Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[jmc100]

I have been reading some reports of debates relating to the recent bad weather and the problems it caused. Here is an extract from one of the debates that also mentions some of the points raised in this thread.

26 Feb 2014 : Column 105WH

Westminster Hall

Wednesday 26 February 2014

[Mr Jim Hood in the Chair]

Weather Events (South West England)
10.13 am

Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I also thank the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) for obtaining this important debate.

I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), who said that the Dawlish line needs to be restored. As well as connecting to Cornwall, the line is a great tourist attraction. It is a lovely railway line to travel along. Given that it is 150 years old, it is amazing that it is still there. The line is a remarkable achievement of Brunel, who was such a great engineer. Restoring it is important.

We also have to consider a complementary line that would potentially make it much faster to get from Plymouth and Cornwall up to London. We already have a second line that comes from Exeter up to Waterloo; it runs through my constituency. We have a loop at Axminster, but we need a loop at Honiton, which would help. We also ought to consider twin-tracking the railway all the way down from London to Exeter because that would give us a line to Exeter. Furthermore, we should consider whether we can go across from Exeter towards Okehampton and down to Plymouth. We could try to go across Dartmoor itself, but that might not be easy.

Those things have to be done, and I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter), who pointed out that billions of pounds are to be spent on HS2. Every time I have been through the Lobby to vote for HS2, I have held my nose for the simple reason that I did not want to support it. If we do not see real and meaningful investment in the west country, it is our duty to speak up and stand up for our constituents, and I believe we will. I look forward to my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) reinforcing that point in a minute.

It would seem that Mr Neil Parish is not aware that the trackbed is still intact over Dartmoor and for most of the northern route between Meldon and Bere Alston. The good thing is that MPs are now awake to the issues of rail transport infrastructure in the South-West and how it can be improved.

Ref: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm140226/halltext/140226h0001.htm

 

[yorksrob]

At least Mr Parish isn't rubbishing the Okehampton route out of hand. He seems to have a good grasp of the issues.

 

[HowardGWR]

It would seem that Mr Neil Parish is not aware that the trackbed is still intact over Dartmoor and for most of the northern route between Meldon and Bere Alston. The good thing is that MPs are now awake to the issues of rail transport infrastructure in the South-West and how it can be improved.

The northern LSWR route hardly touches the Dartmoor NP, and where it does, there is already a busy A386 road (which it would relieve). The NPA has reacted positively and also it's a reinstatement, not a new imposition like the A30 was.

 

[jmc100]

At least Mr Parish isn't rubbishing the Okehampton route out of hand. He seems to have a good grasp of the issues.

I just hope all the other MPs who have a vested interest in the Dawlish problem have a good grasp of the issues as well.

Members may be interested in a web page I have just found. It shows some excellent photographic material of the storm and the repair work by Network Rail.

Credit: Digital photography by Colin J. Marsden.

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/dawlish-sea-wall-damage.html

 

[LateThanNever]

If you are in part referencing my suggestion to provide a chord from Hele to Pinhoe, then perhaps you've misunderstood one of the objectives. The flooding from Stoke Canon to Cowley Bridge that you refer to is the very problem I am proposing provide a means of avoiding!

Do I think my proposal will happen? No (this is Devon). Is this a forum? Yes. Do I think my proposal would have low environmental impact alongside the M5? Yes. Would it bring benefits greater than could currently be offered (eg the access to Exeter Central on a through service) to reopened stations at the rapidly expanding Wellington and Cullompton, which are already proposed? Yes.

Think your idea for connecting Hele and Pinhoe is very good. But it would mean Cowley Bridge would still have to be negotiated if going via the Okehampton line. Mind you they are allegedly starting £6-12m of cure so that should look after it! then the Okehampton route could provide the robust connection to Plymouth and be - or at least be capable of being - the main line. The Dawlish line would still be vulnerable, as however robust the construction, there is no avoiding the debris that is thrown up on to it in rough weather, or seemingly the landslips that fall down on to it.

I'm going to suggest that in bad weather all main line trains to Plymouth go via Okehampton and services to Torbay and all stations services are run on 'line of sight' à la Tram along the Dawlish/Teignmouth sea walls. This would limit the line's capacity but given that local trains only would be using it at least services could be maintained on some sort of regular basis rather than having to be shut down. It must be worth a try and if it proves too difficult then that will be the time for the Dawlish underground...

 

[Okey Red]

I don't know if anyone from the Okehampton/Tavistock area has been overly active in this thread but as an Okehampton resident I really hope there is still some hope for us an option as it seems there are a few people who prefer the other suggested routes.

Okehampton may not be huge with a population of circa 6000 I believe but we're in desperate need of investment. I'm sure you've all heard of our problems over the years with factories closing and even the Okehampton - Meldon service being suspended by the owners DCR (or BARS, or Iowa Pacific if you prefer). Thankfully, after much complaining by the general public and the DRSA (previously Friends of Dartmoor Railway), it was reinstated.

As mentioned in a previous post, it seems as the weekday service to Exeter has now been thrown into uncertainty with the franchise foul up, which I assume means the proposed Okehampton East station is also now up in the air with no guarantees by FGW they will run a service.

If, as it seems is a foregone conclusion that the Tavistock - Bere Alston link will be reinstated, It would be a great shame if Okehampton is left as the missing link in the route. I've heard numbers being thrown around from £100M-£500M but until the report is completed I don't think it's fair to just throw us an option away. The summer Sunday service is almost always full, not just from the Okehampton direction. Many people seem to enjoy coming down from Exeter for a day on the moors, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would make use of a train towards Plymouth.
A return bus journey from Okehampton - Plymouth is around 4 hours. A ridiculous amount of time given the actual distance. I haven't visited Plymouth for over 4 years for this very reason but I would very much love to use a service which could get me to the coast easier than going up to Exeter on a bus and back down again. Also the sheer amount of unemployment in my area would benefit from a constant rail link to either Exeter or Plymouth, temporary seasonal work for the students etc.

I'm well aware of other people's opinions on using the money on other projects such as a DAL, but I'm afraid I'm going to have my hold my hand up and say I'm biased and I really want to see some life come back to this struggling area but sadly I think it could be decades before we are given our railway back. :cry:

 

[HSTEd]

A summer sunday service is what? 5% of the days of the year?

You can hardly justify a new line of such length and expense on that basis.

 

[LateThanNever]

A summer sunday service is what? 5% of the days of the year?

You can hardly justify a new line of such length and expense on that basis.

Don't think it's supposed to be a 'justification' - it is contributory to an indication of demand.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know if anyone from the Okehampton/Tavistock area has been overly active in this thread but as an Okehampton resident I really hope there is still some hope for us an option as it seems there are a few people who prefer the other suggested routes.

Okehampton may not be huge with a population of circa 6000 I believe but we're in desperate need of investment. I'm sure you've all heard of our problems over the years with factories closing and even the Okehampton - Meldon service being suspended by the owners DCR (or BARS, or Iowa Pacific if you prefer). Thankfully, after much complaining by the general public and the DRSA (previously Friends of Dartmoor Railway), it was reinstated.

As mentioned in a previous post, it seems as the weekday service to Exeter has now been thrown into uncertainty with the franchise foul up, which I assume means the proposed Okehampton East station is also now up in the air with no guarantees by FGW they will run a service.

If, as it seems is a foregone conclusion that the Tavistock - Bere Alston link will be reinstated, It would be a great shame if Okehampton is left as the missing link in the route. I've heard numbers being thrown around from £100M-£500M but until the report is completed I don't think it's fair to just throw us an option away. The summer Sunday service is almost always full, not just from the Okehampton direction. Many people seem to enjoy coming down from Exeter for a day on the moors, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would make use of a train towards Plymouth.
A return bus journey from Okehampton - Plymouth is around 4 hours. A ridiculous amount of time given the actual distance. I haven't visited Plymouth for over 4 years for this very reason but I would very much love to use a service which could get me to the coast easier than going up to Exeter on a bus and back down again. Also the sheer amount of unemployment in my area would benefit from a constant rail link to either Exeter or Plymouth, temporary seasonal work for the students etc.

I'm well aware of other people's opinions on using the money on other projects such as a DAL, but I'm afraid I'm going to have my hold my hand up and say I'm biased and I really want to see some life come back to this struggling area but sadly I think it could be decades before we are given our railway back. :cry:

A very timely and well considered post.

You could always write to your local Councillors and MP. The more people do so, the more they are likely to counter the arguments of the anti's, (who sadly are doing their best to get the ear of the Government at the moment).

 

[The Ham]

If the DAL gives a time saving of 10 minutes for about 12,000 people a day that's a saving of 2,000 hours a day. Whilst a time saving of at least 3 hours from Okehamton to Plymouth would only need 667 people a day to bring the same level of cost benefit.

Although it maybe possible that such numbers between Okehampton and Plymouth may not be that high there wouldn't need to be mmuch in other benefits to make up the difference.

 

[Okey Red]

A very timely and well considered post.

You could always write to your local Councillors and MP. The more people do so, the more they are likely to counter the arguments of the anti's, (who sadly are doing their best to get the ear of the Government at the moment).

Thank you, as new member I wanted to try and get started on the right foot.

A few of us are using social media to keep the interest alive. A facebook group is sharing any information of note and our local paper the Okehampton Times has a had a few comments from both Okehampton's MP and our border constituency's MP Geoffrey Cox (the site is horrifically formatted sadly)http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=4967

West Devon Council has been pushing for an expansion of Okehampton they are calling the 'East of Okehampton Masterplan' which utilises the proposed Okehampton East station. Then there is there involvement with the Kilbride project on the Bere Alston - Tavistock line so hopefully the fact they seem to want heavy investment in the area is a positive.

Plymouth is practically inaccessible to people like myself without a car which is shame as according to Google maps, it's approx 31 miles by car.

I just find it staggering that Central Devon can be completely disconnected to any major rail line when it's an area that is increasing in size at a steady rate.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think Okehampton deserves a rail link, but just an upgrade of the one to Exeter to provide more services not a link the other way to Plymouth. I think the same of Tavistock but swap Exeter and Plymouth.

If we need an inland route i think the routes that just cut off the sea wall are the best to follow. I see no reason to follow the routes made by the Victorians just because they are there. If we need an alternative make it an improvement, inland just cutting off the sea wall.

I am not against heritage etc reopening old routes and the romance of it all. I volunteer at a preserved railway. But we need to avoid following old routes just because. Only really the ones that should never ever have closed have reopened.

 

[yorksrob]

Thank you, as new member I wanted to try and get started on the right foot.

A few of us are using social media to keep the interest alive. A facebook group is sharing any information of note and our local paper the Okehampton Times has a had a few comments from both Okehampton's MP and our border constituency's MP Geoffrey Cox (the site if horrifically formatted sadly)http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=4967

West Devon Council has been pushing for an expansion of Okehampton they are calling the 'East of Okehampton Masterplan' which utilises the proposed Okehampton East station. Then there is there involvement with the Kilbride project on the Bere Alston - Tavistock line so hopefully the fact they seem to want heavy investment in the area is a positive.

Plymouth is practically inaccessible to people like myself without a car which is shame as according to Google maps, it's approx 31 miles by car.

I just find it staggering that Central Devon can be completely disconnected to any major rail line when it's an area that is increasing in size at a steady rate.

That's brilliant news. I shall keep an eye on that with interest.

 

[LateThanNever]

I don't know if anyone from the Okehampton/Tavistock area has been overly active in this thread but as an Okehampton resident I really hope there is still some hope for us an option as it seems there are a few people who prefer the other suggested routes.

Okehampton may not be huge with a population of circa 6000 I believe but we're in desperate need of investment. I'm sure you've all heard of our problems over the years with factories closing and even the Okehampton - Meldon service being suspended by the owners DCR (or BARS, or Iowa Pacific if you prefer). Thankfully, after much complaining by the general public and the DRSA (previously Friends of Dartmoor Railway), it was reinstated.

As mentioned in a previous post, it seems as the weekday service to Exeter has now been thrown into uncertainty with the franchise foul up, which I assume means the proposed Okehampton East station is also now up in the air with no guarantees by FGW they will run a service.

If, as it seems is a foregone conclusion that the Tavistock - Bere Alston link will be reinstated, It would be a great shame if Okehampton is left as the missing link in the route. I've heard numbers being thrown around from £100M-£500M but until the report is completed I don't think it's fair to just throw us an option away. The summer Sunday service is almost always full, not just from the Okehampton direction. Many people seem to enjoy coming down from Exeter for a day on the moors, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would make use of a train towards Plymouth.
A return bus journey from Okehampton - Plymouth is around 4 hours. A ridiculous amount of time given the actual distance. I haven't visited Plymouth for over 4 years for this very reason but I would very much love to use a service which could get me to the coast easier than going up to Exeter on a bus and back down again. Also the sheer amount of unemployment in my area would benefit from a constant rail link to either Exeter or Plymouth, temporary seasonal work for the students etc.

I'm well aware of other people's opinions on using the money on other projects such as a DAL, but I'm afraid I'm going to have my hold my hand up and say I'm biased and I really want to see some life come back to this struggling area but sadly I think it could be decades before we are given our railway back. :cry:

If you are going to Exeter by bus you presumably could go to Tavistock by bus then change for Plymouth - only 2 hours! (Still ridiculous of course and, like you, will be writing to the MP to 'suggest' the Okehampton route!)
Okehampton has expanded considerably in the last few years and may I suggest you indicate to Devon county council that another Exeter Park & Ride at the Ide interchange of the A30 is not the greatest idea as is likely to further increase the bus journey time to Exeter - the rail route is far preferable!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the DAL gives a time saving of 10 minutes for about 12,000 people a day that's a saving of 2,000 hours a day. Whilst a time saving of at least 3 hours from Okehamton to Plymouth would only need 667 people a day to bring the same level of cost benefit.

Although it maybe possible that such numbers between Okehampton and Plymouth may not be that high there wouldn't need to be mmuch in other benefits to make up the difference.

So rather fear the saving of 3 hours is probably an exaggeration but 1 hour is easily possible! Do they compare bus times or car times?

 

[yorksrob]

I think Okehampton deserves a rail link, but just an upgrade of the one to Exeter to provide more services not a link the other way to Plymouth. I think the same of Tavistock but swap Exeter and Plymouth.

If we need an inland route i think the routes that just cut off the sea wall are the best to follow. I see no reason to follow the routes made by the Victorians just because they are there. If we need an alternative make it an improvement, inland just cutting off the sea wall.

I am not against heritage etc reopening old routes and the romance of it all. I volunteer at a preserved railway. But we need to avoid following old routes just because. Only really the ones that should never ever have closed have reopened.

The country needs real, useful, workaday rail services more than heritage railways.

Just because Dawlish is the most vulnerable part of the main line, it doesn't mean that it is the only part that will be closed.

I take the recent closure of Taunton - Exeter as an example. A long closure due to planned engineering works followed by flooding. Two different disruptions in two different places for two different reasons.

Okehampton should be on a modern inter-regional through route.

By the way, this line should never, ever have closed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The country needs real, useful, workaday rail services more than heritage railways.

Just because Dawlish is the most vulnerable part of the main line, it doesn't mean that it is the only part that will be closed.

I take the recent closure of Taunton - Exeter as an example. A long closure due to planned engineering works followed by flooding. Two different disruptions in two different places for two different reasons.

Okehampton should be on a modern inter-regional through route.

By the way, this line should never, ever have closed.

That is not the point i was making, just saying i am not against opening old lines.

Okay then, well the route between Sheffield and Barnsley sometimes closes i want to reopen the old South Yorkshire Railway line..... ? Which other part of the route between Exeter and Plymouth closes more regularly than any other part of the country?

I honestly do not think it should be.

Again i disagree, i think the Teign Valley line should have been kept as a diversion though, it was reasonable to predict one day the sea wall would fail.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's easy to be wise after the event. Hindsight.

 

[yorksrob]

That is not the point i was making, just saying i am not against opening old lines.

Okay then, well the route between Sheffield and Barnsley sometimes closes i want to reopen the old South Yorkshire Railway line..... ? Which other part of the route between Exeter and Plymouth closes more regularly than any other part of the country?

It doesn't have to close more regularly than any other part of the country. The vast majority of other routes have an alternative. The railways between Sheffield, Barnsley, Wakefield etc are a dense network of lines where you can generally get where you need to be by another route.

We're talking ordinary works and disruption.

I honestly do not think it should be.

Again i disagree, i think the Teign Valley line should have been kept as a diversion though, it was reasonable to predict one day the sea wall would fail.

So better to have a poorly built meandering country branch line that doesn't fulfill any wider regional role, doesn't serve anywhere of note (sorry Chudleigh - purely on size) and doesn't even ensure that there is always a route available to Exeter and the West. Poor call IMO.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's easy to be wise after the event. Hindsight.

True, i just think trusting the sea wall was a mistake... Its not like they have really spent much money improving it since they closed all the alternatives. I am not one to usually join the criticise Beeching wagon, but in this case, even under his remit, i think he made an error.

 

[tbtc]

So now, to justify an Okehampton route (and the importance of what a big place it is, without a railway station etc), we've moved from trying to downgrade the line for Newton Abbott/ Torbay to trying to build a line that also avoids Exeter?

What next?

Balderdash. You know as well as I do that our entire railway network is hydebound by poor policy and disasterous decisions taken sixty years ago

Time to forget about "sixty years ago" and concentrate on the best solutions for the next generation, rather than being hidebound by what once was

Routes which could easily support a well used service are untenable simply pecouse of the disproportionate capital costs of reinstating them

Of course, but then there are shops/ businesses that could cover their costs if someone paid for their set up costs (and the initial unprofitable period). Nothing unique about some marginal railways.

Same goes for non-Victorian railways too - once routes like Crossrail/ Crossrail2/ HS2 are up and running, the marginal costs won't be so bad - its all about getting things up and running. Some things have a better case for that than others though.

Yet we can afford seven miles and seven chains of brand new railway fot no additional benefit than a marginal reduction in journey times

I thought you wanted resilience? A Dawlish Avoiding Line would be much more resilient than the current line. Good thing?

But the big difference is that a Dawlish Avoiding Line would benefit thousands of people by giving them a faster journey every day (not just when the cost route is closed).

An Okehampton route would only benefit large numbers of people on the "1%" of days when the coastal route is closed (a Tavistock shuttle would benefit a decent number of people every day, of course).

I am amazed at the comments about a Cowley Bridge advoiding line, a chord from Rewe, a Dawlish Advoiding Line, DAL.. very catchy.. tunnelling under Haldon Hill etc etc..

None of this will ever happen..
when the discussion about reopening the Okehampton line first started it was established that there was no money forthcoming..

I would suggest that people do a bit more research into the area before posting such rediculous comments.. looking at google earth does not make you an expert on the geography of the area..

I live very close to Cowley Bridge, in the village of Stoke Canon.. the whole area is prone to flooding but tge incident two years ago when the line was breached was caused by one factor alone.. the whole of the Exe Valley flooded because the river had been silting up .. If the Exe, like so many others, was dredged it wouldnt have happened..
Where does anyone suppose the hundreds of tonnes of ballast that got washed away is now?
Thats right, on the riverbed a few hundred yards downstream..
There is just no way a chord will be built to advoid St Davids..

There is more froth here than an explosion in a washing up liquid factory..

I agree with you

If the DAL gives a time saving of 10 minutes for about 12,000 people a day that's a saving of 2,000 hours a day. Whilst a time saving of at least 3 hours from Okehamton to Plymouth would only need 667 people a day to bring the same level of cost benefit.

Although it maybe possible that such numbers between Okehampton and Plymouth may not be that high there wouldn't need to be mmuch in other benefits to make up the difference.

How many people are going to take the train from Okehampton to Plymouth every day though?

I've had a look at the First/ Western Greyhound/ Plymouth Citybus websites and haven't spotted a direct service (correct me if I'm wrong?) - if there's no market to fill a couple of minibuses then is there a market for several hundred people to travel by train every day?

Whereas Tavistock to Plymouth has a pretty regular bus service, which suggests it could sustain a regular train service.

I think Okehampton deserves a rail link, but just an upgrade of the one to Exeter to provide more services not a link the other way to Plymouth. I think the same of Tavistock but swap Exeter and Plymouth.

If we need an inland route i think the routes that just cut off the sea wall are the best to follow. I see no reason to follow the routes made by the Victorians just because they are there. If we need an alternative make it an improvement, inland just cutting off the sea wall.

I am not against heritage etc reopening old routes and the romance of it all. I volunteer at a preserved railway. But we need to avoid following old routes just because. Only really the ones that should never ever have closed have reopened.

Agreed. Especially the bits in bold!

 

[yorksrob]

Time to forget about "sixty years ago" and concentrate on the best solutions for the next generation, rather than being hidebound by what once was

I don't believe we should be hidebound by a railway network that was specified for the 1960's when railways were seen as a dying technology. No one in this day and age would have closed the Okehampton route.

And the best solution for this generation is one that brings in the most benefit i.e. to local people and to longer distance travelers. Oh, and the fact that the lions share of the infrastructure is still intact is a bonus.

Of course, but then there are shops/ businesses that could cover their costs if someone paid for their set up costs (and the initial unprofitable period). Nothing unique about some marginal railways.

I can't think of many shops or businesses that are so vital to an area as the local railway station. Local newsagent - there's usually another one. Sausage roll factory, there are other people making sausage rolls, Gyms, there's usually another one.

Same goes for non-Victorian railways too - once routes like Crossrail/ Crossrail2/ HS2 are up and running, the marginal costs won't be so bad - its all about getting things up and running. Some things have a better case for that than others though.

Fair point. Can't disagree with that.

I thought you wanted resilience? A Dawlish Avoiding Line would be much more resilient than the current line. Good thing?

For me, resilience means that Cornwall and the West Country would almost always be accessible by train, in the same way that Exeter is pretty much always accessible (with the exception of the very short period of time when a landslip at Crediton closed both of the routes). A Dawlish avoiding line simply wouldn't provide that sort of resilience.

But the big difference is that a Dawlish Avoiding Line would benefit thousands of people by giving them a faster journey every day (not just when the cost route is closed).

Yeah, five minutes each time. Big deal.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Buses v Trains...
Pre Beeching a lot of people traveled between Fowey and Lostwithiel, and a few from Golant.
A minibus (Duchy bus) replaced the service. Within a few years passengers dwindled, and the bus finished. With having to endure a much longer bus journey, most either relocated, on found employment elsewhere, or used the car. Not an easy journey!
The 'towns' that would benefit most from the Okehampton route would be Plymouth, second Exeter. then Okehampton, Tavistock, Launceston N Cornwall area, Bere Alston, etc.

 

[LateThanNever]

So now, to justify an Okehampton route (and the importance of what a big place it is, without a railway station etc), we've moved from trying to downgrade the line for Newton Abbott/ Torbay to trying to build a line that also avoids Exeter?

What next?
Why not if trains split?
And (whisper it quietly) I live there!"
By the way Okehampton does have a railway station - albeit one that has a railway service only on summer Sundays subsidised? (it's so popular I wonder?) by Devon county council.

Am a Benthamite - greatest happiness of greatest number...
Of course, but then there are shops/ businesses that could cover their costs if someone paid for their set up costs (and the initial unprofitable period). Nothing unique about some marginal railways.

True but roads seem to be different.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The mention of avoiding routes is guaranteed to bring forth many postings on this website and this particular one that has already gained a new acronym to the collection and indeed is one that was most certain to engender a lively and lengthy posting debate.

 

[jmc100]

Just checked the Dawlish webcam site and states 'event ended'.

I wonder what's going on with the live streaming although recordings of daily events are still available.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Two of the three Webcams available were offline this AM. All are now back online. Two photo webcams and one video webcam.

 

[jmc100]

Two of the three Webcams available were offline this AM. All are now back online. Two photo webcams and one video webcam.

Thanks for that. I notice that the livestream webcam is back online.

Are the two photo webcams available at the same site?

 

[HowardGWR]

Two of the three Webcams available were offline this AM. All are now back online. Two photo webcams and one video webcam.

It would be very helpful if you could list the links please. I have only this one.

http://www.siteeyelive.com/monitor/bbcdawlish/camputerb86.jpg

 

[YorkshireBear]

It would be very helpful if you could list the links please. I have only this one.

http://www.siteeyelive.com/monitor/bbcdawlish/camputerb86.jpg

One is the Network Rail page on Dawlish repairs which has a different webcam that takes pictures of the site. The photo at top of page changes.

The other is RailCams Dawlish beach Cam which is not focused exactly on the site.

I cannot link as i am in uni, but if you have not found them, or no one else links them i will do when i get home.

Ta.

 

[The Ham]

But the big difference is that a Dawlish Avoiding Line would benefit thousands of people by giving them a faster journey every day (not just when the cost route is closed).

An Okehampton route would only benefit large numbers of people on the "1%" of days when the coastal route is closed (a Tavistock shuttle would benefit a decent number of people every day, of course).

...

How many people are going to take the train from Okehampton to Plymouth every day though?

I've had a look at the First/ Western Greyhound/ Plymouth Citybus websites and haven't spotted a direct service (correct me if I'm wrong?) - if there's no market to fill a couple of minibuses then is there a market for several hundred people to travel by train every day?

Whereas Tavistock to Plymouth has a pretty regular bus service, which suggests it could sustain a regular train service.

Buses only go so far at indicating whether a rail service is viable. Especially if, as has been pointed out, a bus to Exeter and then to Plymouth is faster than the direct bus was (although over half the bus services take between 2.25 hours and 3 hours with there being about a 2 hour gap between those being as quick as 2 hours).

If there was a service which got people from Okehampton to Plymouth in (say) 45 minutes then that would mean that it would be quicker to use the train than drive (even 55 minutes would make it comparable) whilst going by bus is at least twice as long. That would attract a lot more people to use the train than currently use the bus.

Again, although the DAL is likely to be faster than the existing route, it is not going to be by very much. Therefore you do not need many people making a significant time saving to offset that advantage. If the route through Okehampton can achieve a journey time of comparable to that of the existing route then, even on the two hour bus journey to Plymouth from Okehampton that could be a journey time saving of about 1.25 hours.

As I said previously it is unlikely to offset all the benefit of a 10 minutes* saving on the DAL. However it could make enough of a difference that the route through Okehampton has a better business case than the case for the DAL, especially given the other advantages which the route through Okehampton could have (including the possibility that it could give the DAL a run for its money).


*Although that is assuming that 10 minutes is achievable. Given that an average speed of 90mph over 8 miles is a time saving of 2 minutes over a train travelling an average speed of 60mph over the same length. Even an average speed of 120mph only saves 4 minutes. Therefore for the just over 7 miles of new track to save 10 minutes of journey time the trains would have to be timetabled to run at 120mph AND cut 6 miles off the length of existing route.

This could be achievable if the DAL went almost straight between Exeter and Newton Abbot, however this is not one of the options listed by NR in their documentation about the options being looked at. As such it is likely that any journey time savings from the schemes being looked at by NR would be less than this.