Suicide on the Railways

[umontu]

Black humour is one way of dealing with it and although some fund this insensitive with respect to the deceased, it is but a coping mechanism.

Fully agree.

 

[khib70]

Yeah and?

I'm not going to quote your previous post as I don't want to amplify its callous, insensitive and arrogant tone.

There have been some intelligent and compassionate posts from rail staff and members of the public alike on this thread which reflect great credit on the forum.

You, on the other hand, are a real piece of work, as evinced by your posts on this and other threads. I hope that casual readers of this forum don't judge rail staff attitudes by yours.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Two of the themes which generally emerges when this subject is discussed are that the person's actions are 'selfish' and that they 'are not behaving rationally'.

I'd like to suggest that from the viewpoint of someone in a caring, supportive, compassionate and loving environment, these themes might appear to have some truth in them. From a more neutral viewpoint, perhaps less so.
However, from an envionment which is persistently unsupportive, uncaring, unloving and where any compassionate acts are suspected of ulterior motives, then it might be entirely appropriate to behave selfishly and it might be entirely rational to wish to end it all.

Sometimes we just don't have the framework of experience to consider things from others' point of view, and consequently might find ourselves unable to interpret them.

 

[swj99]

Selfishness is described as placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others. It is sometimes said that it’s socially unacceptable to be selfish, and people talk about it like it’s a bad thing. They are often taught that it is wrong to be selfish. But that is just someone else’s opinion, and there are times when it’s totally fine to be selfish. After all, if you don’t put your own interests first now and again, who will ?

Sometimes we just don't have the framework of experience to consider things from others' point of view, and consequently might find ourselves unable to interpret them.

I think a big obstacle to being able to consider and understand things from the point of view of someone else, is the question of the motivation of the other person, ie where they're coming from. If a person is emotional, to the point of hysteria, then a person who is in a totally calm, rational state of mind is likely to struggle to relate to that. It works the same the other way round too, in that a person who is hysterical usually will not think or behave rationally, or take on board logical reasoned argument.

I've seen death and it's not nice. I know the first time I did, the image stayed with me for a long time. Every time I shut my eyes for several days after, I could see the same image.

I think what often gets missed in all of this, especially for the people who are there when something like this happens, is that they don't just have total recall of what they saw, but they also what they felt, heard and understood. The emotional experience they had at the time is inextricably linked to the memory of the event, and available for replay in the present. Time may be a healer, but only if it is used to somehow move on from the event. In rare cases, people blank out or forget experiences, but mostly they learn to adjust to those experiences. It is said that people cannot change what has happened, but they can change how they perceive it and how if affects them.

 

[Greeny]

Having been involved (as part of my old job) in over 40 fatalities on third rail, OHLE and people struck by trains (mainly suicides) I have to say that personally, with only one exception, I did not have any sympathy for them because of the suffering they cause to the poor sod driving the train, and their relatives. Also, the disruption caused to people and those who have to clear up the mess afterwards. Though unlike some of the Keystones, Civil Police and Medics attending, I always managed to maintain respect at the scene. Sorry if that offends anyone – it’s not meant to ...... I simply speak from my own experience.

G.

 

[dstrat]

mr. moo - a very moving account; was an interesting account; for a better word.

The 'selfish' argument is somewhat bizarre to me. It almost sounds sociopathic to me to see somebody ending their existence as a mere inconvenience to others getting home to dinner / corrie or whatever. I don't really subscribe to the idea that people end their lives thinking how can I do this and be a massive **** to everybody else in the process; its more of an overriding anguish that takes little concern of others.

If we cared for each other more, I'm sure society would be better off for it. But there you go, instead we have the Thatcherite, 'I'm alright Jack' thing going on so people just don't give a toss. Bit sad, really from my point of view.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Having been involved (as part of my old job) in over 40 fatalities on third rail, OHLE and people struck by trains (mainly suicides) I have to say that personally, with only one exception, I did not have any sympathy for them because of the suffering they cause to the poor sod driving the train, and their relatives. Also, the disruption caused to people and those who have to clear up the mess afterwards. Though unlike some of the Keystones, Civil Police and Medics attending, I always managed to maintain respect at the scene. Sorry if that offends anyone – it’s not meant to ...... I simply speak from my own experience.

G.

Yes that is the thing. I don't feel any sympathy for them, I fell sympathy for the family who have had to deal with another member of that family been put through so much that they cannot live no longer, but if they want to top themselves, why do it to everyone else's inconvenience? I mean, it's so selfish that somebody wants to disrupt everything, the driver has to go through it, the people that need to clear up have to go through it when they don't really need to be there. It just wastes time and taxpayers money. Again, I don't intend to offend anybody, but it's facts, it can be prevented. Just my view

 

[Mutant Lemming]

They are not a corpse, they are normally several 100 bits of flesh scattered over 200 yards of railway line/station/anyone stood in the firing line, how is that not selfish or whatever other word you chose to use!

Believe me "selfish" is about the only word I call them that I can post on here, I do have several different words for them though!

If anyone is thinking of throwing themselves in front of a train I would gladly supply the jump leads so they can plug themselves into the mains or give them a bottle of whisky/whiskey and a bottle of pills so they can do it in private inconveniencing nobody but the poor sod that finds them.

The point is they don't think - they are often not in a cognative state. I'm afraid I only had the misfortune to see two 100 bits of flesh scattered over 200 yards of railway line/station - a p/way man who's attention was distracted and a young girl who ran down the stairs at Acton Town and threw herself under an incoming E/B Picc after she had been raped. Do you believe his carelessness and her distress to be selfish ? Woe betide you ever have any family members or people close to you who are hellbent on killing themselves. Maybe you would have a less selfish approach yourself.

 

[455driver]

I'm not going to quote your previous post as I don't want to amplify its callous, insensitive and arrogant tone.

If showing compassion for the people who are caught up in and have to deal with the mess caused by one selfish person then yes I am callous and arrogant.

Insensitive to the person who has killed themselves, yep your damn straight I am but not to the poor people who have to clean the blood and guts off themselves because they were in the firing line.

just because I am callous, insensitive and arrogant to one selfish person does nit mean I am callous, insensitive and arrogant to everyone, but I wouldnt expect a one dimensional person like you to "get it"!:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Woe betide you ever have any family members or people close to you who are hellbent on killing themselves.

Too late already done that one!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The point is they don't think - they are often not in a cognative state.

I disagree. I have found, anecdotally, that the people actually "hell bent" on suicide can explain rationally and lucidly why they want to kill themselves, how they will do it, and what arrangements they have made for after their death. Those who scream and shout about it sometimes are simply doing it as a call for help with no intention of killing themselves.

 

[Dr.iver]

MR Moo

A very moving and well written post, I'm pretty certain the driver you met that day went on to become my driver trainer. If it was and I'm pretty certain he was then I can tell you he's doing fine, I know he was affected in his own way as he's told me the story but in general just like life he has moved on

 

[yorkie]

I feel very uncomfortable at the contents of a small number of posts in this thread. After all, a member of this forum committed suicide by the means described at a very young age, completely without warning. Imagine how any of his friends must feel, if they are reading this.

Those who scream and shout about it sometimes are simply doing it as a call for help with no intention of killing themselves.

This is my experience too. Those who have said they would commit suicide, did not do so. And those who did came as a shock.

The youngest I've known to commit suicide was only 12, he was bullied by his step-dad. I simply refuse to believe he was thinking rationally about what he was doing and cannot imagine what he must have gone through. There was absolutely no sign of what was to come, and he seemed fine when he last said hello to me, just 2 days before.

I have a lot of sympathy too for any drivers or other people who end up involved in any such incidents that occur on the Railway.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Not railway related, but when i was in BT back in the 60's a chap joined us who was Brit, but has been conscripted into the Aussie army when he emigrated. Did a tour of Veitnam, the things he went through. Often said he felt down now and then and was going to end it all one day, but as he was always upbeat the next day, we thought no more about it. One day said i mght pop round one evening, but never did. They found he has gassed himself during the night. Could my visit have saved him, or would he have done it another night? That has been on my mind for 45yrs and will always be there. He was a great lad, still think of him.

 

[AlexS]

The whole thing is a horrible can of worms and I honestly wish it didn't come up for discussion on an impersonal medium like a web forum. The same crap gets put out by one side or another and it just continues ever onwards. When it happens at work I have to sit and listen to people tutting and complaining how inconsiderate it all is and I well and truly have to bite my tongue to keep myself from telling them to get over it.

The simple fact of the matter is no one knows what the crack is with these people because they're dead, so you can't ask them. It's extremely frustrating to see the service go up the tubes as a result but as a railwayman I still cannot find it in me to feel, well, anything at all regarding the matter. Certainly not anything anywhere near a feeling of disgust. It's just all very sad for all concerned.

You can psycho-analyse it all you want but at the end of the day it's just another thing like cable theft, or a failed train, or a lineside equipment failure or a level crossing collision that throws everything up in the air. You deal with it as best you can, in an orderly manner, when it happens, commiserate with the public that they're delayed, look after anyone involved if you can, deal with it if you are involved if you can, or entirely reasonably go to bits if you can't, and the world will keep spinning for another day, except of course for the poor sod who is spread across the railway.

Just keep your fingers crossed you are never personally involved, whether that's in the driving cab, cleaning up the mess, or staring down the train in your last seconds.

And for heaven's sake, be a decent human being whenever the opportunity presents. You never know when giving someone a hug could make all the difference.

 

[mr_moo]

MR Moo

A very moving and well written post, I'm pretty certain the driver you met that day went on to become my driver trainer. If it was and I'm pretty certain he was then I can tell you he's doing fine, I know he was affected in his own way as he's told me the story but in general just like life he has moved on

Thanks for the kind words. It's interesting almost to myself how the memories came back very clearly.

Glad to hear the driver is still fine.

 

[DarloRich]

I feel very uncomfortable at the contents of a small number of posts in this thread. After all, a member of this forum committed suicide by the means described at a very young age, completely without warning. Imagine how any of his friends must feel, if they are reading this.

This is my experience too. Those who have said they would commit suicide, did not do so. And those who did came as a shock.

The youngest I've known to commit suicide was only 12, he was bullied by his step-dad. I simply refuse to believe he was thinking rationally about what he was doing and cannot imagine what he must have gone through. There was absolutely no sign of what was to come, and he seemed fine when he last said hello to me, just 2 days before.

I have a lot of sympathy too for any drivers or other people who end up involved in any such incidents that occur on the Railway.

I have to say i agree with this post.

I have experience of this situation from both sides which i dont really want to divulge ( as it is both painful and personal) and find some of the posts extremely callous. I realise this "hardness" is the posters way of dealing with the situation, just as some people use black humour or try to understand the victim and their situation.

I will simply say one day it could be you. Please dont tell me you are to hard, or to cool, or to sensible, or to happy or to anything. Mental illness happens to people just like you. Something tomorrow, something small, could start you on the path that leads to you thinking suicide, by whatever means, is a sensible thing to do.

I have the greatest sympathy for anyone involved in this kind of situation. It is a tragedy all round.

 

[asylumxl]

I have to say i agree with this post.

I have experience of this situation from both sides which i dont really want to divulge ( as it is both painful and personal) and find some of the posts extremely callous. I realise this "hardness" is the posters way of dealing with the situation, just as some people use black humour or try to understand the victim and their situation.

I will simply say one day it could be you. Please dont tell me you are to hard, or to cool, or to sensible, or to happy or to anything. Mental illness happens to people just like you. Something tomorrow, something small, could start you on the path that leads to you thinking suicide, by whatever means, is a sensible thing to do.

I have the greatest sympathy for anyone involved in this kind of situation. It is a tragedy all round.

And what if the people have come to these opinions by experiences of their own? What if it was them? What if they already have mental illness?

I think peoples experiences greatly affect their opinions, and every person will come to their own conclusion. I think there is no right or wrong view on the subject.

Some people consider their actions, and wish to do it in a way that inconveniences people least.

 

[DarloRich]

And what if the people have come to these opinions by experiences of their own? What if it was them? What if they already have mental illness?

I think peoples experiences greatly affect their opinions, and every person will come to their own conclusion. I think there is no right or wrong view on the subject.

Some people consider their actions, and wish to do it in a way that inconveniences people least.

agreed - and by the same token some people do it by whatever means they have access to and/or what they think will work.

I dont seek to change anyone's opinion ( all are valid) just that there be some thought towards how and why someone comes to be in that position and to understand one day , god forbid, it might be them.

 

[185]

Working mostly nights during my 16 year career, I honestly can say I have had more than my fair share of said 'incidents', about eight, to be exact. Even moving to my current job, which is much slower paced, I have already been involved in two.

From my perspective as traincrew (10yrs) facing these incidents, and of being a manager (3yrs) being asked to conduct chain of care interviews, it's fair to say you have to be able to switch off to many things which take place in your workplace, far easier said than done.

 

[LCC106]

The problem with the written word is that people can interpret posts in ways other than intended. I hope we are all being sensitive to others, but by the same token, although uncomfortable reading, we have to respect that different people have different ways of coping and I'm sure that they by no means intend to be disrespectful.

I spoke to a BTP officer a couple of days ago and asked how he coped with such incidents. He said he just gets on with it, as do his colleagues. I have a lot of respect for all those involved.

 

[radamfi]

Depression is a serious illness, but its seriousness is grossly misunderstood or ignored, and still suffers from stigma. Research into curing other fatal illnesses are heavily resourced and benefit from significant amounts of voluntary donations, notably from cancer charities. By contrast, research into finding a cure for depression (and therefore saving lives) is pitifully scarce.

 

[ReverendFozz]

And what if the people have come to these opinions by experiences of their own? What if it was them? What if they already have mental illness?

I think peoples experiences greatly affect their opinions, and every person will come to their own conclusion. I think there is no right or wrong view on the subject.

Some people consider their actions, and wish to do it in a way that inconveniences people least.

I have mental health problems, I am bi-polar and/or Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder, that led me to sit on the Durham Viaduct hoping to blown off by a passing train, luckily BTP saved me, that was back in 1999.

About 12 months later, one of my mates was killed at Durham, he crossed the lines somewhere near Nevilles Cross, I dont think he could have been able to react to the train bearing down on him, it was all over instantly, apparantly some body parts were found close to Tursdale or Ferryhill.

Regarding the selfish opinion, it is and isnt,

It is partly selfish and spiteful to do in such a public environment, it is selfish to the driver, who may never drive again, then theres cleaners who scoop up body parts, then theres passengers and BTP who have the job of notifying next of kin.

It isnt really selfish because the mind of a depressed person is an awkward thing, no confidence or self esteem and literally think nobody cares, thinking family hate you and the world is against you, and death seems the only way out with happy days for everyone.

To the morons posting insensitive posts, jog on, when I started this, I thought I would get mauled for bringing it up, but brought up a decent conversation in the end...

Depression is a serious disorder/condition, I can turn on a sixpence with my conditions and sometimes black out to the point I cant see what I am doing or see who is near me and it is in these moments I would consider suicide because I could not see past my own bad dreams and lack of ambition

 

[silverfoxcc]

Fozz,
Takes some balls writing what you have. Trust that as it was 1999 you have got yourself 'under control' if you know what i mean.
Just take it one day at a time.look after yourself

 

[Mr Sam]

something i always remember is Peter Hook saying in an interview

"suicide is a short term solution to a long term problem"

for those that dont know, he is Bass guitar in New Order formally Joy Division whos lead singer Ian Curtis took his own life

 

[ungreat]

I am a train driver and have been involved with 3 suicides,last one was July 2011. Its not a nice thing to happen but in no way do I think these people are selfish.After my last one I felt pity for the victim...imagine feeling so bad and in such a dark place that suicide seems to be the only way out.Poor souls.

 

[dk1]

I am a train driver and have been involved with 3 suicides,last one was July 2011. Its not a nice thing to happen but in no way do I think these people are selfish.After my last one I felt pity for the victim...imagine feeling so bad and in such a dark place that suicide seems to be the only way out.Poor souls.

Have had two & i felt so different on my second. That was 7 years later in September of last year. Really felt for the chap & have taken a keen interest in mental health since. Im not angry at all. As for the job, i have to admit i am nerveous & jumpy still when driving. Its particually bad after a period of non-driving & in the dark when i feel i cannot prepare myself.

 

[fergusjbend]

It is very moving to witness the compassion shown by the great majority of replies to this thread. It must be truely awful to be unwittingly involved in another person's death without having the slightest choice in the matter, and I am sure that many drivers and other railway staff must have themselves suffered great emotional trauma as a result. Employers and even the trade unions have not always been as sensitive as they could be to staff who have witnessed suicides, and support has not always been forthcoming.

Suicide is (forgive the paradox) a fact of life. Its prevalence varies according to a variety of social and economic factors such as unemployment and trade cycles. It is commoner in single people and those who are socially isolated. Religious faith appears to confer some protection. Mental illness and substance misuse make it much more likely. Only a few of these factors can be predicted or modified at an individual level.

The method chosen by persons wishing to kill themselves is to a large extent socially and culturally determined. In Britain in the first half of the twentieth century, poison such as arsenic and laudenum, and carbon monoxide poisoning by means of coal gas were common. Then in the fifties and sixties overdosing with barbiturates and other sleeping pills became 'fashionable'. More recently gassing from car exhaust fumes and overdoses of paracetamol-based pain killers had a brief vogue.

In each case political action or technological advance eventually removed the hazard. Poisons were restricted, coal gas was replaced by natural methane, barbiturates were superceded by benzodiazepines and catalytic converters removed CO from vehicle exhausts.

The railway however remains as a universably accessible means of self-destruction to those who cannot devise a less traumatic exit from life.

The only way to prevent people from killing themselves on the railway is to prevent access, as has been largely achieved with HS1. This will require considerable investment in secure fencing, modification of bridges and the wholesale closure of level-crossings. It will not stop people from killing themselves, but merely force them to adopt other methods.

But at least it should spare railway workers from the trauma of witnessing such tragic events with such depressing frequency.

 

[thaitransit]

This is an issue on a lot of railway systems around the world. The only solution to it is to identify and address the root cause of the issues that have driven the person to attempt suicide. This really isn't something that the railways can fix as its more of a mental health and social welfare issue.

When I was regularly commuting on SRT Mahachai line you knew when there was a suicide or accident. If the hose and high pressure cleaner was sitting at the end of platform before the train arrived and the train was more than 5 mins late arriving you knew it had hit someone one or something and cleaning was needed.

The longest i ever got delayed because of a suicide on that line was 20 minutes which is far better than the everything must be fully investigated method used in Melbourne Australia.

 

[asylumxl]

To the morons posting insensitive posts, jog on, when I started this, I thought I would get mauled for bringing it up, but brought up a decent conversation in the end..

And what if us "morons" have similar conditions and experiences to yourself?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Too late already done that one!

... what about the question though ?

The girl in a distressed state with who knows what rushing through her head or someone with a ringing in their head that wouldn't stop that got so bad they just wanted to end it however they could (it wasn't a one under but they jumped off a building ). Do you class those suicides as selfish ?