Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[Ash Bridge]

Now this is taking its first steps to fruition what's next: Ilfracombe, Bude, Padstow or Lyme Regis?

Seriously wasn't there some mention a few years back of reopening to Bude with private money if the mainline was ever reinstated? I think it was mooted by the current American owners of the Dartmoor line. Iam sure it was an article in the Dartmoor Railway Supporters Magazine/Newsletter. Never say never

 

[34104]

I've seen pictures of that Viaduct. Bet it was a really attractive approach to the City - possibly similar to the approach to Brighton over the London Road viaduct ?

You may be thinking of Ford viaduct, criminally destroyed in the 1980's;



https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4058/4283904913_b41e7df116_z.jpg?zz=1

It was a very similar and equally easy to the eye structure to the still standing Shillamill and Wilminstone viaducts near Tavistock. Weston Mill viaduct was actually just a single girder bridge similar in design to the bridge over the River Tavy. Some good stuff on the old SR line here;

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/southern-route-devonport-kings-road-to-okehampton.html

 

[yorksrob]

You may be thinking of Ford viaduct, criminally destroyed in the 1980's;



https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4058/4283904913_b41e7df116_z.jpg?zz=1

It was a very similar and equally easy to the eye structure to the still standing Shillamill and Wilminstone viaducts near Tavistock. Weston Mill viaduct was actually just a single girder bridge similar in design to the bridge over the River Tavy. Some good stuff on the old SR line here;

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/southern-route-devonport-kings-road-to-okehampton.html

Ah yes, that's the one I'm thinking of.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

https://twitter.com/bbcmartynoates

Could you include a link please.

 

[34104]

Seriously wasn't there some mention a few years back of reopening to Bude with private money if the mainline was ever reinstated? I think it was mooted by the current American owners of the Dartmoor line. Iam sure it was an article in the Dartmoor Railway Supporters Magazine/Newsletter. Never say never

I think the major problem with Bude would be the upgraded A30 which hacked through where the line used to be about half a mile from Meldon junction, although having seen some of the engineering works on the Borders Railway then maybe it wouldn't present an insuperable physical obstacle. Apart from a few houses at Halwill Junction, the line is pretty much clear to the outskirts of Bude. Don't think it'll happen though, certainly not in my lifetime-it would need a real sea change in thinking or circumstances for it to take place.

 

[yorksrob]

https://twitter.com/bbcmartynoates

Thanks for that.

For A Chairman of the All Party South West Group, Mr Bradshaw, M.P. seems to be mistaken in the Western Morning News:

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...moor-railway/story-25030727-detail/story.html

"I am very concerned the Government is pre-empting a further study into alternatives to the Dawlish route with bias for Okehampton which has the least support and delivers the least benefit for the South West"

The Okehampton route had a BCR of 0.14, whereas three of the cut-off options had worse BCR's (C1, C2 and C3 - 0.08, 0.12 and 0.13 respectively).

Even the other two, C4 and C5 only get 1.7 and 1.5 respectively, which is hardly overwhelming, bearing in mind the many social benefits to communities along the Okehampton route weren't considered in the study.

I would also be interested to see what evidence he has for Okehampton having the least support. Who has he asked ?

 

[21C101]

Interesting twitter exchange between an MP, BBC political editor and Newspaper Parliamentary correspondent

https://mobile.twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/539809494260518912

Fantastic news that @networkrail have been given the go-ahead by @Number10gov for an alternative route.

It's the Okehampton route specifically

I think we've conducted an effective pincer action.

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Thanks for that.

For A Chairman of the All Party South West Group, Mr Bradshaw, M.P. seems to be mistaken in the Western Morning News:

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...moor-railway/story-25030727-detail/story.html

"I am very concerned the Government is pre-empting a further study into alternatives to the Dawlish route with bias for Okehampton which has the least support and delivers the least benefit for the South West"

The Okehampton route had a BCR of 0.14, whereas three of the cut-off options had worse BCR's (C1, C2 and C3 - 0.08, 0.12 and 0.13 respectively).

Even the other two, C4 and C5 only get 1.7 and 1.5 respectively, which is hardly overwhelming, bearing in mind the many social benefits to communities along the Okehampton route weren't considered in the study.

I would also be interested to see what evidence he has for Okehampton having the least support. Who has he asked ?

He's Labour, so is Labour MP for Plymouth Moor View who is not at all enthusiastic according to a report in the Plymouth Herald. Meanwhile a Conservative MP in Plymouth Sutton and Devonport thinks

"It is good news the Government are providing rail cash for the South West. It has been a long time coming.

“But it depends on what happens at the election. If there is not a Conservative-led government it would be very difficult to see this investment happening."

and on twitter he said:

Fantastic news that @Networkrail have been given the go-ahead by @Number10gov for an alternative route

Meanwhile the Labour Candidate for his Plymouth Sutton and Devonport seat says:

Building just a train line to Okehampton does nothing for Plymouth....This looks like a slap in the face for Plymouth and the far south west.”

Looks to me like Labour appear to be putting the boot in because its a Libdem/Tory coalition policy. It may also reflect that Labour can only win seats in Exeter and Plymouth so maybe don't give a damn about anywhere else west of Bristol, especially West/North Devon and North Cornwall


Importantly the newspaper article states:

The work will be carried out by Spring, and involve local authorities and councils, and could form part of Network Rail’s spending plans from 2019.

Trains can already run from Exeter to Meldon, west of Okehampton, on a privately-owned freight line. Engineers would then have to build a new track from Meldon, across the edge of Dartmoor National Park, to Tavistock.

Devon County Council is already planning to re-open a five-mile stretch of line connecting Tavistock southwards to Bere Alston, which would then take trains on to Plymouth.

A DfT spokesman said: “We will be working with the local authorities and local enterprise partnership to undertake a feasibility study into re-opening that route.”

So a decision to go ahead could be taken before the election at the pre election budget perhaps and the feasibility study won't just include Network Rail.

 

[yorksrob]

He's Labour, so is Labour MP for Plymouth Moor View who is not at all enthusiastic according to a report in the Plymouth Herald. Meanwhile a Conservative MP in Plymouth Sutton and Devonport thinks



and on twitter he said:



Meanwhile the Labour Candidate for his Plymouth Sutton and Devonport seat says:



Looks to me like Labour are putting the boot in because its a Libdem/Tory coalition policy.

Indeed. Labour seem to be coming across as utterly clueless. Even if they prefer a cut-off route, how can they say the Okehampton route "does nothing for Plymouth". It would still be able to carry a train in the event of a closure on the South Devon route, and unless they've got some sort of a Berlin Wall thing going on between Plymouth and everywhere North that they haven't told us about, I dare say that people from Plymouth travel to mid and North Devon as well.

 

[drinnicksiding]

I agree that not many would use such a service all the way between Plymouth and London (unless cost is a factor), however there are many places elsewhere in the south (e.g. Woking, Southampton, Salisbury) where such a service would be comparable if not slightly faster than getting up to the GW services.

I disagree. People travel from Exeter St David's to Waterloo rather than Paddington. Cost more than likely the reason, but still.

The main reason for the new line is to supplement the main line. Just because local Plymouth - Tavistock - Okehampton - Exeter services wouldn't justify the line alone, doesn't mean they wouldn't be viable should the line be built for other reasons.

There is also demand for more connections from St David's to Central. Then there's demand for more Cranbrook services, why not have a trough service?

re the Labour Candidate for his Plymouth Sutton and Devonport seat - how doesn't it help Plymouth??? If there are blockades west of Newton Abbot, how would a Dawlish avoiding line help??? Stupid comment to make.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think the major problem with Bude would be the upgraded A30 which hacked through where the line used to be about half a mile from Meldon junction, although having seen some of the engineering works on the Borders Railway then maybe it wouldn't present an insuperable physical obstacle. Apart from a few houses at Halwill Junction, the line is pretty much clear to the outskirts of Bude. Don't think it'll happen though, certainly not in my lifetime-it would need a real sea change in thinking or circumstances for it to take place.

Yes,being realistic probably not in my time either, lovely thought though all the same. Also as you say it does need a real sea change in the way people think, you only have to look at some of the posts on this thread e.g. " I wouldn't holiday in Devon or Cornwall because there's so much road congestion on the routes traveling down" since 1993 we abandoned the car and have traveled down by train to Exeter, 3 hrs 55 mins from Stockport, picked up the hire car at St David's and driven across to Tintagel/Boscastle in around 1.5 hrs. Our holiday starts the moment we step onboard the train. The petrol heads don't realise their views are so blinkered that they think, if we can't get there in our car, then we can't get there at all:roll: Oh by the way if that sounded like a rant, it wasn't, honest

 

[yorksrob]

Yes,being realistic probably not in my time either, lovely thought though all the same. Also as you say it does need a real sea change in the way people think, you only have to look at some of the posts on this thread e.g. " I wouldn't holiday in Devon or Cornwall because there's so much road congestion on the routes traveling down" since 1993 we abandoned the car and have traveled down by train to Exeter, 3 hrs 55 mins from Stockport, picked up the hire car at St David's and driven across to Tintagel/Boscastle in around 1.5 hrs. Our holiday starts the moment we step onboard the train. The petrol heads don't realise their views are so blinkered that they think, if we can't get there in our car, then we can't get there at all:roll: Oh by the way if that sounded like a rant, it wasn't, honest

My folks have always driven to Cornwall by car, however, they've decided to take a leaf out of my book and go by train next year. I'll be interested to see whether they stick with it.
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I disagree. People travel from Exeter St David's to Waterloo rather than Paddington.

I do quite often, primarily because of the space and comfort. From Paddington you've got a good chance of being wedged in an airline seat next to someone all the way. From Waterloo, you've got the choice of seat and the high turnover of passengers means that you're likely to get some space to yourself at least some of the time.

 

[Ash Bridge]

My folks have always driven to Cornwall by car, however, they've decided to take a leaf out of my book and go by train next year. I'll be interested to see whether they stick with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---.

I introduced mine and other close relatives and they're well and truly converted now, that's since we started out on 47s/mk2s through HSTs, and now Voyagers (1st class ofcourse) To be quite honest in all those years we've never had a bad journey, Voyagers included

 

[yorksrob]

I introduced mine and other close relatives and they're well and truly converted now, that's since we started out on 47s/mk2s through HSTs, and now Voyagers (1st class ofcourse) To be quite honest in all those years we've never had a bad journey, Voyagers included

Yes, its a shame they won't have the Mk 2's as they'd have preferred them.

 

[LateThanNever]

My folks have always driven to Cornwall by car, however, they've decided to take a leaf out of my book and go by train next year. I'll be interested to see whether they stick with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I do quite often, primarily because of the space and comfort. From Paddington you've got a good chance of being wedged in an airline seat next to someone all the way. From Waterloo, you've got the choice of seat and the high turnover of passengers means that you're likely to get some space to yourself at least some of the time.

I so agree.
And if the lighting is on in the Worst Train from Paddington you'd think they were interrogating you for not paying the fare!
Can't stand Souter but he does seem to allow well run (SWT)rains perhaps because he now has little control!

 

[yorksrob]

Can't stand Souter but he does seem to allow well run (SWT)rains perhaps because he now has little control!

Yes, I like to put it down to a good established team of railwaymen and well designed trains.

 

[charlee]

Yes! Great news about okehampton, it's the best for the entire region to be better connected. The journeys between Plymouth, Exeter, Tavistock and Okehmpton will all be highly traveled.

I'm from plymouth and I don't understand the MPs moaning, plymouth was never going to benefit massively from a new line anyways. Unless it was a fast line to Exeter. Who cares about 4 mins extra if you can actually travel to plymouth and Cornwall. As opposed to being cut off. Plymouth must have done something to warrant the negativity. :roll: it opens up plymouth to okehampton/tavistock. And if it is a continuation of Waterloo to exter. Gives an alternative London terminus and more destinations direct.

I'd be interested to know what would happen to the gunnislake line if this is built.

 

[Bald Rick]

The petrol heads don't realise their views are so blinkered that they think, if we can't get there in our car, then we can't get there at all:roll: Oh by the way if that sounded like a rant, it wasn't, honest

I love travelling by train. And I'm fortunate that I get it for free as does my family. But I would never consider taking the train to Devon or Cornwall for a holiday, for the simple reason that we couldn't carry a weeks worth of stuff required for a typical UK family summer holiday, and we would need the car down there anyway. This isn't being blinkered, it called pragmatism.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes! Great news about okehampton, it's the best for the entire region to be better connected. The journeys between Plymouth, Exeter, Tavistock and Okehmpton will all be highly traveled.

I'm from plymouth and I don't understand the MPs moaning, plymouth was never going to benefit massively from a new line anyways. Unless it was a fast line to Exeter. Who cares about 4 mins extra if you can actually travel to plymouth and Cornwall. As opposed to being cut off. Plymouth must have done something to warrant the negativity. :roll: it opens up plymouth to okehampton/tavistock. And if it is a continuation of Waterloo to exter. Gives an alternative London terminus and more destinations direct.

I'd be interested to know what would happen to the gunnislake line if this is built.

Well, these MPs are just showing their true colours at the end of the day aren't they? They are not bothered about the increased travel opportunities, not bothered about the increased resilience for Plymouth & Cornwall, and generally not bothered for the people they purport to represent. No,they're just bothered about themselves and retaining their seats at the end of the day, and I just hope they realise and stop throwing their toys out of the pram now, otherwise the Southwest may well end up with naff all yet again! By the way Yes, it's fantastic news! P.S sorry for the little rant there
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I love travelling by train. And I'm fortunate that I get it for free as does my family. But I would never consider taking the train to Devon or Cornwall for a holiday, for the simple reason that we couldn't carry a weeks worth of stuff required for a typical UK family summer holiday, and we would need the car down there anyway. This isn't being blinkered, it called pragmatism.

Yes Rick, but have you tried Carrymy luggage door to door pickup?It's a brilliant service, the more items you send the bigger the discount, plus with FGW,XC etc. you get a further 15% off (I don't work for them by the way) also you can get a very reasonable rate car rental at Exeter St David's or for that matter Torquay or Plymouth etc. and I'm speaking from personal experience. You should give it a try, I'm sure you'd be very happy!

 

[Rapidash]

Well, seeing as this helps Torbay not a jot in the event of dawlish being shut, perhaps the franchisee could be given incentives to use something better than bloody ancient Olympians as rail replacements?!

And before someone suggests I go via Plymouth to get to Exeter: :roll:

 

[WelshBluebird]

I love travelling by train. And I'm fortunate that I get it for free as does my family. But I would never consider taking the train to Devon or Cornwall for a holiday, for the simple reason that we couldn't carry a weeks worth of stuff required for a typical UK family summer holiday, and we would need the car down there anyway. This isn't being blinkered, it called pragmatism.

Other people seem to manage it. And of course the fact people also manage to take two weeks worth of stuff on an Airplane to spain!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Chancellor-offers-South-West-crumbs-rail-MP-tells/story-25092749-detail/story.html

Sadly no announcement in Autumn Statement.

 

[Bald Rick]

Other people seem to manage it. And of course the fact people also manage to take two weeks worth of stuff on an Airplane to spain!

The beauty of Spain is that you don't have to allow for the vagaries of the British summer weather.
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Yes Rick, but have you tried Carrymy luggage door to door pickup?It's a brilliant service, the more items you send the bigger the discount, plus with FGW,XC etc. you get a further 15% off (I don't work for them by the way) also you can get a very reasonable rate car rental at Exeter St David's or for that matter Torquay or Plymouth etc. and I'm speaking from personal experience. You should give it a try, I'm sure you'd be very happy!

£60 a case (just checked) + £250 car hire to avoid a 4 hour car journey and £50 worth of diesel? Also the luggage company doesn't do weekends (engineering works presumably )

Niche market I fancy.

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't think that railway investment needs to be justified by large family holiday trips. Clearly the economics don't make it easy and @BaldRick has explained why (and he even gets free tickets). However, I believe the West country coastline has been trashed by the 1930-50s caravan development and the new roads to carry them have similarly despoiled the environment in many places. It's all been done now, but I think that there is a portion of the holiday market that is available to rail for people who use B and B instead of caravans and this is especially true of North Devon, where more environmentally favourable tourism is encouraged by the local authorities.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The beauty of Spain is that you don't have to allow for the vagaries of the British summer weather.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


£60 a case (just checked) + £250 car hire to avoid a 4 hour car journey and £50 worth of diesel? Also the luggage company doesn't do weekends (engineering works presumably )

Niche market I fancy.

Well for us this summer it actually worked out at £21 per case (Return) and car £110 per week. I've just done a check for Sat. 6/12/14 - 13/12/14 and it came up under £90 using a discount code (which they frequently send) This is from St David's Station and return, a lightweight roll up waterproof is the only additional item in June, we are afterall talking about Cornwall, not Scandinavia!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think that railway investment needs to be justified by large family holiday trips. Clearly the economics don't make it easy and @BaldRick has explained why (and he even gets free tickets). However, I believe the West country coastline has been trashed by the 1930-50s caravan development and the new roads to carry them have similarly despoiled the environment in many places. It's all been done now, but I think that there is a portion of the holiday market that is available to rail for people who use B and B instead of caravans and this is especially true of North Devon, where more environmentally favourable tourism is encouraged by the local authorities.

I agree with your point about caravan sites mobile and static, I also think those that tour with a caravan like the idea of of bringing all the things they like to have at home with them, probably bring most of their food and supplies too, so not very good for the local economy of the place where they are holidaying. Each to their own I suppose. We tend to stay in self catering cottages, or if in somewhere like Looe or similar, it would be an apartment, also if there then a car would not be necessary.

 

[21C101]

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Chancellor-offers-South-West-crumbs-rail-MP-tells/story-25092749-detail/story.html

Sadly no announcement in Autumn Statement.

But a quote from Gideon in response to a moaning labour mp in Plymouth along the lines of. "It's the LSWR route or nothing. Get over it."

I might start to actually like him if he keeps this up.

 

[swt_passenger]

But a quote from Gideon in response to a moaning labour mp in Plymouth along the lines of. "It's the LSWR route or nothing. Get over it."

I might start to actually like him if he keeps this up.

Perhaps he chould have emphasised that if the different MPs in the middle and at the other end of Devon can't agree on what they actually want then there's an easy answer...

 

[Tobbes]

I'd be interested to know what would happen to the Gunnislake line if this is built.

Presumably it depends quite heavily on how the ex-LSWR main is rebuilt. If it is a double track mainline (unlikely), then there'd be plenty of capacity for the Gunnislakes to run direct to Plymouth. More likely, presumably, is a situation in which the Gunnislake service is locked in and operates as a shuttle all day to Bere Alston where you'd change for Plymouth (or Okehampton, Exeter, Salisbury, or Waterloo).

 

[21C101]

Presumably it depends quite heavily on how the ex-LSWR main is rebuilt. If it is a double track mainline (unlikely), then there'd be plenty of capacity for the Gunnislakes to run direct to Plymouth. More likely, presumably, is a situation in which the Gunnislake service is locked in and operates as a shuttle all day to Bere Alston where you'd change for Plymouth (or Okehampton, Exeter, Salisbury, or Waterloo).

The latest plan I've heard for the Bere Alston - Tavistock reopening (which is a separate, developer funded scheme to the reopening up to Okehampton) is that there will be a Gunnislake Shuttle "locked in" to a bay platform in the same way that the Maidenhead - Marlow line operates in the peak hours at Bourne End.

This will enable an hourly service to Tavistock. A total of three trains would be needed, two for Tavistock and one for the Gunnislake Shuttle.

There will also be a loop and new platform at St Budeax Victoria Road, presumably so a late running train from Tavy to Plymouth wouldn't cause a train heading to Tavy to be stuck on the main line until it crossed it.
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Perhaps he chould have emphasised that if the different MPs in the middle and at the other end of Devon can't agree on what they actually want then there's an easy answer...

I doubt he is going to take much notice of the only two Labour MPs west of Bristol. The couple of dozen Tory and Libdem MPs in the area are supportive.

I wouldn't mind betting that if he had announced a Dawlish diversion the said Labour MPs would suddenly have develop a great concern about being unable to reach Dartmoor from Plymouth by rail......not that I'm cynical or anything.

I'm also wondering given the plan to include the council and local enterprise bodies in the new feasibility study whether the reopened line, at least north of Tavistock will be part of Network Rail or owned by the county council and operated by D&CR, which I suspect would result in a much lower cost to build and operate (pure speculation on my part though)

 

[po8crg]

I'm inclined to the view that if a DAL is built now, it will be done on the cheap and the UK will regret it in a few decades, but the LSWR line can be sensibly done on the cheap, offers railway service to people that don't have it at present, can be upgraded piecemeal once it's open (adding passing loops, double-tracking, speed improvements, rebuilding Meldon Viaduct, etc) where a DAL tunnel that's in the wrong place or dug to the wrong bore or whatever, we're stuck for centuries.

There's still more demand long-term than the coastal line can cope with, and there's no way to add passing loops or four-tracking along the sea wall, so an inland route from Newton Abbot to Exeter with no intermediate stations would still make sense to get the express trains off the sea wall and allow the local services to become much more frequent. Not building it now may see it done as part of a larger project to improve LDHS services in the SW, which would presumably have the budget to do the job properly. We can't build the budget for a full-scale LDHS improvement to Devon and Cornwall on the back of Dawlish alone, but doing it the other way around is far more sensible.

 

[The Ham]

I'm inclined to the view that if a DAL is built now, it will be done on the cheap and the UK will regret it in a few decades, but the LSWR line can be sensibly done on the cheap, offers railway service to people that don't have it at present, can be upgraded piecemeal once it's open (adding passing loops, double-tracking, speed improvements, rebuilding Meldon Viaduct, etc) where a DAL tunnel that's in the wrong place or dug to the wrong bore or whatever, we're stuck for centuries.

There's still more demand long-term than the coastal line can cope with, and there's no way to add passing loops or four-tracking along the sea wall, so an inland route from Newton Abbot to Exeter with no intermediate stations would still make sense to get the express trains off the sea wall and allow the local services to become much more frequent. Not building it now may see it done as part of a larger project to improve LDHS services in the SW, which would presumably have the budget to do the job properly. We can't build the budget for a full-scale LDHS improvement to Devon and Cornwall on the back of Dawlish alone, but doing it the other way around is far more sensible.

That's pretty much my view. The only thing to add is that because total passenger numbers to/from Plymouth will be able to increase. This then means that it becomes better value to build a route which is more direct and faster than the current DAL options.