Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[backontrack]

Any direct line between Exeter and Plymouth would most sensibly follow the route of the A38 road skirting Dartmoor rather than burrowing under it! Torbay could be served by using the Heathfield branch to Newton Abbot. Nevertheless it would require some hefty engineering features including a 2 mile tunnel under Haldon Hill (which is greensand rather than granite) and a high-level bridge over the River Dart at Buckfastleigh. This is fantasy stuff and won't happen any time soon - re-opening the LSW line via Okehampton is a much more realistic and achievable option,and at least provides an emergency diversion. The Teign Valley line is a complete non-starter*, being lightly constructed and steeply graded whilst the formation is obliterated by the A38 at Chudleigh Knighton and the A30 at Alphington.

Yes, but it's nice to fantasise about...

*emphasis mine*

 

[HSTEd]

Plymouth does not have land, at least not after its already planned eastern extension is completed, unless the scenery of West and South Devon is to be totally trashed. Exeter has land and if Cranbrook new town area were expanded, it could make Exeter the goal for your HS line. There is no earthly economic reason to urbanise further west than Exeter and there never was IMO.

There is an entire county that is so poor it gets EU convergence funding.
And what about the scenery around Exeter?

Some scenery is going to be 'trashed' whatever you do.
Continuing west improves transport access to all of Cornwall and South Devon, allowing them to function as part of England rather being cut adrift and as far from London as Armenia is in travel time terms.

 

[Zoe]

I'm not sure "it's the first city" makes any sense either. On a trip from London you're going to be passing through places like Reading or Bristol, which are probably more desirable again than Exeter.

Bristol and Reading are a considerable distance from Plymouth. Exeter is 40 - 50 miles away and when arriving from the larger urban areas west of London like Bristol, Swindon and Reading you will always reach Exeter first and journeys to these places will be easier than from Plymouth, making Exeter a better location. If you want to live in Devon (I hear quite a few people say they would rather live in Devon than in a place like Bristol or Swindon) but travel to the larger cities often then Exeter will always be a better location since it's closer.

I still don't think you're getting my point. I agree that Exeter is in higher demand, but my point is that it is in higher demand because it is easier to get to. If it was made easier to get to Plymouth/Cornwall, it's very possible that the demand would increase/shift to it. I just don't agree with the argument that no improvement should be made towards Plymouth because there is currently not as much demand - the potential future should be the basis of investment.

Apart from the transport links I honestly don't see what's intrinsically special about Exeter compared to Plymouth.

I'm not convinced the demand will be there for Plymouth. I can't think of many reasons companies would choose to locate Plymouth over Exeter when Exeter will always be closer to the larger cities. John Lewis recently opened a store in Exeter and IKEA will be soon be opening a store in Exeter. Neither have plans for a Plymouth store. Clearly Exeter is seen is the more attractive location and I'm sure long distance transport links have much to do with whether people want to shop in IKEA or not.

 

[LateThanNever]

Bristol and Reading are a considerable distance from Plymouth. Exeter is 40 - 50 miles away and when arriving from the larger urban areas west of London like Bristol, Swindon and Reading you will always reach Exeter first and journies to the larger cities will be easier than Plymouth.

I'm not convinced the demand will be there for Plymouth. I can't think of many reasons companies would choose to locate Plymouth over Exeter when Exeter will always be closer to the larger cities.

Plymouth is double the population of Exeter so the potential demand is greater!

 

[sor]

Bristol and Reading are a considerable distance from Plymouth. Exeter is 40 - 50 miles away and when arriving from the larger urban areas west of London like Bristol, Swindon and Reading you will always reach Exeter first and journeys to these places will be easier than from Plymouth, making Exeter a better location.

But then if you were passing through those places you might set up shop there anyway because they're even closer to London and civilisation. Exeter is closer to 2 hours from London, Reading is more like 30 minutes. It's no coincidence that Reading and Bristol are doing even better than Exeter is.

Proximity to Plymouth doesn't matter here, proximity/time from London does. Exeter has better links to London, and it is economically in better shape.

I'm not convinced the demand will be there for Plymouth. I can't think of many reasons companies would choose to locate Plymouth over Exeter when Exeter will always be closer to the larger cities. John Lewis recently opened a store in Exeter and IKEA will be soon be opening a store in Exeter. Neither have plans for a Plymouth store. Clearly Exeter is seen is the more attractive location and I'm sure long distance transport links have much to do with whether people want to shop in IKEA or not.

This is again due to Exeter's current status. If Plymouth was as desirable as Exeter, they might choose to set up shop there (IKEA probably not, JL might). But again, you're looking at how things are now and assuming that it will never change if the conditions improved. A large and bulky operation like IKEA may also be looking at other factors like access to a motorway.

Exeter was obviously not considered worthy of a JL in years past, but something changed and they opened one. If you were in charge of planning for JL, you'd presumably have said "there's no John Lewis there now, but no one wants to go to our store in Bristol from Exeter, so we won't put one there as no one will use it". See what I'm trying to say? Someone obviously thought that improving access to John Lewis in Exeter would drum up more business. Just like how a better rail link to Plymouth may convince more companies to locate there and increase demand.

 

[Zoe]

But then if you were passing through those places you might set up shop there anyway because they're even closer to London and civilisation. Exeter is closer to 2 hours from London, Reading is more like 30 minutes. It's no coincidence that Reading and Bristol are doing even better than Exeter is.

Well I know of quite a few people that want to be significantly far away from the major urban areas like Reading and Bristol but at the same time still have easy access to them. If you live in Exeter it will always be a shorter commute to Bristol (or even London if you can afford it) than Plymouth.

 

[backontrack]

Well I know of quite a few people that want to be significantly far away from the major urban areas like Reading and Bristol but at the same time still have easy access to them. If you live in Exeter it will always be a shorter commute to Bristol (or even London if you can afford it) than Plymouth.

Plus if the Dawlish Sea Wall collapses you'll actually be able to get there.

 

[GORYORY]

Thanks to all for informative replies, but the basic problem is that Isambard Kingdom Brunel laid out the line to provide a reasonably level line for his atmospheric railway and the weight limits were low. Should all planning go into a direct line from Newton Abbot to Exeter, preferably in tunnel, after all, most of Brunel's wooden viaducts in Cornwall have been replaced so why are we continuing to use early 19th century technology. As to using the Bere Alston to Gunnislake route, I was under the impression the the reinstatement of the branch to Tavistock was to be relaid as a light railway.

I forgot to mention. What happens to the China Clay traffic or does Fowey get a new harbour development?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Article on BBC news website discussing alternatives to Dawlish.

How do you fix the Dawlish problem?
By Lauren Turner
BBC News

Repairs are getting under way, but will they be enough in the longer term?

This week, what some have long predicted came true as huge waves uprooted and washed away great chunks of track and brought parts of the sea wall crashing down.

Over the next six weeks, work is to be carried out on this precarious section of a vital rail line that connects Devon and Cornwall to the rest of the UK.

Will this just be a sticking plaster or is the answer now to move the line inland?

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin has said he will conduct a "rigorous review" of alternative rail routes to the South West of England.

Some warn it will take too long and prove too expensive to reroute this coastal section of the railway line, built by Isambard Kingdom Brunel in Victorian times.

Robin Gisby, managing director of network operations at Network Rail, says there needs to be a longer-term look at the line however - something many rail experts are calling for.


One of the solutions could involve taking a step back in time and reinstating the old Tavistock line.

Until 1968, following cuts approved by chairman of the British Transport Commission Richard Beeching, it was possible to travel from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock on a double-tracked line. Part of it still runs as the Dartmoor Railway, which runs special services on weekends, bank holidays and school holidays.

Halted by Hitler
Another possibility could involve rerouting trains along the former Teign Valley branch line, which ran inland from Exeter before rejoining the main line at Newton Abbot. Substantial work would be needed to restore the line, which closed in 1958.

Alternatively, rail chiefs could revisit a scheme to build an entirely new route which Hitler inadvertently put paid to.

"If you close it completely, you're losing a piece of glorious railway”

Sim Harris, managing editor of industry newspaper Railnews, explained that rerouting the line along an existing route, would be "highly feasible", but trains would have to change direction at Exeter and Plymouth, causing delays.

"There is another solution, which would have been ideal if Hitler had not got in the way," said Mr Harris. "Before the last war, the Great Western Railway bought some land, inland, between Newton Abbott and Exeter, which would have been splendid. But before they could actually do the work, war broke out. As it was nationalised after the war, the land was sold off again.

"So if it hadn't been for Hitler, we would have had that route - but that's history, and that's how it happened.

He suggests revisiting that scheme by buying a strip of land and building a new double-track railway.


260ft (80m) of sea wall and up to 150ft (46m) of track in Dawlish has been destroyed, Network Rail says
The Dawlish line could then be kept as a single track serving coastal communities, but mainline services would run on the new line.

"If you close it completely, you're losing a piece of glorious railway - and places like Teignmouth and Dawlish would lose their local service," he added.

Transport infrastructure expert John Disney of Nottingham Business School said Dawlish was "an accident waiting to happen".

"It was entirely predictable that at some time the sea was going to win the 'Battle of Dawlish' and sweep away Brunel's coastline railway," he said. "It is amazing that it has lasted until 2014, due mainly to Network Rail's excellent infrastructure maintenance regime."

Looking to the future, he said that reopening and modernising the inland line through Okehampton should be considered.

Five-year project
Dr Disney said: "Long-term serious consideration must now be given to reopening an alternative inland railway line through Devon closed during the Beeching era.


A Great Western Railway map from the 1930s shows just how many miles of track once criss-crossed Devon and Cornwall.
"While local campaigners have been fighting for this restoration for some time, there has been little Westminster support but the tide may now be turning."

Dr Disney estimated rerouting would take five years. Using existing track would be an obvious solution - but upgrading work would have to be carried out, he added.

"When we look at current rail projects, it's not inconceivable," he said. "It wouldn't be anything like as difficult as the Crossrail project in London and wouldn't be controversial like HS2."

Too important
Transport commentator Christian Wolmar said: "I think it's time to build a new railway and ultimately this will be clear".

"If this was the main line to Guildford, it would have been done a long time ago".

"I suspect the best thing is to reroute the train line through Tavistock and keep a single line through Dawlish.

"This is likely to happen again - we're getting one-in-a-hundred-year storms every year. Of course they have to repair it this time but it's too important a link for Cornwall.

"If this was the main line to Guildford, it would have been done a long time ago."

Speculating on the figures involved, he added: "If this is going to cost £50m to fix, you might as well spend £250m on building new track. In the long run, it will save money."

In 2011 when creating an alternative line was mooted, then-environment minister Lord Henley suggested it would cost £100m. He rejected this as being "far too expensive", however.

Holiday trade
Richard Clinnick, assistant editor at Rail magazine, said: "It's a situation now where this is something that seriously, seriously needs to be looked at. We could have another situation like the one we have at the moment, where Devon and Cornwall is cut off.

"There has been talk of doing away with the Dawlish line, but you can't do that. The line that is currently severed covers Dawlish and Teignmouth - and importantly, it also covers Torquay and Paignton, which are huge for the holiday trade."

With so many experts having apparently foreseen Dawlish's fate, the government will know it has some tough decisions to make about its future.

In the meantime, rail engineers will try to get trains moving again, while businesses in the region see millions of pounds of income disappear each day and rail travellers face ongoing disruption.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26068375

 

[Goatboy]

Plymouth did have an airport so the option for fast journey times to various destinations was available but it seems the city coud not generate enough demand for them to be vialble and so the airport closed. Exeter on the other hand is able to sustain an airport again suggesting that the demand for travel from Exeter is significantly higher.

It's more complicated than that. Plymouth airport was constrained by it's location and could not service jet aircraft, only regional turboprops. Exeter Airport does not have this problem and as a result services jet aircraft.

Effect of this was that service to and from Plymouth was limited to a handful of reasonably unhelpful destinations whereas many bucket and spade charter destinations are available from Exeter.

More people want to board a Thomson 737 to Benidorm than a turboprop to Gatwick or Aberdeen for reasons not related to airport location. This is why Plymouth no longer has an airport, not because Exeter is neccesarily a better location for the airport.

Exeter has demand for an airport and a dual 3 lane motorway. Plymouth only has demand for a 2 lane dual carriageway

The reason the M5 stops at Exeter is again terrain reasons - the A38 is very hilly and has numerous small entrance and exits. It is not suitable for conversion to Motorway standard and this is why the M5 had to stop at Exeter. Not because 'Exeter has demand for a dual 3 lane motorway.

Do you not think much of the demand on the M5 might be for the THREE seperate dual carriageways the M5 splits into once you pass Exeter?

One city of 120,000 people is not the centre of the South West. I'm beginning to think you've never visited Exeter if you think the sheer demand for it by itself fills an entire motorway and international airport as if the rest of the South West is empty...

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks to all for informative replies, but the basic problem is that Isambard Kingdom Brunel laid out the line to provide a reasonably level line for his atmospheric railway and the weight limits were low. Should all planning go into a direct line from Newton Abbot to Exeter, preferably in tunnel, after all, most of Brunel's wooden viaducts in Cornwall have been replaced so why are we continuing to use early 19th century technology. As to using the Bere Alston to Gunnislake route, I was under the impression the the reinstatement of the branch to Tavistock was to be relaid as a light railway.

Rather to my surprise, it appears that the atmospheric railway was considered ideal for steep gradients, and that is probably one reason why the line west of Newton Abbot is as steep as it is. Unfortunately Brunel didn't apply the same logic east of Newton Abbot, otherwise maybe the Teign Valley would be the main line today.

Answering a point someone made ages back, the reason the replacement buses are starting from Taunton instead of Tiverton is probably that the Whiteball blockade is still on.

 

[Kettledrum]

If re-opening the old route is such a winner, why has it not got anywhere before this incident? The way people are talking is that the BCR would be so astronomical that it is a certainty. It is still effectively building a new railway, structures, earthworks, signalling, track, stations, maintenance etc etc.... who is funding the upgrades to the road network as people drive to what this would effectively be park and rides on a secondary line. When the wall gets re-built and nothing major happens for a couple of years this is only going to quietly gather dust on a consultants shelf.

The answer you get depends what costs you put into the BCR calculation. If you included economic costs of the Dawlish line being unavailable for xx days or weeks each year, and the costs that are really needed to strengthen the sea defences properly and the costs to the economy in Cornwall and Devon by being cut off from London, the BCR becomes astronomical.

The reports I saw for the Oakhampton and Tavistock re-opening proposals never included these costs, yet these costs are real and have materialised.

 

[Goatboy]

If you included economic costs of the Dawlish line being unavailable for xx days or weeks each year

Except its not, is it? This is the bit I don't get about the constant screaming for a new line this week. The Dawlish line is almost never unavailable. Over the last 3 years there was perhaps one incident, a landslide fixed in a few days. The bigger problem over the last few years has been Cowly Bridge Junction, something thats now being totally ignored by the 'diversion now' crowd and would not factor in any diversion. I've travelled this route for many many years and only ONCE have I ever had to use an RRB to get around Dawlish. Countless times for other problems..

I don't get it. Why is anti-Dawlish so trendy all of a sudden?

 

[6Gman]

Could somebody who favours the old LSW route via Meldon please tell us how long the Exeter - Plymouth journey would take?

Rather a long time I suspect ......

But that's the nature of the route :-

Heading West from Exeter you head NE, then NW

Heading East from Plymouth you head W, then N

Just doesn't make sense!

 

[yorksrob]

Article on BBC news website discussing alternatives to Dawlish.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26068375

I agree with Wolmar except that I don't see why Dawlish has to be downgraded to a single line. I agree strenuously that Okehampton needs to be reopened, but if you're maintaining a single line through Dawlish, why not keep it as a double line.

 

[Zoe]

The reason the M5 stops at Exeter is again terrain reasons - the A38 is very hilly and has numerous small entrance and exits. It is not suitable for conversion to Motorway standard and this is why the M5 had to stop at Exeter. Not because 'Exeter has demand for a dual 3 lane motorway.

Woud Plymouth really have a dual 3 lane motorway even if the terrain allowed it? The traffic counts I posted earlier show a clear drop in traffic west of Exeter so I'm not sure there would be justification for a dual 3 lane motorway to Plymouth. Hull has a similar population to Plymouth and also doesn't have a motorway (the M62 ends about 15 miles short).

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Except its not, is it? This is the bit I don't get about the constant screaming for a new line this week. The Dawlish line is almost never unavailable. Over the last 3 years there was perhaps one incident, a landslide fixed in a few days. The bigger problem over the last few years has been Cowly Bridge Junction, something thats now being totally ignored by the 'diversion now' crowd and would not factor in any diversion. I've travelled this route for many many years and only ONCE have I ever had to use an RRB to get around Dawlish. Countless times for other problems..

I don't get it. Why is anti-Dawlish so trendy all of a sudden?

An actual list of all the Dawish closures has been published by Rail Magazine

When was it closed?

Winter 1846 – 3 days

Winter 1852/53 – 2 blockages of 7 and 3 days respectively)

Feb 1855 – blockage of 12 days continuously (longest in period 1846 – 1986)

Oct 1859 – blockage for 3 days

Jan – Feb 1869 – blockage for 5 days

Winter 1872/73 – 4 blockages of 1 day, 3 days, 3 days and 1 day respectively

Nov 1908 – damage to walkway only

March 1923 – blockage of 3 days

Jan 1930 – blockage of 5 days

Feb 1936 – blockage of 3 days

March 1962 – ballast wash outs, services suspended for several hours, then Single Line Working (SLW) was instituted over the Up line

February 1974 – major damage to down platform at Dawlish station, line completely closed for 2 hours, then up line reopened

Feb/March 1986 – blocked 26/02/86 to 03/3/86 – serious damage to wall at Smugglers Cove. The Up line (eastbound) was still useable for engineers trains (and a few freight services on 1 March only). SLW commenced on 03/3/86 with the Down Main Line (Westbound) remaining shut until reopened on 11/3/86

In the last 20 years, January 1996 saw a major incident when the wall was damaged between Dawlish and Dawlish Warren at Rockstone with further severe damage at Sprey Point. Here, the down line (nearest the sea) was suspended over a washed out void, which reached to sleeper ends of Up line. Both lines closed several days were closed for about a week.

The Winter of 2000/2001 following prolonged heavy rain, saw many cliff falls and again Sprey Point featured with a big fall with the line closed for a few days and some more damage to the sea wall. Railtrack then Network Rail then carried out some major cliff stabilisation work in the mid-2000s at a cost of around £15 million.

It was suggested at the time that the repairs/maintenance of the sea wall may not have been carried out to the best design and that the foundations had not been deep enough or correctly shaped and were undermined.

The Teignmouth Sea Cliffs Warning System was installed at this time and based in Exeter Signalbox. This was activated by rock falls onto a trip wire as in the Folkestone area and in Scotland.

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2014/dawlish-rail-disruption/

 

[Zoe]

In addition to the above, I remember a blockage in October 2004 but I'm not sure if there were any further blockages after then before the landslides at the end of 2012.

 

[Goatboy]

Woud Plymouth really have a dual 3 lane motorway even if the terrain allowed it? The traffic counts I posted earlier show a clear drop in traffic west of Exeter

Perhaps, perhaps not, but if not it won't be because everyone visits Exeter. The M5 splits into three seperate dual carriageways worth of traffic *after* Exeter and its this, not that Exeter is some how the centre of the South West and the only place anyone goes, that would account for the traffic drops. The M5 does not stop at Exeter, it continues as a 3 lane Motorway several miles BEYOND Exeter until it splits into the A30, A38 and A380.

There are two seperate dual carriageways linking the M5 with Cornwall. They meet up again near Bodmin.

 

[yorksrob]

There are two seperate dual carriageways linking the M5 with Cornwall. They meet up again near Bodmin.

Just like they need two separate railways meeting up at Plymouth.

 

[Goatboy]

In addition to the above, I remember a blockage in October 2004 but I'm not sure if there were any further blockages after then before the landslides at the end of 2012.

Just doesn't seem like its blocked enough to justify the hysteria. I use this line very often and I keep thinking 'Is a new line REALLY the best thing we can find to spend several hundred million on?'.

Especially when you consider the line basically survived the onslaught with the notable exception of the ONLY single skinned section of wall, apparently built like that due to a NIMBY home owner - the rest of the wall was largely fine, because it's fit for purpose..

 

[LateThanNever]

Just doesn't seem like its blocked enough to justify the hysteria. I use this line very often and I keep thinking 'Is a new line REALLY the best thing we can find to spend several hundred million on?'.

Especially when you consider the line basically survived the onslaught with the notable exception of the ONLY single skinned section of wall, apparently built like that due to a NIMBY home owner - the rest of the wall was largely fine, because it's fit for purpose..

A very good point but it must be very doubtful that the houses were there before the railway- think that Dawlish existed as a significant town only because of the railway! But the fact is that the whole area is now problematic for Dawlish residents and rail travellers alike and it cannot be desirable that the Plymouth, Torbay and Cornwall taxpayers are cut off from most of the railway for a random month or two, because there is only one line. In my book we ought to campaign for Okehampton, Tavistock, dualling to Yeovil and robust Cowley Bridge whilst we have the opportunity... The economics of not having to give such urgent attention to a problem if there were an alternative route should help.

 

[Kettledrum]

Except its not, is it? This is the bit I don't get about the constant screaming for a new line this week. The Dawlish line is almost never unavailable. Over the last 3 years there was perhaps one incident, a landslide fixed in a few days. The bigger problem over the last few years has been Cowly Bridge Junction, something thats now being totally ignored by the 'diversion now' crowd and would not factor in any diversion. I've travelled this route for many many years and only ONCE have I ever had to use an RRB to get around Dawlish. Countless times for other problems..

I don't get it. Why is anti-Dawlish so trendy all of a sudden?

It only has to happen once to make an alternative route stack up financially. The BBC article at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26078464

says

"The line was left dangling above the sea after ballast was washed away, costing £8m a day in lost business according to local firms"

That £8M a day adds up quickly.

 

[Goatboy]

It would be if it was reality, but it's not, is it?

Exactly who is losing £8m a day?

 

[HowardGWR]

The Exe valley does need serious attention but the difference is that providing viaduct to allow flood to pass through will work permanently, whereas the coast problem is inexorable. If a Dutch solution is thought feasible, let's hear it. However they will need to come up with something similar all around the coast. Dawlish is not the only location to have lost its coastal railway in the last month or so.

 

[yorksrob]

A very good point but it must be very doubtful that the houses were there before the railway- think that Dawlish existed as a significant town only because of the railway! But the fact is that the whole area is now problematic for Dawlish residents and rail travellers alike and it cannot be desirable that the Plymouth, Torbay and Cornwall taxpayers are cut off from most of the railway for a random month or two, because there is only one line. In my book we ought to campaign for Okehampton, Tavistock, dualling to Yeovil and robust Cowley Bridge whilst we have the opportunity... The economics of not having to give such urgent attention to a problem if there were an alternative route should help.

Spot on.

 

[sor]

Just doesn't seem like its blocked enough to justify the hysteria. I use this line very often and I keep thinking 'Is a new line REALLY the best thing we can find to spend several hundred million on?'.

Especially when you consider the line basically survived the onslaught with the notable exception of the ONLY single skinned section of wall, apparently built like that due to a NIMBY home owner - the rest of the wall was largely fine, because it's fit for purpose..

Probably because in the absence of bits of it falling into the sea, the government will never think about improving the line.

This incident provides a good excuse to campaign for a better line that might pave the way for faster services, electrification, no months of bustitution when Dawlish inevitably collapses again, stuff like that. Once Dawlish is fixed the status quo will return and it'll be back to billions spent elsewhere and Plymouth/Cornwall slips further into the mire.

As for history, past performance is not a measure of future results etc.

 

[simon.exd]

It would be if it was reality, but it's not, is it?

Exactly who is losing £8m a day?

The true cost of the line being closed is not just about trains not running... Money is being lost by many many bsuinesses that are not associated with the railway, the assumption is that the only money not being spent is on train tickets and the rare bit of freight that uses the line.. .. There is also the additional costs of hiring coaches etc.. The £8 million will be made up of everything from the lost sales of newspapers by passengers right up to the thousands of pounds of china clay that wont be going anywhere by rail for a long time... Look beyond the line being closed and look at how it affects so many people and businesses..

You seem to have a big issue with Exeter getting more than Plymouth.. How could Plymouth ever hope to attract anything if the railway line is closed for any period of time? The situation at Cowley Bridge is a lot different.. The problems there can be resolved by the River Exe being dredged and all the conecting gullys and drainage channels being cleared.. I live very close the Cowley Bridge so I see on a daily basis how the river has changed.


Plymouth will always struggle to attract industry and business because of its location. Its football team will always struggle, as with the other professional teams in Devon, because they struggle to attract decent players, who prefer to be near the big city action!! It is too far out on a limb to be an effective location for many things, especially distribution. This is one of the reasons that Bridgwater and the surrounding area seems to be attracting major investment is distribution.. It is fairly central to the whole of the south west and from there West Wales and the South Coast can be covered.


Talk about reopening railway lines in the region has been going on for a lot longer than this current spell of terrible weather, quite why anyone who subscribes to a rail forum should be opposed to this is beyond me..

 

[sor]

There are two seperate dual carriageways linking the M5 with Cornwall. They meet up again near Bodmin.

They're not both dual carriageway in Cornwall, though. The A30 is indeed dual carriageway at Bodmin (although it isn't at Temple, but that's on its way to being rectified), the A38 definitely isn't apart from short sections e.g. the Dobwalls bypass.

The A30 is considered the superior road by far, but unfortunately it's still not dual carriageway from end to end, as it should be.

 

[tbtc]

You know that as soon as this line is closed for an overnight possession, there would be people trying to justify either reopening an inland route or a Oakhampton - Tavistock Shinkansen (as well as an excuse for a "Plymouth v Exeter" argument).

If we take the argument that we can't possibly have a link between two big places that doesn't have a diversionary alternative then there are plenty of other places that have no real alternative (why aren't we arguing for a diversionary route from Newport to Cardiff or a diversionary route from York to Thirsk? If either of those lines were to be put out of action for a long time then the alternative routes are so longwinded that we'd be looking at replacement buses)