Suggestions on how to improve CrossCountry

[davehsug]

It really is time something was done about the Birmingham-Stoke-Manchester service. It's hell trying to board a train, especially at peak times. I know the historical reason for XC being the operator, but why another operator isn't required to run an hourly (or preferably a half-hourly) service is just stupid. The link between the country's 2nd & 3rd cities surely deserves better?

 

[route101]

Glasgow to Newcastle is a big flow indeed and Motherwell to Edinburgh . Glasgow to Nottingham , cant see it happening but you dont get many going south of Derby from Glasgow

 

[The Ham]

Same can be said of Penzance - we're seeing an increase in Local Trains For Local People due to GWR's increased capacity - not every problem is one that XC are responsible or solving.

Although I have some sympathy for cutting some of the outer services, I'm not sure that there's many trains a day which run to Penzance (most stop at our before Plymouth). As such, the number of released units would likely be fairly small.

The often cited case of cutting Guildford would do very little as the train runs early morning and after the evening peak. As such would result in no extra units during the day to strengthen other services.

 

[The Ham]

I would suggest a new fleet of 9 coach units, probably 35 (i.e. enough to replace the HST's and 5 coach 221's on a more than 1:1 basis), with the existing 220/221 fleet reformed to create a fleet of all 5 coach units (by my maths 43 units). That would give a fleet size of about 78 compared with the current fleet of 63. That would enable at least 15 diagrams to be run as a pair of 5 coach units (about half the services being run by the 5 coach units) and 30 additional long units.

In reality, by halving services at places like Exeter there could be enough units for most services over the core being long or double length trains.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Well one of the “improvements “ regularly suggested on here is to reduce the stops on CrossCountry services. I assume they don’t mean Birmingham, Leeds, Reading, Manchester, Bristol, Oxford, Sheffield, Newcastle, Exeter, York, Derby. So I am assuming they mean Tamworth, Burton, Macclesfield, Stoke, Banbury, Chesterfield. You know the places no one ever goes to or lives in

They can’t replace Burton or Tamworth (on XC) because who else would run there? It’s the only service.

 

[KevinTurvey]

Re Manchester - Birmingham, is there any capacity at all to slot in another hourly train?
Ideal route for some spare crowd busting 8 car EMU's, say Piccadilly-Coventry.

 

[_toommm_]

Re Manchester - Birmingham, is there any capacity at all to slot in another hourly train?
Ideal route for some spare crowd busting 8 car EMU's, say Piccadilly-Coventry.

I highly doubt it with how congested Stockport throat is at the moment, plus Birmingham is always really tight too. Maybe with a small timetable recast but that of course brings problems in itself

 

[AndrewE]

They can’t replace Burton or Tamworth (on XC) because who else would run there? It’s the only service.

It is, but only because XC run the Nottingham-Cardiffs, which double up as the all-stations locals on the line as well as the trains on the Bristol to Newcastle and Reading to Manchester axes. As on the Transpennine route, there needs to be a strategic look at what is needed, with at least 2 tiers of services on most routes.
It highlights the wider lack of a taktfahrplan type timetable, which if done properly would do away with most of the "new services needed" threads here.

 

[dk1]

Although I have some sympathy for cutting some of the outer services, I'm not sure that there's many trains a day which run to Penzance (most stop at our before Plymouth). As such, the number of released units would likely be fairly small.

Monday to Friday West of Plymouth is only really served in marginal times as you say. Only weekends would it be of any benefit when middle of the day services run beyond Plymouth. I think they where looking more at reducing Torbay extensions so that all on the Manchester-Bristol axis could be extended to start to/from Exeter SD.

 

[Andyh82]

I wouldn't change much. As many others have said, just longer trains and better luggage facilities.

I agree, every service doubled up to 2 Voyagers, with a new order/222s/HSTs making up the short fall and they’d be fine.

People here always just look at the start and end destination and then laugh at the idea that that is a major flow, ignoring that there are loads of smaller and medium flows along the route, and also ignoring that Crosscountry didn’t provide that journey, the other operator in the area would.

 

[nw1]

Put the prices up!

I take it you're not an XC passenger? I doubt there are any passengers who would like their fares to go up. It's already expensive enough travelling any distance within this country, particularly if you're outside the Network Railcard area!


Number one improvement: make the trains longer!!! Keep the Voyagers and HSTs, and augment the fleet with new stock or get hold of some 185s if Northern/TPE really don't want them.


Do that and I don't really care what else. There are a few service enhancements that would be nice, notably varying the routes a bit to include, for example, a Reading-Oxford-fast-New Street-WCML-Scotland every 3 or 4 hours or so, but that's very much the nice to have rather than the essential.

It really is the capacity issue above all else. Trains are overcrowded to the point that I actively avoid the Bournemouth-Manchester unless I have a reservation. It's hard to understand why Greater Anglia are replacing apparently perfectly adequate and modern 360s and 379s, they're replacing not-that-old 323s in the Midlands, and SWR are planning to replace the extremely-new 707s, while TOCs that _actually need_ new stock to augment their fleet, such as XC, are getting none.

 

[AndrewE]

People here always just look at the start and end destination and then laugh at the idea that that is a major flow, ignoring that there are loads of smaller and medium flows along the route, and also ignoring that Crosscountry didn’t provide that journey, the other operator in the area would.

...apart from Brum to Derby, where it seems XC are the only operator. At least they do run some Nottingham to Brum stoppers, even if they are erratic and infrequent.

 

[The Planner]

They can’t replace Burton or Tamworth (on XC) because who else would run there? It’s the only service.

The Midlands Connect strategy is to have more local Birmingham to Leicester/Tamworth locals.

 

[404250]

Just came off the last Reading to Manchester direct train tonight. The experience wasn't too bad - once I stool my head into a TV programme the vibrations disappeared. The only problem was the overcrowding really - as most people have already said.

Personally I think they're OK DMUs, but would be best extended (which I know is far easier said than done) or doubled up consistently.

They're not OK IMO, very noisy, strange odour, bad reservation display, ugly interior and exterior. When I said they were slow I didn't mean top speed or acceleration, but whenever I have used they seem to crawl through most of the Midlands, especially around Brum - that's not a fault of the train itself though.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The Midlands Connect strategy is to have more local Birmingham to Leicester/Tamworth locals.

Are they to Moor Street Via the Bordesley Chord? Possibly part of the West Midlands Franchise. The CrossCountry Franchise Consultation proposes to transfer Birmingham to Leicester Services to West Midlands Franchise.

 

[_toommm_]

They're not OK IMO, very noisy, strange odour, bad reservation display, ugly interior and exterior. When I said they were slow I didn't mean top speed or acceleration, but whenever I have used they seem to crawl through most of the Midlands, especially around Brum - that's not a fault of the train itself though.

Probably due to how busy the area is, you're stuck behind another train, so the driver is running under cautionary aspects

 

[NEDdrv]

Have seen quite a few comments about Newcastle terminating trains being curtailed at York as TPE are running more services, people need to to careful what they wish for as there have been so many of their trains cancelled or terminated short at York, Northallerton or Darlington in the last few months at least most of the time XC do make it to Newcastle. XC trains suffer due to poor timetables, at Doncaster most arrive outside early only to be held for late running LNER trains, then they can be delayed by late running TPE trains from York. With the Derby work finished running times should be improved and would be interesting to see what the performance figure would be if XC train left Doncaster before the LNER and York in front of the TPE. Yes XC do suffer from overcrowding and no easy solution to this but in the short term would off lease HST’s not be a good fix, 5 cars to Newcastle - Readings and 2x 220’s to work along side the HST’s on North East - South West services (even if splitting sets at Newcastle/Bristol to re attached for trains heading in the other direction)

 

[dk1]

They're not OK IMO, very noisy, strange odour, bad reservation display, ugly interior and exterior. When I said they were slow I didn't mean top speed or acceleration, but whenever I have used they seem to crawl through most of the Midlands, especially around Brum - that's not a fault of the train itself though.

Lovely big picture windows though. They get a good pace on through to Bristol Parkway. Crawling through the suburbs of Brum is expected & has always been the case.

 

[Ianno87]

It really is time something was done about the Birmingham-Stoke-Manchester service. It's hell trying to board a train, especially at peak times. I know the historical reason for XC being the operator, but why another operator isn't required to run an hourly (or preferably a half-hourly) service is just stupid. The link between the country's 2nd & 3rd cities surely deserves better?

In theory, there's a spare path Birmingham-Wolves since Virgin combined the Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland into a single train.

Norton Bridge in theory creates some paths there.

So...

-LNWR divert the Euston-Stoke-Crewe service to run directly Stafford-Crewe
-LNWR maintain calls at Stone etc. by extending a Wolves terminator onwards to Crewe via Stoke or a new Brum-Stoke-Crewe train (using spare Brum-Wolves capacity)
-This enables the 'fast' XC (the Bristol) to divert via Crewe (faster route) vice Stoke

Pros
-No loss of Brom-Stoke frequency
-No net extra trains into Piccadilly

Cons:
-Loss of one train Stoke-Manchester (albeit a lower capacity one)

 

[The Planner]

-This enables the 'fast' XC (the Bristol)

Stops at Macclesfield now though? so no "fast" anymore.

 

[Kite159]

I like how some people are suggesting that XC skip Banbury. Oxford - Banbury is served by around 2.5 tph, the .5 is a roughly 2 hourly GWR turbo stopper.

Add on Sundays where the GWR service only runs during the summer and something like 3 services.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Some Suggestions For Improvement

Increase Onboard Catering to run AFTER 20:00, improving availability and increasing the number of customers that rely on catering on board.

Refresh the interiors of voyagers and Turbostars. The Voyagers would benefit from an interior repaint and perhaps new moquettes but they don't need anything drastic done to them, just to brighten them up and make them feel more like a CrossCountry train, instead of a Virgin one. The Turbostars could benefit from a deep clean and perhaps some LED lighting fitted to brighten the train and improve safety. Some of the tip up seats in the table bay are often broken, this could be looked at, and also a general improvement of the maintenance quality at Tyesley would be beneficial.

CrossCountry could also look at introducing a Penalty Fare scheme, as stations such as Birmingham New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Leicester and some West Country stations are now Penalty Fare compliant.

 

[BluePenguin]

Put the prices up!

Oh hilarious!

 

[virgintrain1]

Some Suggestions For Improvement

Increase Onboard Catering to run AFTER 20:00, improving availability and increasing the number of customers that rely on catering on board.

Refresh the interiors of voyagers and Turbostars. The Voyagers would benefit from an interior repaint and perhaps new moquettes but they don't need anything drastic done to them, just to brighten them up and make them feel more like a CrossCountry train, instead of a Virgin one. The Turbostars could benefit from a deep clean and perhaps some LED lighting fitted to brighten the train and improve safety. Some of the tip up seats in the table bay are often broken, this could be looked at, and also a general improvement of the maintenance quality at Tyesley would be beneficial.

CrossCountry could also look at introducing a Penalty Fare scheme, as stations such as Birmingham New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Leicester and some West Country stations are now Penalty Fare compliant.

Couldn't agree more. XC Voyagers need a refurbishment new panels and LED lights similar to VT Voyagers.

Catering should definitely be seen as part of an intercity service rather than a nice addition.

 

[davehsug]

In theory, there's a spare path Birmingham-Wolves since Virgin combined the Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland into a single train.

Norton Bridge in theory creates some paths there.

So...

-LNWR divert the Euston-Stoke-Crewe service to run directly Stafford-Crewe
-LNWR maintain calls at Stone etc. by extending a Wolves terminator onwards to Crewe via Stoke or a new Brum-Stoke-Crewe train (using spare Brum-Wolves capacity)
-This enables the 'fast' XC (the Bristol) to divert via Crewe (faster route) vice Stoke

Pros
-No loss of Brom-Stoke frequency
-No net extra trains into Piccadilly

Cons:
-Loss of one train Stoke-Manchester (albeit a lower capacity one)

Nt an option. Why should Stoke lose it's connection to the South West as well as the Local Piccadilly train, which also serves as a commuter line into Stoke from Macclesfield/Congleton. It would make more sense to extend the hourly Piccadilly - Stoke to Brum. Really though, it's not so much about Stoke, as much as the dreadful under-capacity between Manchester & Birmingham.

 

[Butts]

Couldn't agree more. XC Voyagers need a refurbishment new panels and LED lights similar to VT Voyagers.

Catering should definitely be seen as part of an intercity service rather than a nice addition.

Especially the provision of Free Alcohol in 1st Class a la Virgin and LNER ....even if it is restricted to 60mins + journeys.

 

[The Ham]

I would suggest a new fleet of 9 coach units, probably 35 (i.e. enough to replace the HST's and 5 coach 221's on a more than 1:1 basis), with the existing 220/221 fleet reformed to create a fleet of all 5 coach units (by my maths 43 units). That would give a fleet size of about 78 compared with the current fleet of 63. That would enable at least 15 diagrams to be run as a pair of 5 coach units (about half the services being run by the 5 coach units) and 30 additional long units.

In reality, by halving services at places like Exeter there could be enough units for most services over the core being long or double length trains.

Just to compare this with the often cited option of using the 222's as well as the current XC fleet:

530 coaches for a mix of 9/5 coach units
Vs
395 coaches for a mix of 7/5/4 coach units (22x)

Minimum 556 seats over the core
Vs
Minimum 400 seats over the core

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Realistically?

1. Get the 222s on board
2. Split (most of) the Manchester services in the West Midlands to focus more Voyagers on the "core" (plenty of EMUs that could potentially run at 110mph - e.g. 379s - even if it means putting some posher seats into them - eight coaches would be A Good Thing)
3. Now that TPE run two trains per hour from Leeds to Newcastle (and will be extending one of those to Edinburgh each hour), consider reducing the XC service north of Leeds to focus more Voyagers on the "core" (maybe run Edinburgh - Doncaster - Birmingham?)
4. Forget this idea that means trying to link everywhere to everywhere - it's important to try to have direct services between places over "realistic" commuting distance (say up to 100 miles or ninety minutes apart) but the "Manchester to Paignton" or "Aberdeen to Penzance" market is a fraction of a rounding error
5. 802s!

(the ex-Central Trains bits are easier to resolve, given the number of 100mph DMUs coming onto the market over the next few years -170s, 175s etc - just a case of dealing with the platform space at Stansted)

An easy way of making some extra capacity (now they’re talking about how one XC will have to terminate at York vice Newcastle to let extra EC and TP trains go north), would be to have a York & Leeds splitter (splitting at Sheffield); so that you have 8 coaches at least and 4 to Leeds, 4 to York via Donny.

The Leeds to Edinburgh section would be covered by TPE with more suitable stock.

And I am inclined to agree that XC should get some more ‘commuter’ electric stock (e.g. 350/3 and 350/4). If they operated services to/from International to avoid occupying platform space at New Street and allowing all XC Voyager services to route via Solihull. A Manchester service would benefit with 8 coaches and crucial extra stops such as Congleton and Galton Bridge.

 

[The Planner]

And I am inclined to agree that XC should get some more ‘commuter’ electric stock (e.g. 350/3 and 350/4). If they operated services to/from International to avoid occupying platform space at New Street and allowing all XC Voyager services to route via Solihull. A Manchester service would benefit with 8 coaches and crucial extra stops such as Congleton and Galton Bridge.

No capacity between New St and International to do that and you would struggle for platforms there too. You would need to find somewhere for a freight train if another one went via Solihull, but, again, to repeat myself, XC do not want to run via Solihull but are stuck with it until HS2 opens.

Why are stops at Congleton and Galton Bridge crucial? If anything, your service shouldn't be run by XC but someone else, probably WMT/LNWR as it is stopping more.

 

[AndrewE]

Why are stops at Congleton and Galton Bridge crucial? If anything, your service shouldn't be run by XC but someone else, probably WMT/LNWR as it is stopping more.

For "Connectivity." Someone other than me making the point that the network can provide more value if we use it sensibly.
Most lines need 3 levels of service: stoppers, semi-fasts calling mainly at junctions and on some routes real expresses. No point going non-stop Wrexham to Bidston, for example!