Surprise Debt Recovery and Prosecution Letter

[Watershed]

Maybe they bought an anytime ticket because they wanted to travel at any time?

The fact that they wanted to return in the evening, when the Off-Peak ticket wouldn't be valid for this particular journey, means that this is not as suspicious as it might seem at first glance.

 

[RPI]

The fact that they wanted to return in the evening, when the Off-Peak ticket wouldn't be valid for this particular journey, means that this is not as suspicious as it might seem at first glance.

Agreed, unless a later outward train was selected. Why would you select a later outward train, you can select an Anytime Day Return for any train.

I don't believe the OP has stated which outward train they had selected (if they have then apologies, i did skim back)

 

[AlterEgo]

Ultimately we don’t know which train the OP selected. They’ve declined to say, and indicated they wish to settle in direct response to a suggestion they should simply push back and say “no, nobody talked to me at all, here is the difference in fares as per the Conditions, bye”. They have not returned since.

So much speculation happens here based on shall we diplomatically say, “incomplete” accounts of what happened.

 

[island]

Ultimately we don’t know which train the OP selected. They’ve declined to say, and indicated they wish to settle in direct response to a suggestion they should simply push back and say “no, nobody talked to me at all, here is the difference in fares as per the Conditions, bye”. They have not returned since.

So much speculation happens here based on shall we diplomatically say, “incomplete” accounts of what happened.

Indeed. I suspect the OP won't be back to further enlighten us either.

 

[Haywain]

I don't believe the OP has stated which outward train they had selected (if they have then apologies, i did skim back)

The OP has been uncommonly reluctant to answer this crucial question.

 

[Cowley]

I think unless we get any further information from @Jammeeget it’s probably best to close this for now.
@Jammeeget can contact us via the report function if they want to add anything else.

Thanks as always for your input everyone.

 

[Jammeeget]

Hi all, got another reply today but this time in the form of a letter pdf from Northern’s Revenue Enforcement Delivery Manager.

The letter says that I can pay for the fare of £5.70 plus an administrative payment of £90. So I am very pleased with this outcome. Thank you everyone for their help with this. I have now paid this.

Also, I apologise for going “AWOL” so to speak. I was waiting for their response before giving any more information here. I didn’t want to say anything that would affect their decision if they do in fact read the thread.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

Great news. In terms of getting a discounted ticket in the morning, I think the Travelmaster for £120.40 a month could be of interest especially if you want to use buses as well.

 

[Jammeeget]

Great news. In terms of getting a discounted ticket in the morning, I think the Travelmaster for £120.40 a month could be of interest especially if you want to use buses as well.

Thank you, I have been in contact with northern’s Twitter in regards to getting a season ticket and the relevant terms of it. However I do not travel enough on the train during the week to justify the cost. So am going to stick with purchasing advance tickets for the specific trains that I travel on, and NOT an anytime day return using the railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not a good result if the original post was wholly truthful in content. But a good result if indeed an attempt to evade the fare could be evidenced by Northern.

 

[Jammeeget]

Not a good result if the original post was wholly truthful in content. But a good result if indeed an attempt to evade the fare could be evidenced by Northern.

I am not sure what you mean. Which part of the original post do you think isn’t truthful?

 

[AlterEgo]

I am not sure what you mean. Which part of the original post do you think isn’t truthful?

You mean to say you clicked on a train leaving at 7:02am and it offered you the Railcard discount? Why on earth would you settle in that case? Open and shut case if you got an itinerary, no offence was committed.

 

[Jammeeget]

You mean to say you clicked on a train leaving at 7:02am and it offered you the Railcard discount? Why on earth would you settle in that case? Open and shut case if you got an itinerary, no offence was committed.

I didn’t once say on this thread which train I selected on the app. I did indeed select a later train so it would give me the discount, thinking that because it then gave me an “anytime day return” that it was a valid ticket for all trains on the day, and as I mentioned conductors never brought it up to me that it wasn’t.

It was only after some members here commented that there are rules regarding the use of a railcard before 10am that I realised it was indeed an invalid ticket for that early train, and that I was 100% in the wrong, albeit unknowingly.

Which is why in my eyes this is a good result, because I did hold an invalid ticket, and Northern could have absolutely taken me to court for boarding a train without an invalid ticket, but instead they offered me a settlement.

 

[Watershed]

I didn’t once say on this thread which train I selected on the app. I did indeed select a later train so it would give me the discount, thinking that because it then gave me an “anytime day return” that it was a valid ticket for all trains on the day, and as I mentioned conductors never brought it up to me that it wasn’t.

It was only after some members here commented that there are rules regarding the use of a railcard before 10am that I realised it was indeed an invalid ticket for that early train, and that I was 100% in the wrong, albeit unknowingly.

Which is why in my eyes this is a good result, because I did hold an invalid ticket, and Northern could have absolutely taken me to court for boarding a train without an invalid ticket, but instead they offered me a settlement.

You didn't hold a ticket which was invalid (for the purposes of Byelaw 18), but as an excess was payable, you hadn't paid your correct fare.

So, with multiple instances of this happening, it would have been a question of whether Northern could have shown 'intent to avoid payment' as required under RoRA.

In the circumstances, I think taking a settlement was probably the least worst option.

 

[AlterEgo]

I did indeed select a later train so it would give me the discount, thinking that because it then gave me an “anytime day return” that it was a valid ticket for all trains on the day, and as I mentioned conductors never brought it up to me that it wasn’t.

Yes, as you know, that is - tentatively at least - evading the fare, and almost every piece of advice given as a result, including a response I took time out to draft for you based on the information you gave, was a waste of everyone's time.

You didn't hold a ticket which was invalid (for the purposes of Byelaw 18), but as an excess was payable, you hadn't paid your correct fare.

So, with multiple instances of this happening, it would have been a question of whether Northern could have shown 'intent to avoid payment' as required under RoRA.

In the circumstances, I think taking a settlement was probably the least worst option.

I agree.

 

[WesternLancer]

I did indeed select a later train so it would give me the discount, thinking that because it then gave me an “anytime day return” that it was a valid ticket for all trains on the day, and as I mentioned conductors never brought it up to me that it wasn’t.

FWIW I recall speculating that this is what had happened, and I was personally of the view that the assumption you made was not an unreasonable one for someone who is not an expert on railway tickets (and most passengers are not such experts) to have made.

Given that this has cost you, I think you have a reasonable offer from them which allows you to 'walk away' with a clear conscience as it were.

 

[Jammeeget]

In the circumstances, I think taking a settlement was probably the least worst option.

Out of curiosity, what other options do you think they could have given me in this situation?

Yes, as you know, that is - tentatively at least - evading the fare, and almost every piece of advice given as a result, including a response I took time out to draft for you based on the information you gave, was a waste of everyone's time.

I personally did not see it as fare evasion, but I apologise to you - and to anyone else - whose time I have wasted.

FWIW I recall speculating that this is what had happened, and I was personally of the view that the assumption you made was not an unreasonable one for someone who is not an expert on railway tickets (and most passengers are not such experts) to have made.

Given that this has cost you, I think you have a reasonable offer from them which allows you to 'walk away' with a clear conscience as it were.

Yes, I am, in no sense of the word, an expert on railway tickets. However, this incident has been a learning experience for me and I do now know a lot more about them, and the relevant terms and conditions, bylaws etc. than I did.

And I agree, I can walk away with a clear conscience and free from worry - I received the initial contact a few days before my final university exam of the year so this did not help with the nerves!

 

[Watershed]

Out of curiosity, what other options do you think they could have given me in this situation?

Well they may have offered you the chance to simply pay the excesses owed. Although in this particular case, that may actually have been more than £95.70!

Alternatively they could have proceeded to a prosecution. Upon which it would have been down to you to decide whether to plead guilty or not guilty.

 

[30907]

I personally did not see it as fare evasion, but I apologise to you - and to anyone else - whose time I have wasted.

We are here to help, but "coming clean" from the beginning is best.

Yes, I am, in no sense of the word, an expert on railway tickets. However, this incident has been a learning experience for me and I do now know a lot more about them, and the relevant terms and conditions, bylaws etc. than I did.

In particular, you now know that ticket apps are generally set up to stop you unintentionally committing an offence.

And I agree, I can walk away with a clear conscience and free from worry

...which is good news.

 

[MrJeeves]

Agreed, although there are some edge cases where a full single in one direction plus a discounted single in the other is cheaper than an undiscounted return.

E.g., Burgess Hill to Brighton (Anytime Single) then Brighton to Burgess Hill (Off-peak 16-25 single).