Surprise Debt Recovery and Prosecution Letter

[30907]

Alter Ego suggests:
I note from the National Rail Conditions of Travel that the remedy for travelling at the wrong time on a time restricted ticket is contained under Condition 9.5:

Unfortunately the OP was not travelling on a time restricted ticket, but using a Railcard discount to which they were not entitled to and the Ts&Cs applicable are different.

There is no specific regulation in those about travelling with a discounted ticket before 10am. The nearest I can find is about travelling without a valid railcard and/or ticket:

2.9. If you fail to comply with condition 2.7 and/or 2.8, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for the single fare applicable to your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases you may also be issued with a Penalty Fare.

NRCoT override these, so what do they say?

9.2 If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked... 1we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:

9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station
directly served by the train that you are on.... or
9.2.3 To report you for prosecution.

If you are unable to present a valid Ticket...you will be required to
provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.

1. I would argue that 9.2.1 is applicable here, so the OP should offer £8.50 rather than the difference in fares. That apart, I agree with Alter Ego.

2. I do not use Trainline so cannot comment on whether the OP booked a ticket with a valid pre-10am itinerary (I assume not), or whether the way they used the app could justifiably be considered grounds for prosecution (in which case, does not RoRA 18 apply?).
3. I am unhappy that a letter has been sent without the procedure in the final paragraph being followed.
These last 2 points are only relevant if the OP wishes to defend themself in court.

 

[yorkie]

If the ticket inspector had asked for the difference there and then, and it had been paid, wouldn’t have been any admin.

All the admin has been caused by forgetting the NRCoT rules and wasting time going off at a tangent, there is no provision for admin fee in this situation, it’s not a case of the difference was refused to be paid, (which has to be followed up and justify an admin fee) difference was never asked for.

Based on a very quick skim read, I agree.

Based on the info available it may be worth considering appointing a solicitor, as I think the train company may be guilty of wrongdoing here.

Unfortunately there are insufficient safeguards in place to prevent wrongdoing by train companies.

Unfortunately the OP was not travelling on a time restricted ticket, but using a Railcard discount to which they were not entitled to and the Ts&Cs applicable are different.

I disagree; it's the same concept. The train operator should ask for an excess fare and only escalate the matter if the customer refuses to pay, and/or if there is evidence of doing this on other occasions.

 

[30907]

I disagree; it's the same concept.

Similar, but not same - hence my view. Not unreasonable for railcard misuse to be treated slightly differently.

and only escalate the matter if the customer refuses to pay, and/or if there is evidence of doing this on other occasions.

Agree.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the ticket inspector had asked for the difference there and then, and it had been paid, wouldn’t have been any admin.

All the admin has been caused by forgetting the NRCoT rules and wasting time going off at a tangent, there is no provision for admin fee in this situation, it’s not a case of the difference was refused to be paid, (which has to be followed up and justify an admin fee) difference was never asked for.

Agreed. If the OP is truthful then they caused no admin; it's all on the train company, and they may have only the difference in fare as per the rules.

 

[Moonpie]

One thing that is bugging me... what time train is the op actually searching for and buying from trainline to get the railcard discounted price?

 

[furlong]

The ticket is valid after a particular time on the same day so it is de facto "time-restricted" - the definition is not further qualified to exclude certain types of time restrictions or ticket types - and the wording doesn't even permit charging the difference that brings the fare up to the minimum fare. If something else had been intended in these circumstances, it should have been written into the railcard T&Cs e.g. with a sentence in 4,5 referencing 2.9. Note that 2.9 even mentions the more extreme case where a ticket is bought for someone else but doesn't mention this.

 

[Jammeeget]

Agreed. If the OP is truthful then they caused no admin; it's all on the train company, and they may have only the difference in fare as per the rules.

But the train company isn’t exactly “playing fair”, the conductor first of all not speaking to me and therefore not offering me the chance to purchase a valid ticket. So I don’t expect them to accept anything less than £100 for this matter. As per other threads I have read on here. I’d rather pay that and have this matter over and done with than having to wait 2 weeks between each correspondence.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

redacted

Consider removing their reference in the letter in post #1 as there is a risk of them reading this thread.

 

[philthetube]

Maybe them reading this thread could be a good thing.

 

[furlong]

But the train company isn’t exactly “playing fair”, the conductor first of all not speaking to me and therefore not offering me the chance to purchase a valid ticket. So I don’t expect them to accept anything less than £100 for this matter. As per other threads I have read on here. I’d rather pay that and have this matter over and done with than having to wait 2 weeks between each correspondence.

1) Remember this is 'selection bias' in this forum - it's nothing like a representative sample of what happens normally. Many situations get resolved just by payment of the missing fare without any admin fees.
2) Don't write the suggested letter if anything in it might be false. Attempts to cover something up frequently lead to a worse outcome than caused by the original problem.

 

[357]

I've checked the Trainline website and even though it will state "Railcard discount applied" it shows the same price as a normal ticket until after 10:00

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I've checked the Trainline website and even though it will state "Railcard discount applied" it shows the same price as a normal ticket until after 10:00

So the "Trainline made me do it" defence perhaps doesn't stand up to scrutiny?

 

[RPI]

Can the OP confirm which trains they actually selected? My suspicion is that they have selected a later train in order to get the 16-25 discount to be applied.

If that is the case, and they have routinely done so and travelled early there could be the potential of a RRA prosecution IF the TOC could prove intent, though proving this wouldn't be as simple as in other cases.

 

[island]

I would suggest that, as the OP received contact by email and not by letter (and no reference to an address):
- OP had ticket scanned by conductor
- Guard doesn't pick up on the railcard error (assuming the scanner gives a warning) and carries on checking tickets without speaking to the OP
- Northern get the data and someone has done some data analysis/sweep of the scans by the conductor
- Northern trace it back to the source account (as it was an e-ticket)
- Northern use email address attached to the account to contact

Is this a new approach to revenue protection using ticket scans by guards and then back office analysis to then follow up on anomalies?

I doubt it was this, much more likely the guard picked up on it and submitted a report without reference to the OP. Possibly a guard who had seen the OP misuse this ticket in the past and remembered them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==

So the "Trainline made me do it" defence perhaps doesn't stand up to scrutiny?

Indeed.

 

[ainsworth74]

If it's anything like my bookings on the Trainline the booking confirmation email will list which train was selected on the outward portion of the ticket purchased. So presuming that this does show the train that the OP was travelling on I'd submit this Northern as evidence that clearly something has gone wrong on Trainlines end as the OP selected the train they wished to travel on but Trainline sold the wrong ticket. As such they OPs ticket should have been accepted. The OP may wish to offer to pay the difference in fare due and then pursue a complaint with Trainline for the difference owed.

Of course if the booking confirmation shows a different train was selected, one for travel after the minimum fare ceased to apply...

 

[WesternLancer]

It's not unfeasible (if you do not understand the rules or are unaware of them) to book a cheaper ticket for after 10am with the railcard discount applied, and then see that the ticket says 'Anytime' and assume you can use it on any train.

 

[miklcct]

It's not unfeasible (if you do not understand the rules or are unaware of them) to book a cheaper ticket for after 10am with the railcard discount applied, and then see that the ticket says 'Anytime' and assume you can use it on any train.

As this is the tactic commonly used to work around compulsory reservation trains - sometimes the retailer only offers first class tickets if a train is selected due to it fully booked in the standard class

 

[reb0118]

It's not unfeasible (if you do not understand the rules or are unaware of them) to book a cheaper ticket for after 10am with the railcard discount applied, and then see that the ticket says 'Anytime' and assume you can use it on any train.

However, in the vast majority of cases an off peak ticket would also be applicable at this time. It may be regarded as suspicious that a person buys an anytime ticket when not required - especially when there are barriers to negotiate.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

However, in the vast majority of cases an off peak ticket would also be applicable at this time. It may be regarded as suspicious that a person buys an anytime ticket when not required - especially when there are barriers to negotiate.

Not necessarily. An Anytime Day Return will invariably need to be purchased if the return journey is likely to be between 1601 and 1829 (when an Off Peak Day Return wouldn't be valid in the South Yorkshire area).

 

[357]

Maybe it's just me, but couldn't this have been fixed when we started using the new designs of ticket? Couldn't a Railcard ticket have text printed on it to say not valid before 10am?

 

[Olympian]

Not necessarily. An Anytime Day Return will invariably need to be purchased if the return journey is likely to be between 1601 and 1829 (when an Off Peak Day Return wouldn't be valid in the South Yorkshire area).

Indeed, and if purchasing the OP’s Anytime ticket with railcard discount on Trainline app there’s no mention of any further time restrictions (because of the railcard) and it actually says “Travel any time of day” and, in the full restriction text for that ticket type, “Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel”.

I know that’s not supposed to be the case in this scenario with a railcard but this wording in the app (and confirmation emails??) doesn’t make any mention of the 1000 restriction so could easily be taken at face value as meaning you can get any train that day with the ticket the OP purchased as that’s what the Trainline app says.

 

[Snow1964]

Indeed, and if purchasing the OP’s Anytime ticket with railcard discount on Trainline app there’s no mention of any further time restrictions (because of the railcard) and it actually says “Travel any time of day” and, in the full restriction text for that ticket type, “Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel”.

I know that’s not supposed to be the case in this scenario with a railcard but this wording in the app (and confirmation emails??) doesn’t make any mention of the 1000 restriction so could easily be taken at face value as meaning you can get any train that day with the ticket the OP purchased as that’s what the Trainline app says.

This is where it gets legally messy.
Basically they are selling a conditional ticket (it is conditional on having the valid railcard at date of travel). But the receipt/itinerary doesn’t make this explicitly clear (it often expects customer to look at another document to see this)

What it isn’t is a sale including the terms and conditions of the railcard. So although it is daft idea that they can sell you a ticket which is worthless, that is what happens as they are have separated any responsibility for the validity of the railcard.

However morally it is wrong not to put reminders to check time validity and expiry date because the ticket is only valid when an associated item is also valid.

Saying flexible ticket is valid anytime is technically wrong because they are selling a conditional flexible ticket (it has a condition that it only valid with a railcard, so only during the railcards valid hours, and before it’s expiry date)

 

[John Palmer]

The ticket and conditions of issue posted by @Olympian show the conditions applicable to an outward journey commencing after expiry of the 10.00 railcard restriction. Are identical conditions displayed to a purchaser who seeks to apply the railcard discount to a ticket for an outward journey that is subject to that restriction? The conditions displayed are those the retailer has applied to the ticket at the price charged for it. If either the price or the conditions are at odds with the terms on which the railcard was issued, that must be a matter for the issuer to resolve with the retailer concerned.

 

[Jason12]

Are identical conditions displayed to a purchaser who seeks to apply the railcard discount to a ticket for an outward journey that is subject to that restriction?

If the app is working as intended, for an outward journey which is subject to the 04:30-10:00 restriction, the railcard discounted ticket is not shown at all. Instead the Anytime Day Return is offered, with the identical conditions, but without the railcard discount applied.

 

[John Palmer]

This gets murkier and murkier.

I understand the suggestion being made that the OP may have deliberately selected a post-10.00 departure time for the pre-10.00 journey he proposed to make in order to obtain the 16-25 railcard discount on a fare that is less then the £12.00 threshold. If that could be demonstrated then I can see a heightened risk of RoRA prosecution even if proof of intent may not be straightforward.

However, what @Jason12 has said suggests that if the pre-10.00 restriction applies to the outward journey selected by the app user then no railcard discount gets applied to the Anytime Day Return ticket then provided even if the fare for the return journey specified qualifies for such discount. Would that not amount to a failure to fulfil the bargain struck between the cardholder and the card's provider?


In any case, in order to make sense of the restriction being applied to the 16-25 railcard, one has first to resolve the ambiguity in its wording, as set out at https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/:

“4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare.”

“From 04.30 and 10.00”? Not “Between 04.30 and 10.00” or “From 04.30 to 10.00”. So are there two periods of restriction, each with unspecified endpoints? Easy to guess what was probably intended, but it's not what was actually written. When publishing standard terms and conditions for a product thousands are going to consume it's important to eliminate such ambiguities.

 

[Watershed]

“4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare.”

“From 04.30 and 10.00”? Not “Between 04.30 and 10.00” or “From 04.30 to 10.00”. So are there two periods of restriction, each with unspecified endpoints? Easy to guess what was probably intended, but it's not what was actually written. When publishing standard terms and conditions for a product thousands are going to consume it's important to eliminate such ambiguities.

It is quite clear what the intention of the clause is - I don't think there would be any point trying to argue the toss over this.

Theoretically the OP should also have been aware of the minimum fare clause, and so should have known they would not be entitled to use a ticket discounted to less than £12 before 10am. Of course in practice, how many people actually read the terms and conditions of anything they sign up to...

 

[Fawkes Cat]

However, what @Jason12 has said suggests that if the pre-10.00 restriction applies to the outward journey selected by the app user then no railcard discount gets applied to the Anytime Day Return ticket then provided even if the fare for the return journey specified qualifies for such discount. Would that not amount to a failure to fulfil the bargain struck between the cardholder and the card's provider?

I'm pretty sure that this argument is grasping at straws. A return ticket is one ticket, valid to travel out and back. If you want to take advantage of differential pricing for the outward and return journeys, then you should buy two single tickets. Of course, return tickets are generally heavily discounted against two singles so no-one would (given the choice) buy two single tickets rather than one return.

But as a return is one ticket, you buy it subject to the most severe restrictions to any part of its validity.

 

[reb0118]

Of course, return tickets are generally heavily discounted against two singles so no-one would (given the choice) buy two single tickets rather than one return.

Agreed, although there are some edge cases where a full single in one direction plus a discounted single in the other is cheaper than an undiscounted return.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it's relatively straight forward at this point and there's no need to get tied up in knots about what Trainline did or didn't say and what the Railcard T&Cs do or do not say.

If the OP selected the train that they wished to travel on but were sold a railcard discounted ticket by Trainline then Trainline have made a mistake with their booking engine. The OP should contact Northern with a copy of their booking confirmation showing the train the selected and the ticket that was sold against that itinerary and explain that clearly Trainline have made an error and that they travelled in good conscious using the ticket and itinerary that they were sold by Trainline. I, personally, would offer to pay the difference in fare due and explain that I'm going to be much much more aware of what I'm buying in future. And then see what Northern do. I would also complain to Trainline for the miss-selling of the ticket.

If the OP did not select the train they travelled on and instead selected a train due to depart after 10am then Trainline sold them what they asked for. Whilst it might be nice for Trainline to clearly explain the T&Cs of the railcard I don't think they have any responsibility to do so. The OP then needs to consider why they bought the ticket that they did with the itinerary that they did especially considering that they bought a more expensive ticket than they needed to if their intention was always to travel after 10am. Because this is what Northern will thinking about. Perhaps it was an honest mistake (though it's hard to understand why the ticket was bought when it was more expensive) in which case a profuse apology to Northern and an offer to cover their administration costs and any outstanding fare due along with a strong undertaking never to make such a mistake again might be a sensible way to proceed. Or perhaps the OP wished to use at ticket which was valid but with a discount which wasn't, in which case I would strongly advise the OP to make an even more profuse apology and again offer to cover any admin costs and fare outstanding along with an undertaking that they now understand the seriousness of what they've done and will never do so again.

If this is the first time then in our experience Northern are one of the TOCs that are fairly amenable to settling out of court. But if the OP has done this on multiple occasions and Northern have detected this then I think the price of settling might be very high or indeed not possible at all.

 

[Nottingham59]

However, in the vast majority of cases an off peak ticket would also be applicable at this time. It may be regarded as suspicious that a person buys an anytime ticket when not required - especially when there are barriers to negotiate.

Maybe they bought an anytime ticket because they wanted to travel at any time?