It's wonderful to hear a citizen of Plymouth supporting the scheme. All I can say is if one of the moaners is your MP, please write to them and ask them not to screw up this rare opportunity for a genuine railway improvement. They might listen if enough constituents get on their backs.
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Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)
- Thread starter John S2
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It's wonderful to hear a citizen of Plymouth supporting the scheme. All I can say is if one of the moaners is your MP, please write to them and ask them not to screw up this rare opportunity for a genuine railway improvement. They might listen if enough constituents get on their backs.
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R
RailUK Forums
At present if Dawlish is closed those going to the Torbay area get off a HST and then fight their way out of the station and onto a coach.
If the line though Okehampton is built and Dawlish is closed then yes they will still have to get on a bus, however rather than there being circa 600 people from a HST, there may be 50 to 100 people. Yes it's not a massive improvement, but it is better.
Alternatively by sending the long distance services around there maybe scope to provide some form of local service using just one line. Again not a massive improvement but combined it could help.
Also if you think about how the DAL would be built it is likely to include line closures. Meaning to ensure no line closures there would need to be line closures.
Rapidash
Member
Oh I understand that, and recognise the benefits of the Okey line as well. I just think its being pushed for the wrong reasons. Just looking at the last few pages of this thread, the majority of those in favour are holiday makers and 2nd home owners, none of whom are seeing how essential Dawkish or a DAL are and would be to the local economy in this half of the county.
The services from Torbay/Totnes/Newton/ seawall arnt exactly carting around stale farts even in the depths of winter - but are seemingly still being ignored despite the 2 million annual pax numbers. It really doesnt make sense to me.
Just as well there's a regular, express bus route up to Exeter! Oh. Wait...
I'm aware I have made these points before, but apperently there's been an widespread outbreak of Spotters Blindness recently. I fully support better links for the Janners and Cornies, but not at the expense of my own Yokels.
I don't think resilience is the wrong reason for supporting the re-opening of the Okehampton route, similarly, I don't think it's "trainspotters blindness" to realise that if the whole route between Plymouth and London is duplicated (with the exception of the short section between Exeter St Davids and Cowley Bridge Junction), that's about as resilient a railway to the far South West is going to get. That's the reality.
Similarly, I'm not against Torbay and Plymouth MP's saying that we need investment on the main line as well. What I am against is the seemingly unstoppable river of utter diorrhoea that has been emanating from many of the area's politicians, who seem blinkeredley determined to cut off their noses to spite their faces. As examples, we've had:
"The route through Okehampton will do nothing for Plymouth"
"The Okehampton option gives the lowest benefit"
"Reopening the Okehampton line would be building in disaster for the future of South Devon"
Perhaps if those politicians in South Devon recognised the benefits of the Okehampton route but insisted on improvements to the main line as well, instead of coming out with this sort of tripe, I might have more respect for them. It would also show them "speaking with one voice" as opposed to throwing their toys out of the pram.
I do sympathise with the call for a faster main line from Plymouth to Exeter, but the reality of the situation is that there's a sodding great granite batholith in the way, so I don't know realistically how easy it would be to chop through it.
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Rapidash
Member
Resiliency is one thing, diverting away from 1/3 of the population of Devon is something else entirely.
Perhaps it's that they do...
When Taunton's closed and trains are diverted via Yeovil, it's still an inconvenience for the large chunk of Somerset that's cut off, however, the value of the Yeovil route is still recognised as a diversionary route, as an artery for the settlements it serves and as an alternative to the main line. This would be the same to the West of Exeter as it would to the East.
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If they believe that the Okehampton line really would be an existentialist threat to the South Devon mainline, they might as well believe that Elvis is living in a double decker bus, shacked up with Lord Lucan on the dark side of the moon.
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Given that these bi-mode thingys are 2 x 5 car sets, in future decades, it would be good if, in various flooding /storm / blockage situations, that trains could divide,say, at Westbury for instance, and follow different routes. One could envisage trains from Waterloo to Exeter and beyond being diverted from Salisbury via Westbury, as well. Just think up your own calamity location (there will be more of those unfortunately) and it all begins to live a little. I am so pleased that the government advisers are thinking strategically. The Okehampton route really is a no-brainer and was already on the way to being justified for more local reasons anyway. As these trains can be driven from either end, reversals are not a problem.
Cliveblackpool
Member
Surprised at the negativity from a MP etc.
Reopening Okehamton route would transform public transport in Devon and a chunk of Cornwall.
Eg Journey from Plymouth to Barnstaple could be an hour shorter.
I haven't a car, and if I stay at say St Austell, large chunks of Cornwall & Devon are difficult to go for a day out eg Launceston, Okehampton, Bude etc.
Reopen Meldon Viaduct - the North one may be feasible - replace timber deck etc - a pretty penny. If a 30 mph speed restriction is imposed, maybe a new viaduct should be considered - a suspension bridge could look good if close to the existing viaduct.
Looking to the future (rarely done today) spending more money by rebuilding the line to allow speeds of over 100mph (there are already many straight sections) rather than just reinstating the old LSWR. Much easier to do with no trains running!
Voyagers would prefer that route! lol!
Reopening Okehamton route would transform public transport in Devon and a chunk of Cornwall.
Eg Journey from Plymouth to Barnstaple could be an hour shorter.
I haven't a car, and if I stay at say St Austell, large chunks of Cornwall & Devon are difficult to go for a day out eg Launceston, Okehampton, Bude etc.
Reopen Meldon Viaduct - the North one may be feasible - replace timber deck etc - a pretty penny. If a 30 mph speed restriction is imposed, maybe a new viaduct should be considered - a suspension bridge could look good if close to the existing viaduct.
Looking to the future (rarely done today) spending more money by rebuilding the line to allow speeds of over 100mph (there are already many straight sections) rather than just reinstating the old LSWR. Much easier to do with no trains running!
Voyagers would prefer that route! lol!
Suspension bridges aren't normally used for railways - they move about too much.
Busaholic
Veteran Member
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IF the Okehampton route gets (re)built it will be despite Devon and Cornwall's MPs and councillors, not because of them. Not one of them has shown any backbone or stopped sitting on the fence, at least until the weaselly Bradshaw (an unfortunate surname for somebody so uninterested in travel by rail) thought it might get him a few more votes in Exeter next May by pretending that an alternative route to Newton Abbot was the only worthwhile scheme - what does he care about anywhere in Devon west of Exeter or anywhere at all in Cornwall? In fact, given the rivalry between Exeter and Plymouth there'd be many in the former who'd welcome the latter being cut off from the rest of Britain by train for significant periods of time and, let's not forget, Plymouth being a unitary authority has no representation on Devon County Council. The Exeter constituency has a register of about 74,000 electors, the two Plymouth constituencies combined almost double that, and whatever happens or doesn't happen the people of the fair city of Exeter, a likeable place, are not going to suffer through it. If one of Plymouth's MPs thinks they have to support Brother Bradshaw, I'd urge them to think again because it's OKehampton or NOTHING. O.K.?
Just a thought, the existing Devon County proposal to extend the current rail line from its present terminus at Bere Alston to Tavistock (8.8km) involves a new terminus station on a greenfield site next to the SW side of the Callington road where the original rail bridge crossing the Callington road was removed after closure in 1968. If the entire rail route through Tavistock/Okehampton is to be reopened then a new rail bridge over the Callington road will once again carry the railway to the site of the original Tavistock North station, which of course then raises the question, would the original Tavistock North station site be reopened rather than the existing proposal to build a new station 1.5km from the town centre. Yes I know there are currently issues with private ownership of the former Tavistock North station (holiday lets) but in the bigger scheme of things that should not really be a problem given that several other buildings that also block the former rail alignment in the former Tavistock North station area would also have to be removed anyway.
The problem with Tavistock North station is that while in horizontal terms it is right next to the town centre, in vertical terms it is about 400 feet above it up a steep hill. In car parking terms limited with a steep hill and narrow road
It might re open as well as the new station at the south end of town but not instead of if they have any sense.
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Absolutely. It is verging on Serpellite paranoia. Mind you, with the draft Wessex route study suggesting electrification of the Southern route to Exeter, the southern route on an alignment that would allow 125mph running in parts (look how straight it is east of Okehampton) and Dawlish pretty well unelectrifiable....Funnily enough Mr Bradshaw made a speech yesterday in parliament to the effect that the Wessex draft route study didn't give enough prominence to electrifying and redoubling the Waterloo to Exeter line which many people in Exeter use to to London, something the minister said he would look at rectifying in the final version http://www.benbradshaw.co.uk/my_speech_on_south_west_transport_plans ...why hasn't this site got a potstirring icon....
That said, I think people are taking two much notice of the only two Labour MPs west of Bristol, who I think are just being negative for the political sake of it because a Tory/Libdem coalition are proposing this. Had Osborne announced a £2 billion Dawlish diversion on a new alignment they would have blethering on about the fact that it didn't provide an alternative to the line west of Newton Abbot and crying crocodile tears about the fate of Tavistock and Okehampton.
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The problem with Tavistock North station is that while in horizontal terms it is right next to the town centre, in vertical terms it is about 400 feet above it up a steep hill. In car parking terms limited with a steep hill and narrow road
It might re open as well as the new station at the south end of town but not instead of if they have any sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Absolutely. It is verging on Serpellite paranoia. Mind you, with the draft Wessex route study suggesting electrification of the Southern route to Exeter, the southern route on an alignment that would allow 125mph running in parts (look how straight it is east of Okehampton) and Dawlish pretty well unelectrifiable....why hasn't this site got a potstirring icon....
That said, I think people are taking two much notice of the only two Labour MPs west of Bristol, who I think are just being negative for the political sake of it because a Tory/Libdem coalition are proposing this. Had Osborne announced a £2 billion Dawlish diversion on a new alignment they would have blethering on about the fact that it didn't provide an alternative to the line west of Newton Abbot and crying crocodile tears about the fate of Tavistock and Okehampton.
The parking problem may be solved were WDBC to vacate their offices, which was suggested as a possibility on this site awhile back. The offices are built on the old goods yard and occupy a pretty large area, there are quite a few parking spaces provided for staff and visitors already. I suppose a regular bus shuttle service between Tavistock town and the station would also be a possibility to ease the burden of Kilworthy Hill which is admittedly very steep. Personally I would like to see the main station return to Tavistock North but there would certainly be a case for building a halt somewhere near the currently broken bridge at Callington Road-very convenient for the school traffic and also for the huge 750 house estate proposed for that area.
Diverting away will only happen at times of the line being closed for short periods.
Quite. And there's also the matter of why the other two thirds of Devon, not to mention the entirety of Cornwall should be held back in perpetuity, just so that the third doesn't feel left out.
Ash Bridge
Established Member
Regarding Okehampton, I realise there are proposals for a parkway station to the east of the town, and also at Sourton. What will happen at the current station, which in a way is in a similar position to Tavistock i.e. at the top of a hill. Can the heritage operation remain if it becomes a main line station again? Presumably platform 1 will be needed eventually for the North Cornwall connectors 
Moving on to the other former intermediate stations, what do others here think about the prospects for Bridestowe, Lydford and Brentor?(station house still on the market if anyone's interested?) also any thoughts on the three stations between Okehampton and Coleford Junc?
Moving on to the other former intermediate stations, what do others here think about the prospects for Bridestowe, Lydford and Brentor?(station house still on the market if anyone's interested?) also any thoughts on the three stations between Okehampton and Coleford Junc?
How about a fast modern fully automated inclined funicular lift provided from the town centre level up to the old station site. Copious parking around the station site and council offices could then also double up as additional town centre parking, providing a second justification for expenditure on the lift. In order to secure the continued contribution from the housing developers for the areas to the south west of the town, the other station site near Callington Road would need to be provided as well, as a schlep the wrong way into the town centre to catch a train back towards Plymouth would not be attractive for potential purchasers.
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Okehampton's station is a lot further out than Tavistock's which, in a much narrower valley, is almost 'on top' of the town centre, but at a different level.
Ash Bridge
Established Member
So would would you think this is worthy of a shuttle bus link to the town centre, or because of the proposed parkway stations just leave things as current?
Absolutely. It is verging on Serpellite paranoia. Mind you, with the draft Wessex route study suggesting electrification of the Southern route to Exeter, the southern route on an alignment that would allow 125mph running in parts (look how straight it is east of Okehampton) and Dawlish pretty well unelectrifiable....Funnily enough Mr Bradshaw made a speech yesterday in parliament to the effect that the Wessex draft route study didn't give enough prominence to electrifying and redoubling the Waterloo to Exeter line which many people in Exeter use to to London, something the minister said he would look at rectifying in the final version http://www.benbradshaw.co.uk/my_speech_on_south_west_transport_plans ...why hasn't this site got a potstirring icon....
That said, I think people are taking two much notice of the only two Labour MPs west of Bristol, who I think are just being negative for the political sake of it because a Tory/Libdem coalition are proposing this. Had Osborne announced a £2 billion Dawlish diversion on a new alignment they would have blethering on about the fact that it didn't provide an alternative to the line west of Newton Abbot and crying crocodile tears about the fate of Tavistock and Okehampton.
The member for Exeter makes a number of extremely good points about the route between Basingstoke and Exeter, every single one of which applies to the route via Okehampton to Plymouth, which makes his attempts to sabotage the reopening of the route bizarre in the extreme.
Its a steady climb of about 80m over 1 km, from West Street up to the old station entrance, about 8% or 1 in 12.5 in old money. That IS walkable so I would be very loathed to advocate closing (or not fully reopening!) the traditional station site. Anyone living between the centre and the station would obviously have a shorter walk and less of a climb, but the remainder of the town is clearly further away including employment areas to the north and east, the latter area in particular much more conveniently sited for a east side parkway station at the B3260 overbridge.
I'm certainly not opposed to a shuttle bus. My main problem is that even if well timed to meet trains those are often seen as poor value to the user if an addition fare is charged over so short a distance, and if patronage is poor they often don't persist especially if a subsidy from a cash strapped local authority is required. Perhaps better if a link bus could be funded by a chamber of commerce of similar business group and extended through the centre to industrial estates.
Hopefully as well, existing local buses serving the town centre could be extended through to the station site, re-timing them as much as practical to connect with rail services, although apart from a few longer distance services to Exeter and Tavistock that may be replaced by rail, the remainder are mostly very rural routes and are currently particularly sparse and infrequent.
Sir Felix Pole
Established Member
There is a hourly 'town' bus service which runs along Drake Road and could be diverted to serve the station. It is a circular, one-direction route, however, so it would need some re-design.
http://www.cartogold.co.uk/Devon_Transport/PDF/tavistock.pdf
Interestingly the station site wasn't the first choice of the PD & SWR - it proposed a site on the Launceston Road by the hospital which would have given a gentler walk from town. The Duke of Bedford, the major shareholder and landowner, favoured the current site to tie in with his town-centre redevelopment and so naturally prevailed!
http://www.cartogold.co.uk/Devon_Transport/PDF/tavistock.pdf
Interestingly the station site wasn't the first choice of the PD & SWR - it proposed a site on the Launceston Road by the hospital which would have given a gentler walk from town. The Duke of Bedford, the major shareholder and landowner, favoured the current site to tie in with his town-centre redevelopment and so naturally prevailed!
Only slightly off-topic, no doubt members here will have noted that the work to raise the low walkway across the breach site at Dawlish is proceeding only slowly. The second crane barge has not arrived yet, essential to lift in the heavy pre-cast concrete sections that will arrive by sea. Most of the protective shipping containers have been removed, but a comment seen elsewhere suggests that a few containers are to hand nearby if they have to be replaced in a hurry, presumably if there is a storm warning.
I hope NR and their contractors don't live to regret missing all that calm Autumn weather we had.
I hope NR and their contractors don't live to regret missing all that calm Autumn weather we had.
Regarding access to the original LSWR stations at Okehampton and Tavistock, I did not find the walking too arduous when i recce'd both of them a few years back (and I have also visited Okey a couple of times since on the Sunday specials).
Commuters now use a car to get to rural stations and park or use lift and kiss and ride (a charming concept). The DCC proposal was to establish a P and R on the east of Okey. Similar is the proposal for Tavi (excuse the abbs).
I am not a local but I am sure a town shuttle can be worked in too, and I take note of OPs' idea for a west Okey (Sourton) P and R.
The line is fully justified as a regeneration one for North Devon, including a reopening of North Tawton, regardless of its use as a diversion route.
I am astonished at the Plymouth reaction. Relief of the A386 entrance to the city by visitors and commuters from as far away as Okehampton, let alone Tavistock, should be a high priority for them. Parochiality at its worst.
Commuters now use a car to get to rural stations and park or use lift and kiss and ride (a charming concept). The DCC proposal was to establish a P and R on the east of Okey. Similar is the proposal for Tavi (excuse the abbs).
I am not a local but I am sure a town shuttle can be worked in too, and I take note of OPs' idea for a west Okey (Sourton) P and R.
The line is fully justified as a regeneration one for North Devon, including a reopening of North Tawton, regardless of its use as a diversion route.
I am astonished at the Plymouth reaction. Relief of the A386 entrance to the city by visitors and commuters from as far away as Okehampton, let alone Tavistock, should be a high priority for them. Parochiality at its worst.
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Sounds good. Could even extend it to my golf club about a mile and a half up the road-get the train from Bere, funicular to the golf club, have a round and a few sherbets, leave the clubs there, back to Bere via the funicular and train and repeat ad infinitum. Couldn't get much better than that.
I must admit that I do find it amusing that Okehampton might end up with three stations by the time this ends.
As to other station reopenings I could imagine Bow, North Tawton and Lydford but not Brentor or Bridestowe, but who knows, with a parallel cycleway and large numbers of railborne visitors to Dartmoor....
As to other station reopenings I could imagine Bow, North Tawton and Lydford but not Brentor or Bridestowe, but who knows, with a parallel cycleway and large numbers of railborne visitors to Dartmoor....
Ash Bridge
Established Member
Re: Lydford Junc. Are the platforms still extant there, looking at the satellite image there appears to be a platform edge visible. Also what remains of the former GWR branch to Launceston? Was just thinking...
Re: Lydford Junc. Are the platforms still extant there, looking at the satellite image there appears to be a platform edge visible. Also what remains of the former GWR branch to Launceston? Was just thinking...
Uniquely for that line the station was flattened and I think the platforms are gone. It was also a good mile or more from the village. I would put a new station in the village where the cyclepath ends
As for reopening the ex GWR branch towards Launceston, go and wash your mouth out wit soap and water
Actually from online maps it seems more obliterated than the Southern route with an industrial building a lot of incorporation into Fields and the A30 across it near Launceston.
The Bude branch seems to be in the process of being converted into a long distance path/cycleway called the Ruby Way and the North Cornwall line is mostly intact and still fenced off from Halwill to Launceston.
A bit about the Ruby way below. Devon are certainly putting a lot of effort into keeping the trackbed of the Withered Arm intact and maintained.
http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/...ink-Ruby-Way/story-15040732-detail/story.html
http://www.atlantictrail.co.uk/a-t-developments.htm
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Ash Bridge
Established Member
Uniquely for that line the station was flattened and I think the platforms are gone. It was also a good mile or more from the village. I would put a new station in the village where the cyclepath ends
As for reopening the ex GWR branch towards Launceston, go and wash your mouth out wit soap and water
Actually from online maps it seems more obliterated than the Southern route with an industrial building a lot of incorporation into Fields and the A30 across it near Launceston.
The Bude branch seems to be in the process of being converted into a long distance path/cycleway called the Ruby Way and the North Cornwall line is mostly intact and still fenced off from Halwill to Launceston.
A bit about the Ruby way below. Devon are certainly putting a lot of effort into keeping the trackbed of the Withered Arm intact and maintained.
http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/...ink-Ruby-Way/story-15040732-detail/story.html
http://www.atlantictrail.co.uk/a-t-developments.htm
That is good news regarding the Bude branch, I hate to say it,but sadly I really do think the North Cornwall is lost forever. I would really love to be proved wrong, but apart from Launceston, Wadebridge and if we could include Padstow, the original stations are just too far from the settlements they were intended to serve.
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