Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[yorksrob]

The whole population of each of those places doesn't benefit, just those who use the trains and or benefit indirectly through the multiplier effect. It is not the whole population or anything close to it. And some will benefit more than others.

Meanwhile on the A303, every single person who uses it (and I think there is something like 40,000 vehicles every day past Stonehenge) will benefit to the tune of quicker journeys and lower fuel consumption. Speaking very personally, I never consider going to Devon or Cornwall for a holiday as the traffic is so bad en route, with Stonehenge at #1 on that list. With that sorted I may well reconsider.

I would be willing to bet that if you surveyed the population of Exeter, Plymouth, Crediton, Okehampton and Launceston what they would rather have; an improved A303 or a second rail route from Plymouth to Exeter, a very significant majority would pick the former. You'll be hard pressed to find someone in Devon who hasn't been stuck in A303 traffic.

For Crediton, Okehampton, Tavistock and Launceston, you're not just talking about "a second rail route from Plymouth to Exeter" you're talking about their local railway route. A majority might prefer the road improvement, however, a significant proportion would probably prefer decent public transport (perhaps even in proportion to the relative cost the two projects).

Not everybody in Devon and Cornwall and Devon will travel down the A303 either.

 

[Bald Rick]

For Crediton, Okehampton, Tavistock and Launceston, you're not just talking about "a second rail route from Plymouth to Exeter" you're talking about their local railway route. A majority might prefer the road improvement, however, a significant proportion would probably prefer decent public transport (perhaps even in proportion to the relative cost the two projects).

Not everybody in Devon and Cornwall and Devon will travel down the A303 either.

Well we'll never know. But outside the major conurbations and certain types of user (principally those who don't have access to a car, which in rural areas is a small minority), public transport is almost irrelevant for day to day life.

 

[yorksrob]

Well we'll never know. But outside the major conurbations and certain types of user (principally those who don't have access to a car, which in rural areas is a small minority), public transport is almost irrelevant for day to day life.

That's not really true at all to be honest. I live in a small town (some call it a village but it's not) and as you say, I'm pretty sure the majority of households have access to motor transport in some sense. Yet the station is very busy for a large proportion of the time. Public transport is far from irrelevant and not just to the non-motorists.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's not really true at all to be honest. I live in a small town (some call it a village but it's not) and as you say, I'm pretty sure the majority of households have access to motor transport in some sense. Yet the station is very busy for a large proportion of the time. Public transport is far from irrelevant and not just to the non-motorists.

I live in an average sized town with exceptional rail links to London (with a very busy station) and good bus links to adjacent towns. But, aside from those who travel to London for work or pleasure, I don't know anybody in this town with access to a car who uses public transport except on a very occasional basis. 23 people live on my road, only 3 use the train regularly (all work in London). The rest drive - or are driven - everywhere.

30 years ago I lived in a larger town, also in the south east, with similar public transport provision, and the same applied. A decade ago I lived in York, and aside from those who worked for the railway, I didn't know anybody who used the train or bus.

Perhaps my circumstances are / were unusual. But I find it hard to believe it isn't the same elsewhere, particularly where public transport provision isn't as good as it is where I am now.

 

[Busaholic]

When I drive from Penzance in Cornwall to my sister's place in South London, avoiding rush hours and holiday periods, in good weather conditions I usually do it in five and a half hours. That breaks down to two hours to Exeter, a further two hours to Andover and 90 minutes from Andover to Streatham, M25 willing.As far as I am concerned when I pass Stonehenge I am near Andover, hence my astonishment when I see the A303 works counted as being in the south west. My brother-in-law commuted for many years from west of Andover into London, as did many of his neighbours, and he'd have considered it laughable if anyone had said he lived almost in S.W. England.So please don't pretend it does us any day-to-day good, any more than Bicester being chosen as a new Garden City will relieve overcrowding in N.W. England!

 

[muddythefish]

The A303 desperately needs improvement and Stonehenge as World Heritage site should not have a main road within sight or earshot.

Having said that the ex GW main line needs speeding up and more and better rolling stock and the south west as a whole has been starved of rail investment for decades.

The A303 money should be matched by similar spending on rail. Electrification would be a good start.

 

[Woody]

The big stumbling block so far to an additional inland route has been the methodology used by Network Rail to assess the “benefits-cost ratio”. Interestingly in that regard in a recent letter to Exeter MP Ben Bradshaw, http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...d-additional/story-24686729-detail/story.html Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said he will look again at the so-called “benefits-cost ratio”. All of the additional routes examined would generate less than £1 of benefit for every £1 spent, making them poor value, Network Rail found. But critics point to similar schemes scoring below the £1 threshold that got the go-ahead, including of course the £353 million Borders Railway connecting Edinburgh to rural communities. Its no wonder then that Patrick McLoughlin went on to say to MP Ben BradshaW that "My officials are also examining the methodology used by the Scottish government to assess the benefits of investment and I hope to write to you in the next week to set out whether this differs from the methodology my department uses.” It will be interesting to see what if anything positive emerges from that remark, after all, what good for the Scottish Borders Goose is surely good for the Devon gander.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The big stumbling block so far to an additional inland route has been the methodology used by Network Rail to assess the “benefits-cost ratio”. Interestingly in that regard in a recent letter to Exeter MP Ben Bradshaw, http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...d-additional/story-24686729-detail/story.html Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said he will look again at the so-called “benefits-cost ratio”. All of the additional routes examined would generate less than £1 of benefit for every £1 spent, making them poor value, Network Rail found. But critics point to similar schemes scoring below the £1 threshold that got the go-ahead, including of course the £353 million Borders Railway connecting Edinburgh to rural communities. Its no wonder then that Patrick McLoughlin went on to say to MP Ben BradshaW that "My officials are also examining the methodology used by the Scottish government to assess the benefits of investment and I hope to write to you in the next week to set out whether this differs from the methodology my department uses.” It will be interesting to see what if anything positive emerges from that remark, after all, what good for the Scottish Borders Goose is surely good for the Devon gander.

Well all I would like to add is that Monday was a good day for Road transport supporters, let us hope there is some positive news for Rail on Wednesday, and especially so for Rail in Devon & Cornwall.

 

[yorksrob]

I live in an average sized town with exceptional rail links to London (with a very busy station) and good bus links to adjacent towns. But, aside from those who travel to London for work or pleasure, I don't know anybody in this town with access to a car who uses public transport except on a very occasional basis. 23 people live on my road, only 3 use the train regularly (all work in London). The rest drive - or are driven - everywhere.

30 years ago I lived in a larger town, also in the south east, with similar public transport provision, and the same applied. A decade ago I lived in York, and aside from those who worked for the railway, I didn't know anybody who used the train or bus.

Perhaps my circumstances are / were unusual. But I find it hard to believe it isn't the same elsewhere, particularly where public transport provision isn't as good as it is where I am now.

Well, I'm afraid I can only point you towards the very good patronage of my local station throughout the day. These are real passengers, not Scotch mist.

 

[34104]

The whole population of each of those places doesn't benefit, just those who use the trains and or benefit indirectly through the multiplier effect. It is not the whole population or anything close to it. And some will benefit more than others.

Meanwhile on the A303, every single person who uses it (and I think there is something like 40,000 vehicles every day past Stonehenge) will benefit to the tune of quicker journeys and lower fuel consumption. Speaking very personally, I never consider going to Devon or Cornwall for a holiday as the traffic is so bad en route, with Stonehenge at #1 on that list. With that sorted I may well reconsider.

I would be willing to bet that if you surveyed the population of Exeter, Plymouth, Crediton, Okehampton and Launceston what they would rather have; an improved A303 or a second rail route from Plymouth to Exeter, a very significant majority would pick the former. You'll be hard pressed to find someone in Devon who hasn't been stuck in A303 traffic.

I can only speak for myself here but back at the turn of the century [makes you feel old saying that] I commuted from my home near Tavistock to my workplace near Aldershot on a weekly basis, using a mixture of car and train -indeed I did get stuck in A303 traffic on quite a few occasions, although generally it wasn't really that bad. But had the option of travelling directly by train from Tavistock been available, then there is no way that driving would have been even a semi regular choice and it would be no different even with an improved A303.The Tavistock to Okehampton road is not exactly a racing track and the thought of getting on a train, being able to relax, do a bit of work or whatever would have been a no brainer option and, although I agree that the great majority of people still use the road in comparison to rail, i would be willing to bet that a very reasonable amount of business would be attained via others in this area who feel the same way as me, no matter where their destination is.

 

[Woody]

Further to my last comment about "benefit to cost ratio", my local BBC Radio Devon news has said this morning (2nd December) that "more details are expected later today on the likelihood of an alternative rail route between Plymouth and Exeter" with Okehampton being specifically mentioned! Lets hope wait and see.

 

[The Ham]

Further to my last comment about "benefit to cost ratio", my local BBC Radio Devon news has said this morning (2nd December) that "more details are expected later today on the likelihood of an alternative rail route between Plymouth and Exeter" with Okehampton being specifically mentioned! Lets hope wait and see.

From the National Infrastructure Plan 2014
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...902895_NationalInfrastructurePlan2014_acc.pdf

Dawlish rail services – the government will support Network Rail in its work to improve the resilience of the railway at Dawlish. Additionally, it will ask Network Rail to examine wider issues surrounding connectivity to and within the South West peninsula. Specifically, Network Rail will consider alternatives to the current mainline route to the South West via Dawlish, including an alternative route via the north side of Dartmoor through Okehampton. This work will feed into Network Rail’s Initial Industry Plan for Control Period 6 (2019-2024)

Not sure if there will be more to come, or if that is it.

 

[yorksrob]

From the National Infrastructure Plan 2014
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...902895_NationalInfrastructurePlan2014_acc.pdf


Not sure if there will be more to come, or if that is it.

Well, it's a good start at any rate !

 

[Bald Rick]

The big stumbling block so far to an additional inland route has been the methodology used by Network Rail to assess the “benefits-cost ratio”. Interestingly in that regard in a recent letter to Exeter MP Ben Bradshaw, http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...d-additional/story-24686729-detail/story.html Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said he will look again at the so-called “benefits-cost ratio”. All of the additional routes examined would generate less than £1 of benefit for every £1 spent, making them poor value, Network Rail found. But critics point to similar schemes scoring below the £1 threshold that got the go-ahead, including of course the £353 million Borders Railway connecting Edinburgh to rural communities. Its no wonder then that Patrick McLoughlin went on to say to MP Ben BradshaW that "My officials are also examining the methodology used by the Scottish government to assess the benefits of investment and I hope to write to you in the next week to set out whether this differs from the methodology my department uses.” It will be interesting to see what if anything positive emerges from that remark, after all, what good for the Scottish Borders Goose is surely good for the Devon gander.

It's not Network Rail's method of assessing schemes, it is Governments standard method for assessing all transport schemes.

Mr Bradshaw will already know that the same methodology was used for the Borders Railway, and that it got given the go ahead purely for political reasons either a) for the good of the Scottish people or b) to buy votes, depending on your personal cynicism about politicians.

 

[deltic08]

I can only speak for myself here but back at the turn of the century [makes you feel old saying that] I commuted from my home near Tavistock to my workplace near Aldershot on a weekly basis, using a mixture of car and train -indeed I did get stuck in A303 traffic on quite a few occasions, although generally it wasn't really that bad. But had the option of travelling directly by train from Tavistock been available, then there is no way that driving would have been even a semi regular choice and it would be no different even with an improved A303.The Tavistock to Okehampton road is not exactly a racing track and the thought of getting on a train, being able to relax, do a bit of work or whatever would have been a no brainer option and, although I agree that the great majority of people still use the road in comparison to rail, i would be willing to bet that a very reasonable amount of business would be attained via others in this area who feel the same way as me, no matter where their destination is.

Exactly. If it isn't there people do not have the option of using it. As it said in the film, build it and they will come.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Government-look-opening-Dartmoor-railway/story-25030727-detail/story.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-30292756?

WMN and BBC have caught up.

 

[21C101]

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Government-look-opening-Dartmoor-railway/story-25030727-detail/story.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-30292756?

WMN and BBC have caught up.

So the LSWR route as the WMN put it is the only option going forward for feasibility study.

Looks like the Dawlish Diversion is dead. In the words of the floods minister Dan Rogerson

"It is crucial that we protect that link for all those communities across south Devon and south east Cornwall, and coming down to the west".

"But I believe there is a real opportunity to do something more imaginative to restore rail connections across the middle of Devon, and also bring it closer to communities like Launceston and Bude, which haven't had it for generations."

 

[MarkyT]

So the LSWR route as the WMN put it is the only option going forward for feasibility study.

Looks like the Dawlish Diversion is dead. In the words of the floods minister Dan Rogerson

It may not mean that in the much longer term, and I wish people would stop couching the whole damned argument in terms of an ancient tribal war between companies that ceased to exist over sixty years ago. If Okehampton is to go ahead nevertheless as a political and economic stimulus package then great lets do it properly, with three car portions of Waterloo trains extended hourly and stopping at Cranbrook for a direct Exeter airport link to Plymouth. I don't believe many people will use such a service from Plymouth all the way to London, although as long as it remained a different operator that could provide some welcome price competition particularly in the leisure market to keep the GW franchisee on their toes. The route could have a reasonable regional function linking Plymouth directly with other towns and interchanges on the LSWR route east of Exeter and serving Exeter itself slightly better for commuters and leisure travellers via Central station.

Note the WMN used the term Quango to describe Network Rail, the first time I have seen this usage. Although maybe accurate in reference to the organisation's relationship with government and not strictly speaking a derogatory term, I think it's rather odd term for a large state owned company employing thousands on the direct maintenance and renewal of the network. On that basis the NHS might also be thus described, but would any journalist do so?

 

[Ash Bridge]

And surely it would help matters now if it was found one of the two existing viaducts at Meldon could be made fit for purpose, rather than resorting to a new build, thus saving considerable time and money.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Hopefully Network Rail will be able to do a detailed survey now that the political will appears to be there, (till the election at least!), and come up with a realistic and pragmatic solution. I think the first report and the high price-tag was an attempt to close down the matter. I'm reminded of Ribblehead Viaduct when BR said it needed complete replacement, to justify closing the S & C, yet when closure was refused it was mysteriously repaired and now carries heavy coal trains. I'm also glad it is being couched as an alternative route, in addition to the Dawlish line, to avoid alarming the good burghers of South Devon too much.

Danny Alexander Chief Sec to Treasury has also made a comment today:-

We're looking at two things - the first is how can we strengthen that railway line further and the second is is there an alternative route? The idea of reopening the line through Okehampton for example - we have got Network Rail now doing a very detailed piece of work so we make sure we have got all the options on the table based on the next rail spending period "

 

[The Ham]

It may not mean that in the much longer term, and I wish people would stop couching the whole damned argument in terms of an ancient tribal war between companies that ceased to exist over sixty years ago. If Okehampton is to go ahead nevertheless as a political and economic stimulus package then great lets do it properly, with three car portions of Waterloo trains extended hourly and stopping at Cranbrook for a direct Exeter airport link to Plymouth. I don't believe many people will use such a service from Plymouth all the way to London, although as long as it remained a different operator that could provide some welcome price competition particularly in the leisure market to keep the GW franchisee on their toes. The route could have a reasonable regional function linking Plymouth directly with other towns and interchanges on the LSWR route east of Exeter and serving Exeter itself slightly better for commuters and leisure travellers via Central station.

Note the WMN used the term Quango to describe Network Rail, the first time I have seen this usage. Although maybe accurate in reference to the organisation's relationship with government and not strictly speaking a derogatory term, I think it's rather odd term for a large state owned company employing thousands on the direct maintenance and renewal of the network. On that basis the NHS might also be thus described, but would any journalist do so?

I agree that not many would use such a service all the way between Plymouth and London (unless cost is a factor), however there are many places elsewhere in the south (e.g. Woking, Southampton, Salisbury) where such a service would be comparable if not slightly faster than getting up to the GW services.

 

[QJ]

Oh to waive the magic wand and instantly re-instate the SR route to Plymouth. No change of trains to visit family in Tavistock with a direct service from Basingstoke.

And what fun could be had running steam hauled charters around the "loop" when the weather allows and heritage diesels when it does not. In case of flooding main line a few of the remaining diesel hydraulics (a Hymek or two and a Warship please).

Meanwhile back in the 21st Century ....................................

 

[21C101]

I agree that not many would use such a service all the way between Plymouth and London (unless cost is a factor), however there are many places elsewhere in the south (e.g. Woking, Southampton, Salisbury) where such a service would be comparable if not slightly faster than getting up to the GW services.

It depends which part of London. Most places in south London and you would probably get on at Clapham or Waterloo via Waterloo East, not to mention Surrey and places like Gatwick Airport.

Also people getting on at Okehampton (for North Devon and North Cornwall) Tavistock and maybe even Devonport, would likely stay on right through to Waterloo.

Hopefully some of the services would split at Salisbury with a portion to Southampton and Brighton, reinstating a service that ran daily right up to the day the line closed.

Chiltern Railways have shown what can be achieved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And surely it would help matters now if it was found one of the two existing viaducts at Meldon could be made fit for purpose, rather than resorting to a new build, thus saving considerable time and money.

It is to be hoped that part the feasibility study, what Danny Alexander referred to as a "very detailed piece of work" will include a thorough assessment of the feasibility of reopening the viaduct to trains, as that would probably drop the cost to nearer the £100 million that was being touted around a while back.

 

[yorksrob]

It may not mean that in the much longer term, and I wish people would stop couching the whole damned argument in terms of an ancient tribal war between companies that ceased to exist over sixty years ago. If Okehampton is to go ahead nevertheless as a political and economic stimulus package then great lets do it properly, with three car portions of Waterloo trains extended hourly and stopping at Cranbrook for a direct Exeter airport link to Plymouth. I don't believe many people will use such a service from Plymouth all the way to London, although as long as it remained a different operator that could provide some welcome price competition particularly in the leisure market to keep the GW franchisee on their toes. The route could have a reasonable regional function linking Plymouth directly with other towns and interchanges on the LSWR route east of Exeter and serving Exeter itself slightly better for commuters and leisure travellers via Central station.

Indeed. This doesn't mean the end of the Dawlish avoider in the longer term, particularly if it were to emerge as part of a long term project to speed up the whole main line, and this leaves the South Devon route very firmly as the main line.

However, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the central Devon route is absolutely the right course of action to pursue at this time, in terms of maximum resilience for the network as a whole, additional benefits to the local area, cost effectiveness and lack of upheaval during construction.

It's worth noting that even the old tribal rivals of the GWR and SR saw the value of eachother's route before the Beeching ideology took hold.

 

[34104]

It depends which part of London. Most places in south London and you would probably get on at Clapham or Waterloo via Waterloo East, not to mention Surrey and places like Gatwick Airport.

Also people getting on at Okehampton (for North Devon and North Cornwall) Tavistock and maybe even Devonport, would likely stay on right through to Waterloo.

Hopefully some of the services would split at Salisbury with a portion to Southampton and Brighton, reinstating a service that ran daily right up to the day the line closed.

Chiltern Railways have shown what can be achieved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It is to be hoped that part the feasibility study, what Danny Alexander referred to as a "very detailed piece of work" will include a thorough assessment of the feasibility of reopening the viaduct to trains, as that would probably drop the cost to nearer the £100 million that was being touted around a while back.

Re-open the line via Kings Road to make it a real Southern revival! All that would be needed would be to knock down a Lidl's, rebuild two bridges over Wolseley Road, knock down some sheltered housing, reinstate Weston Mill Viaduct and embankments, demolish Maunsell Close, Bulleid Way and Drummond Close, excavate the cuttings where Ford station was, rebuild Ford viaduct, demolish the City College and rebuild Kings Road station, excavate the cutting from beyond Fitzroy Road and before you know it, you're at Devonport Junction-piece of cake!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Re-open the line via Kings Road to make it a real Southern revival! All that would be needed would be to knock down a Lidl's, rebuild two bridges over Wolseley Road, knock down some sheltered housing, reinstate Weston Mill Viaduct and embankments, demolish Maunsell Close, Bulleid Way and Drummond Close, excavate the cuttings where Ford station was, rebuild Ford viaduct, demolish the City College and rebuild Kings Road station, excavate the cutting from beyond Fitzroy Road and before you know it, you're at Devonport Junction-piece of cake!

Wow! Never thought it would be as straightforward as that

 

[yorksrob]

reinstate Weston Mill Viaduct and embankments,

I've seen pictures of that Viaduct. Bet it was a really attractive approach to the City - possibly similar to the approach to Brighton over the London Road viaduct ?

 

[21C101]

Wow! Never thought it would be as straightforward as that

Now this is taking its first steps to fruition what's next: Ilfracombe, Bude, Padstow or Lyme Regis?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Re-open the line via Kings Road to make it a real Southern revival! All that would be needed would be to knock down a Lidl's, rebuild two bridges over Wolseley Road, knock down some sheltered housing, reinstate Weston Mill Viaduct and embankments, demolish Maunsell Close, Bulleid Way and Drummond Close, excavate the cuttings where Ford station was, rebuild Ford viaduct, demolish the City College and rebuild Kings Road station, excavate the cutting from beyond Fitzroy Road and before you know it, you're at Devonport Junction-piece of cake!

Devonport Albert Road might be easier.

Meanwhile from Martyn Oates BBC SW Political Correspondent on Twitter:-

It's fair to say the SW has abruptly stopped "speaking with one voice" on rail now Govt appears to be favouring the Okehampton line.
Okehampton alternative line only one named specifically by Gov. A hint or do they just think "Okehampton" has a fine Westcountry ring to it?
SW Peninsula Rail Task Force to meet Prime Minister with @garystreetermp on Thursday to discuss Dawlish resilience and alternative routes.

 

[yorksrob]

Meanwhile from Martyn Oates BBC SW Political Correspondent on Twitter:-

Could you include a link please.