Supermarkets discussion

[SuspectUsual]

Probably Manual Intelligence - remote video feed to a low-wage country with humans making the decision

Pardon Our Interruption

I don’t think it is. Link to the Coop website and some information about a trial they were part of - I suspect this is the rollout of that

 

[jon81uk]

Probably Manual Intelligence - remote video feed to a low-wage country with humans making the decision

Its often just a video feed to the kiosk counter in the same store for the staff to verify.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Its often just a video feed to the kiosk counter in the same store for the staff to verify.

I see a flaw. I wonder if the person at the kiosk counter has one button to press (covering all tills).

So.. Any under age purchaser just need to time their purchase so that it happens just before an obviously old enough person buying booze.

 

[speedy1]

Pardon Our Interruption

I don’t think it is. Link to the Coop website and some information about a trial they were part of - I suspect this is the rollout of that

Oh interesting!

The system doesn’t retain your image because once the transaction has completed it is deleted. As the image isn’t retained, your image won’t be used to improve the algorithm.

aahahah.... hahaha. HAHAH. Right. Sure. Probably in some insecure S3 bucket or passwordless WebDAV endpoint

"As the system uses facial analysis, we will always ask all our customers for consent before using the system"

@johntea did they ask your consent?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Oh interesting!


aahahah.... hahaha. HAHAH. Right. Sure. Probably in some insecure S3 bucket or passwordless WebDAV endpoint

"As the system uses facial analysis, we will always ask all our customers for consent before using the system"

@johntea did they ask your consent?

There is probably a wee little sign on the (open) door stating that if you enter then you imply consent !.

 

[speedy1]

There is probably a wee little sign on the (open) door stating that if you enter then you imply consent !.

IANAL but in my opinion, legally that is not the same as "asking consent".

 

[jon81uk]

I see a flaw. I wonder if the person at the kiosk counter has one button to press (covering all tills).

So.. Any under age purchaser just need to time their purchase so that it happens just before an obviously old enough person buying booze.

To the best of my knowledge at stores that do it, the kiosk has a view showing what is happening on the self-checkouts with the ones that need attention highlighted in red. I've noticed it at Tesco Express stores that the person at the kiosk has their till and a screen showing the self-checkout data. Yes they would need to be cautious of which they are looking at but I expect they would need to push two seperate buttons for each check-out.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I see a flaw. I wonder if the person at the kiosk counter has one button to press (covering all tills).

So.. Any under age purchaser just need to time their purchase so that it happens just before an obviously old enough person buying booze.

Kiosk verification is at individual self-checkout level - similar to authorisation of petrol pumps from the kiosk

 

[jon0844]

To the best of my knowledge at stores that do it, the kiosk has a view showing what is happening on the self-checkouts with the ones that need attention highlighted in red. I've noticed it at Tesco Express stores that the person at the kiosk has their till and a screen showing the self-checkout data. Yes they would need to be cautious of which they are looking at but I expect they would need to push two seperate buttons for each check-out.

What will happen at the stores that Tesco is continually destaffing, so that the poor person in the kiosk has to go out to fulfill a Whoosh picking, and now nobody is around to manage the self checkouts (or the 'staffed' checkout)?

I can very much see that the next step would be for Tesco to send the footage off site for someone (or a computer) to determine age and therefore use the staff for other things and not risk needing extra staff.

With all the issues with shoplifting, I was rather surprised to hear that Tesco is considering (or already doing) a reduction in security staff at many locations. Staff will have a safe room to run to if needed, but otherwise it seems some more losses are acceptable if it means one less staff cost.

(Source; Tesco employee discussions on Reddit).

 

[Peter Sarf]

IANAL but in my opinion, legally that is not the same as "asking consent".

I agree. Implicit agreement is a bit unfair.

 

[Sonic1234]

Staff will have a safe room to run to if needed, but otherwise it seems some more losses are acceptable if it means one less staff cost.

Staff are only effective against the somewhat civilised thieves, they are powerless against the gangs clearing out the whole booze isle.

Same thing on the railway. While no TOC would ever say it publically, I expect they would be happy with slightly higher fare evasion in return for destaffing.

 

[GusB]

Kiosk verification is at individual self-checkout level - similar to authorisation of petrol pumps from the kiosk

This is what happens at my local Co-op. If I go to a self-checkout I normally see the staff member at the kiosk looking over to check. I don't know if the facial recognition AI thing yet.

-----

On a separate issue, I note that Sainsbury's and Morrison's were in negotiations about a merger but nothing came of it.

Sainsbury’s and Morrisons ‘held talks this year’ on multibillion-pound merger

Deal would have created a supermarket with a market share of 23.6%, still well behind Tesco’s 27.8%

www.theguardian.com

Deal would have created a supermarket with a market share of 23.6%, still well behind Tesco’s 27.8%
Sainsbury’s held merger talks with rival Morrisons this year to discuss a multibillion-pound deal that would have been the biggest shake-up for UK supermarkets in decades, according to reports.
The two companies held exploratory negotiations, according to the Financial Times and Sky. It is believed they are no longer in live discussions.

Morrisons, which was once one of the big four UK grocers alongside Sainsbury’s, Tesco and Asda, was bought by the US private equity firm Clayton Dubilier & Rice in 2021.
The deal loaded it with more than £7bn in debt on its balance sheet, and it has since struggled to grow as fast as its rivals. The German discounter Lidl overtook it in market share this year.
A merger between Sainsbury’s and Morrisons would have created a business with a 23.6% market share, putting it still some way behind Britain’s biggest retailer, Tesco, which has 27.8% of the market, according to analysts at Worldpanel by Numerator.

The last attempt to merge two of the big four supermarkets was in 2019, when Asda and Sainsbury’s almost joined forces. That £7bn deal was blocked by the Competition and Markets Authority on the basis that it would result in a loss of competition and higher prices for customers.

The CMA would have almost certainly reviewed any merger between Sainsbury’s and Morrisons, and could have required the former to sell some of its stores to gain approval for any deal.
Reducing competition in the grocery sector could also be politically sensitive, given that millions of households have grappled with persistent food inflation in recent years.

Clayton Dubilier & Rice, however, is open to a tie-up between Morrisons and another major supermarket, according to Sky. It reported that Asda, which is majority owned by the private equity firm TDR Capital, could also be drawn into deal talks.

On the final point, I'm not sure which other major supermarket Morrison's could tie-up with other than Asda. Any combination with Tesco would give the enlarged organisation too big a market share. Morrison's and Asda combined would be around 20%. Do M&S and Waitrose count as "major supermarkets"?

 

[BuhSnarf]

This is what happens at my local Co-op. If I go to a self-checkout I normally see the staff member at the kiosk looking over to check. I don't know if the facial recognition AI thing yet.

-----

On a separate issue, I note that Sainsbury's and Morrison's were in negotiations about a merger but nothing came of it.

Sainsbury’s and Morrisons ‘held talks this year’ on multibillion-pound merger

Deal would have created a supermarket with a market share of 23.6%, still well behind Tesco’s 27.8%

www.theguardian.com

On the final point, I'm not sure which other major supermarket Morrison's could tie-up with other than Asda. Any combination with Tesco would give the enlarged organisation too big a market share. Morrison's and Asda combined would be around 20%. Do M&S and Waitrose count as "major supermarkets"?

Waitrose, yes. But M&S are only really supermarkets in very few locations - most of their food halls aren't a full style supermarket. I would say M&S would be categorised more as a department store.

 

[DelW]

Waitrose, yes. But M&S are only really supermarkets in very few locations - most of their food halls aren't a full style supermarket. I would say M&S would be categorised more as a department store.

M&S has been expanding its food-only estate considerably round my way - the one that's recently opened near me occupies the whole of what was previously a Homebase store. It's about the same size as the nearby Waitrose, and probably has a similar retail area to the food section of the local Sainsbury's (though that also has a household goods and clothing area). I've read of similar M&S new openings in other towns in the area as well.

 

[SuspectUsual]

On the final point, I'm not sure which other major supermarket Morrison's could tie-up with other than Asda. Any combination with Tesco would give the enlarged organisation too big a market share. Morrison's and Asda combined would be around 20%. Do M&S and Waitrose count as "major supermarkets"?

Two businesses drowning in debt forced on them by their owners. I said last year at least one of them will be gone by 2028

Its been discussed before on here, I think, but you only have to go in a Morrisons or Asda that you're familiar with from five years ago to see the decline in infrastructure and standards

 

[jon0844]

Staff are only effective against the somewhat civilised thieves, they are powerless against the gangs clearing out the whole booze isle.

Same thing on the railway. While no TOC would ever say it publically, I expect they would be happy with slightly higher fare evasion in return for destaffing.

Supermarkets can employ security that can protect stock by pushing people out and taking back items, and we've seen videos of where it has happened - not all resulting in that staff member being sacked.

Likewise Travel Safe Officers on the railway can grab someone and physically eject them to prevent travel.

However many security guards despite the accreditation, protective clothing and training don't get involved for whatever reason.

I think it is now becoming a bit of a myth that staff can't intervene. Your normal shop or rail worker can't, but you can bring in people who can.

St Pancras, Blackfriars, West Hampstead and St Albans now have more TSOs who can and will get involved to protect the railway and they will touch people - causing a lot of shock because I think the reason things are so bad now is because everyone believes they won't be touched.

If Tesco gets rid of security the problem will get worse for society in general. Obviously Tesco doesn't care about the bigger picture and I guess they're not worried about the local losses either which can just be passed on.

 

[Buzby]

I have certainly given up with Asda in the past few years - once WallMart abandoned it there was a constant decline and I find the place depressing to visit. As for Morrisons, I’m lucky enough to have a brand spanking new build which looks good and has a bakery, cafe and pharmacy as well as a petrol station. Prices there are higher than I would like, but with the recent news of cafe and pharmacy closures across the estate, its future looks decidedly uncertain.

 

[skyhigh]

Its been discussed before on here, I think, but you only have to go in a Morrisons or Asda that you're familiar with from five years ago to see the decline in infrastructure and standards

Asda has been dire but I get the feeling they're beginning to turn a corner. Morrisons feel like a dying business with no clear direction.

 

[jon0844]

Asda has been dire but I get the feeling they're beginning to turn a corner. Morrisons feel like a dying business with no clear direction.

My Asda has become even worse than when I already thought it was on its final legs. The staff seem totally demoralised.

There are lots of rumours about what might happen to the store going forward, including the sell off of the car park for flats (which either means they'll close the store entirely, build a multi-storey on part of the current car park, or potentially build a store above a car park (which would be a massive undertaking and also take up part of the shop space with lifts/travelators to take people up and down).

I don't know if the store has already been sold off and leased back, but if there are bigger plans waiting to be announced then it may explain why it is looking worse for wear inside.

I've been to some of the newer stores and they look bright and fresh, so I suppose there is going to be a lot of variation.

 

[BuhSnarf]

However many security guards despite the accreditation, protective clothing and training don't get involved for whatever reason.

I don't think the reason is that hard to deduce.

BRC Crime Report 2026

brc.org.uk

The British Retail Consortium crime report estimates that 1,600 incidents per day (down from last year) happen which includes 118 incidents of physical violence a day, 36 incidents a day involving a weapon. I'd imagine their reason is that they want to get home to their family at the end of the day. Both the security staff AND the shoplifters know that they have limited powers to do anything and knowing it's unlikely there will be a police officer near by to support so it emboldens the shoplifter to be more abusive / threatening as they 'will get away with it.'

Would you intervene?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Two businesses drowning in debt forced on them by their owners. I said last year at least one of them will be gone by 2028

Its been discussed before on here, I think, but you only have to go in a Morrisons or Asda that you're familiar with from five years ago to see the decline in infrastructure and standards

I would say ASDA is further down the road of decline. But for Morrisons (my nearest supermarket) I can see a decline in the last five years. More gaps on the shelves new stock shoved in front of existing stock (I have watched shelf fillers do it and it is because they have no time to do it properly - so no stock rotation). Less putting back of abandoned items (by lazy shoppers).

Supermarkets can employ security that can protect stock by pushing people out and taking back items, and we've seen videos of where it has happened - not all resulting in that staff member being sacked.

Likewise Travel Safe Officers on the railway can grab someone and physically eject them to prevent travel.

However many security guards despite the accreditation, protective clothing and training don't get involved for whatever reason.

At the end of the day I feel many "bouncers" enjoyed the power. Realistically it takes that sort of person to ignore the risk of injury.

I think it is now becoming a bit of a myth that staff can't intervene. Your normal shop or rail worker can't, but you can bring in people who can.

St Pancras, Blackfriars, West Hampstead and St Albans now have more TSOs who can and will get involved to protect the railway and they will touch people - causing a lot of shock because I think the reason things are so bad now is because everyone believes they won't be touched.

Last night my 01:32 from St Pancrass to Three Bridges - no beggars. Or maybe it was just too cold for them to be bothered !.

If Tesco gets rid of security the problem will get worse for society in general. Obviously Tesco doesn't care about the bigger picture and I guess they're not worried about the local losses either which can just be passed on.

There will be a point where they either shut up shop or have to address the growing problem.

I have certainly given up with Asda in the past few years - once WallMart abandoned it there was a constant decline and I find the place depressing to visit. As for Morrisons, I’m lucky enough to have a brand spanking new build which looks good and has a bakery, cafe and pharmacy as well as a petrol station. Prices there are higher than I would like, but with the recent news of cafe and pharmacy closures across the estate, its future looks decidedly uncertain.

ASDA is a bit inconvenient for me but it does not seem to have deteriorated further in the last few years on my odd visits.

I don't think the reason is that hard to deduce.

BRC Crime Report 2026

brc.org.uk

The British Retail Consortium crime report estimates that 1,600 incidents per day (down from last year) happen which includes 118 incidents of physical violence a day, 36 incidents a day involving a weapon. I'd imagine their reason is that they want to get home to their family at the end of the day. Both the security staff AND the shoplifters know that they have limited powers to do anything and knowing it's unlikely there will be a police officer near by to support so it emboldens the shoplifter to be more abusive / threatening as they 'will get away with it.'

Would you intervene?

I think something HAS to change otherwise certain areas will become no go areas.

I would also say shop keepers in small shops might be more likely to use force as it is their own money directly lost.

 

[jon81uk]

How long before stores become like Arkwrights again with a majority of items behind the counter?

 

[BuhSnarf]

How long before stores become like Arkwrights again with a majority of items behind the counter?

Well, when I lived in Liverpool between around 2005 and 2010 quite a few local stores operated with all items behind a perspex screen. Customers only allowed in to a small "standing area" that had no stock in it, you could look at the products through the perspex and then the staff member would get what you wanted. It was like an indoor night pay petrol station arrangement.

It felt very odd when I first moved there, but quickly adapted.

 

[GusB]

new stock shoved in front of existing stock (I have watched shelf fillers do it and it is because they have no time to do it properly - so no stock rotation)

I don't know what Morrison's policy is, but at Safeway I was advised not to rotate ambient stock.

Anything approaching its best before date was picked up by the store hygiene team as they did their regular shelf cleaning and recorded on a freshness control form. The grocery staff just made sure that the shelf was filled and moved onto the next item.

Obviously this policy didn't apply to perishables where rotation is essential.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't think the reason is that hard to deduce.

BRC Crime Report 2026

brc.org.uk

The British Retail Consortium crime report estimates that 1,600 incidents per day (down from last year) happen which includes 118 incidents of physical violence a day, 36 incidents a day involving a weapon. I'd imagine their reason is that they want to get home to their family at the end of the day. Both the security staff AND the shoplifters know that they have limited powers to do anything and knowing it's unlikely there will be a police officer near by to support so it emboldens the shoplifter to be more abusive / threatening as they 'will get away with it.'

Would you intervene?

I think something HAS to change otherwise certain areas will become no go areas.

I would also say shop keepers in small shops might be more likely to use force as it is their own money directly lost.

I know its easy to buy into the doom and gloom and stuff, but the report linked above shows the number of incidents is down on last year so things are going in the right direction. I would be careful about spending too much time looking at social media when it comes to things like this as it makes it sound much more prevalent than what it actually is.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't think the reason is that hard to deduce.




I know its easy to buy into the doom and gloom and stuff, but the report linked above shows the number of incidents is down on last year so things are going in the right direction. I would be careful about spending too much time looking at social media when it comes to things like this as it makes it sound much more prevalent than what it actually is.

I read that as number of reported incidents. The number of assaults on staff will be down if staff are declining (rightly or wrongly) to intervene. I suppose the true statistic is how much stock is getting stolen.

 

[jon0844]

I would also say shop keepers in small shops might be more likely to use force as it is their own money directly lost.

The small shopkeepers seem to include those who are unfairly targeted and may indeed take their own action 'off camera', and those who are buying the stolen goods to resell.

I wonder if those that buy stolen goods to resell (saving on going to the local wholesaler) are also victims of theft. It would almost amusing if it was the same people stealing goods who sold the same goods to them in the first place...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 20:28 ==

I don't know what Morrison's policy is, but at Safeway I was advised not to rotate ambient stock.

Anything approaching its best before date was picked up by the store hygiene team as they did their regular shelf cleaning and recorded on a freshness control form. The grocery staff just made sure that the shelf was filled and moved onto the next item.

Obviously this policy didn't apply to perishables where rotation is essential.

Supermarkets seem to be telling staff to spend less time on facing up, and making sure to do other more important/profitable stuff instead - such as dropping everything for Whoosh in Tesco (I believe they're apparently now imposing limits on what people can buy because some people with more money than sense were using it like an online grocery order and picking 60+ items and spending £100+ as a way of not having to do a normal online order and pick a delivery slot that could be days in the future).

One supermarket chain (Morrisons perhaps?) are installing cameras on opposing shelves to spot gaps on shelves and items that need facing up - and I assume they'll work to get AI to alert staff and tell them where to go, rather than have people just wandering around looking to tidy things up because they could be doing something more productive.

They have to get the most from the staff, especially if they have fewer staff because they stopped hiring people to replace those that left. And, again, in the case of Tesco if staff want overtime they'll have to agree to take on more duties.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 20:30 ==

I know its easy to buy into the doom and gloom and stuff, but the report linked above shows the number of incidents is down on last year so things are going in the right direction. I would be careful about spending too much time looking at social media when it comes to things like this as it makes it sound much more prevalent than what it actually is.

I can't remember if it was last year or earlier, but the BBC had a programme on tonight that I think said there were some 500,000 reported cases. I'm assuming the real figures are higher because a lot of stores probably don't report everything. The small shopkeeper may not have the time, or figure the police won't turn up, while the bigger stores may find it ties staff up too much doing reports.

So, while cases may be down, it's still way out of control and there's a LONG way to go.

 

[skyhigh]

One supermarket chain (Morrisons perhaps?) are installing cameras on opposing shelves to spot gaps on shelves and items that need facing up - and I assume they'll work to get AI to alert staff and tell them where to go, rather than have people just wandering around looking to tidy things up because they could be doing something more productive.

Morrisons have had these cameras for a few years up here. They have just gone live in our Asda this month though.

 

[route101]

Normal Crisps are an item that can be quite short dated and have seen them of date of the shelves.

 

[SuspectUsual]

One supermarket chain (Morrisons perhaps?) are installing cameras on opposing shelves to spot gaps on shelves and items that need facing up - and I assume they'll work to get AI to alert staff and tell them where to go, rather than have people just wandering around looking to tidy things up because they could be doing something more productive.

The big chains already have predictive gap identification from their stock and till systems and use it for the faster moving articles - the systems know the average selling frequency of products by hour across the day, and if a product shows positive store stock but nil sales for a defined period (eg the average gap between sales + 100%) it prompts a check.

There are then three outcomes:

1 it’s a false alarm, there is stock on the shelf

2 there’s a gap and stock in the back so it’s replenished

3 there’s a gap and no reserve stock so the store stock file is corrected to zero

The faster moving the product the more accurate and useful it is. For slow sellers you get too many false alarms.

When I was at the Coop we did a load of trials with it, but it’s not really suitable for convenience retailing because there just aren’t enough products that sell fast enough, but for the superstores it can be very useful