive on the 458/4s. The photo is of a passenger information notice which as well as being a South West Trains notice, advises passengers to contact "London Transport Users Committee" and "Rail Passengers Committee Southern England". Good luck with that!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Interesting to see 458.529 + 533 still in service. Surely their time must be up soon...