Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[sor]

You can't change the location of the cities though. I'm not sure Plymouth is ever going to have anything more to offer than Exeter.

And what is making Plymouth less desirable than Exeter for businesses to locate to? Transport is a lot of the problem, I would guess.

You can't change the location, but better rail links would help. It shouldn't really take an hour to go between the two cities. I have never understood why the larger population centre always got the short straw. From Cornwall the situation is even more ludicrous, as you can shave off an hour or more by driving to Exeter instead of hopping on the train.

The idea that "there is not much demand now so we should never upgrade" makes no sense. If the original railway companies had that idea, would we have ever got the infrastructure we have?

 

[Xavi]

If re-opening the old route is such a winner, why has it not got anywhere before this incident? The way people are talking is that the BCR would be so astronomical that it is a certainty. It is still effectively building a new railway, structures, earthworks, signalling, track, stations, maintenance etc etc.... who is funding the upgrades to the road network as people drive to what this would effectively be park and rides on a secondary line. When the wall gets re-built and nothing major happens for a couple of years this is only going to quietly gather dust on a consultants shelf.

Because government only spends money where there are lots of parliamentary seats to be won.

Might be right about dust on shelf, but perhaps the significance of this incident may make a difference.

 

[Zoe]

And what is making Plymouth less desirable than Exeter for businesses to locate to? Transport is a lot of the problem, I would guess.

It needs to be clear that there is demand though before making expensive infrastructure improvments to reduce journey times to Plymouth and I'm not sure the demand is there. Plymouth did have an airport so the option for fast journey times to various destinations was available but it seems the city coud not generate enough demand for them to be vialble and so the airport closed. Exeter on the other hand is able to sustain an airport again suggesting that the demand for travel from Exeter is significantly higher.

 

[Bald Rick]

Leaving to one side the bias against railway reopenings, only someone who's been living in a cave for the past five years could have failed to notice that the Tavistock reopening is one of the most progressed and politically supported reopening schemes in the country at the moment.

... and privately funded based on a business case with significant property development.

 

[455driver]

(Or if you want a new alignment, how about a pair of TBMs straight under Dartmoor

I dont know how well (or quickly) TBMs would do bore through solid granite!

 

[LewFinnis]

To introduce a bit of levity into all this serious chat - when my daughter lived in Cornwall she always said that it would be a much better place to live if Devon wasn't in the way!

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not sure there would be demand for a direct service to Plymouth though without calling at Exeter. The demand for travel in general seems to be much lower from Plymouth. Exeter has demand for an airport and a dual 3 lane motorway. Plymouth only has demand for a 2 lane dual carriageway which never seems to get that busy and no longer has an aiport. You can have as many paths as you want but the demand needs to be there and I'm not sure it is in the case of Plymouth.

The HSTs I have ridden on for stations west of Plymouth seem to be fairly heavily loaded.

Now consider what would happen if they were only an hour and a bit out of London.
You cut a further fifty minutes off the journey time to Cornwall compared to the HSR to Exeter option.

Which might allow it to actually compete with foreign climes for tourism and maybe even long range commuting (before everyone jumps down my throat - people already have holiday homes in Cornwall, all a HSR would do is allow them to live there full time).

 

[K Macdonald]

Phil Marsh (from Railway Magazine) has just been on the BBC news and was advocating reinstatement of the Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton line, he reckons it would cost about £250 million for the section from Tavistock to Okehampton, apparently based on what the Waverley line is costing, and that does not include the cost of Bere Alston to Tavistock which he was assuming would go ahead anyway, and he also said nothing about the costs of any upgrade works that would be needed between Okehamption and Exeter.

Kilbride Holdings Ltd has been the lead group working on reopening the Bere Alston to Tavistock section. Bovis Homes has been signed up as the housing developer in Tavistock to build 750 homes. As part of the planning agreement with West Devon Borough Council and Devon County Council, the housing developer has to negociate a Section 108 Agreement, which is basically a deal between a developer and a local authority to say how much the developer will contribute to local infrastructure improvements. In this case, it's reopening the old railway.

This would allow Devon County to go through the necessary consent process for the rail, but probably not in time to stop the advance of the sea at Dawlish!

Yesterday that the Secretary of State for Transport said they will review the Bere Alston to Okehampton option in the light of what is happening on the coastal route. "will review" might mean anything in London, but maybe it indicates some more urgency about that section at least.

 

[LateThanNever]

It needs to be clear that there is demand though before making expensive infrastructure improvments to reduce journey times to Plymouth and I'm not sure the demand is there. Plymouth did have an airport so the option for fast journey times to various destinations was available but it seems the city coud not generate enough demand for them to be vialble and so the airport closed. Exeter on the other hand is able to sustain an airport again suggesting that the demand for travel from Exeter is significantly higher.

Plymouth airport closed because the runway was too short and to extend it was virtually impossible without destroying most of an industrial estate and giving Mr Wrigley a new factory - so they were only ever able to accommodate small planes which in the end were not commercially viable. Exeter airport is a bit of a joke. Nice long runway but a very, very limited destination list and it doesn't even have a standing taxi rank! and Exeter cabs cannot pick up outside because the airport is in a different licensing area!

So rail needs to hurry up and build an alternative route before the airport starts getting its act together...

 

[K Macdonald]

Just recently I found somebody had uploaded a map of the old 1930's proposals and the potential routes to "cut the corner", with a new track from south of Exeter (near Exminster), through the Haldon Hills, to rejoin the existing route near Bishopsteignton (north east of Newton Abbot).

See http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=bi89qg&s=5
Sorry, I don't know whose upload that is.

I wonder what Crossrail plans to do with its Tunnel Boring Machines when that work is complete?

 

[30907]

Are you suggesting the sea wall does not need to be maintained, and the all of the seaside part of Dawlish should be left to the mercy of the sea?

Not seriously. I was replying to the question:

If there wasn't any track in situ at all west of Exeter, what would you build?

I don't think - with 170 years' worth of hindsight and in the climatic situation predicted for the future - you would choose to build Brunel's route today (either the sea wall or the S Devon banks).
Therefore, Dawlish (and Teignmouth?) would not have a railway.

But that is pure hypothesis. The line is here - and Dawlish has taken advantage of its protection - so of course it has to be maintained (as a sea defence)

 

[HSTEd]

I dont know how well (or quickly) TBMs would do bore through solid granite!

They are doing fine in Switzerland, it is a little slow, but a dartmoor tunnel on a straight line from the direction of Bristol/Taunton to Plymouth Laira would likely only 10km or so of the actual moor.

Which is rather less than any of the great Base Tunnels.

 

[Ironside]

A slight tangent. Given that part of the railway will be out of action will there be other work carried out on the line. Seems like a good idea to me but I suppose it's very short notice unless there was a detailed plan already.

 

[30907]

Those times were with steam traction on a line being deliberately run down. With today's track standards and serving Tavistock, A30 P&R (that would be very well used), Okehampton and Crediton. I reckon it would be 1 hr - 1 hr 10, Exeter - Okehampton would be 85 - 100 mph.

Those times (on the revised Brighton-Plymouth with a Warship) were virtually identical to long-standing SR ones; the line speed was still 85mph from Cowley Bridge to Bridestowe but 40mph thereafter (plus local restrictions, of which Meldon was the worst), so not run down.

I agree that modern traction could take advantage of 85mph limits better than a West Country, but I still think your timings are optimistic: even with major straightening of Lydford-Bere Ferrers, the final section into Plymouth will remain a problem.

So I can't see the LSWR ever becoming the principal route to Plymouth, excellent though it would be for local traffic and diversions.

 

[stanley T]

Surely the most cost effective way to improve journey times beyond Exeter is diesel tilting trains; infrastructure might need a bit of tweaking, but nothing on the scale of new lines. It would also allow 125mph on the Berks & Hants, so London- Plymouth in 2h 30 mins, and to Penzance in 4hrs would be doable. Something will need to be done to replace ageing HSTs in the not too distant future anyway, and when the Brum-Southampton "electric spine" and the MML electrified class 221s should be cascaded and replaced by electric units (I know they are not everyone's favourite train, but a refurb would do wonders, not to mention fixing the smelly toilets...)

 

[yorksrob]

... and privately funded based on a business case with significant property development.

Still part of the Okehampton Route. Now climate resilience, regeneration and the overall economic wellbeing of the region can potentially be added to that business case (as a through route).

 

[joeykins82]

The MML runs class 222s: they don't tilt and the toilets don't smell, despite sharing the bodyshell with the 221 & 220.

 

[simon.exd]

They are doing fine in Switzerland, it is a little slow, but a dartmoor tunnel on a straight line from the direction of Bristol/Taunton to Plymouth Laira would likely only 10km or so of the actual moor.

Which is rather less than any of the great Base Tunnels.

I geuss the difference is, out here in the sleepy shire we will never ever see the kind if development of investment in our rail infrastructure.. sadly!

 

[HowardGWR]

Just recently I found somebody had uploaded a map of the old 1930's proposals and the potential routes to "cut the corner", with a new track from south of Exeter (near Exminster), through the Haldon Hills, to rejoin the existing route near Bishopsteignton (north east of Newton Abbot).

See http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=bi89qg&s=5
Sorry, I don't know whose upload that is.

I wonder what Crossrail plans to do with its Tunnel Boring Machines when that work is complete?

Thanks, that map shews that it must have been all tunnel, because that is one huge 'mountain' it crosses, just like Dartmoor. Incidentally a lot of Dawlish and Teignmouth hinterland is now built over.

 

[po8crg]

Something will need to be done to replace ageing HSTs in the not too distant future anyway

Um, isn't that the class 800s?

 

[Zoe]

Um, isn't that the class 800s?

The current IEP order will not replace HSTs on the Plymouth/Penzance route. It was an option on the contract but when this was discussed recently it was stated that this has now been voided.

 

[30907]

It shouldn't really take an hour to go between the two cities. I have never understood why the larger population centre always got the short straw.
The idea that "there is not much demand now so we should never upgrade" makes no sense. If the original railway companies had that idea, would we have ever got the infrastructure we have?

Unfortunately, Plymouth gets the short straw because of physical geography (exacerbated by Brunel's too-clever engineering), and even if the GW's 30's plans had come to fruition, it would only have cut 5 minutes or so off journey time.

 

[sor]

It needs to be clear that there is demand though before making expensive infrastructure improvments to reduce journey times to Plymouth and I'm not sure the demand is there. Plymouth did have an airport so the option for fast journey times to various destinations was available but it seems the city coud not generate enough demand for them to be vialble and so the airport closed. Exeter on the other hand is able to sustain an airport again suggesting that the demand for travel from Exeter is significantly higher.

I am not sure that the airport demand can be used as an indicator for rail. There are many reasons why people would not use the plane - for example cost, onward travel after landing, security, fear of flying, destinations, frequency. Despite living near Newquay Airport I don't make use of it, because of those reasons. It's reasonable to assume that Plymouth had many of the same problems. Plus it's too close to Exeter and its airport.

I use the slower railway as it stands and I'd love to use it if it were faster, although driving to Exeter (1 hour roughly compared to 2 hours by train) is quite enticing, especially with the current situation.

But it seems like a circular argument - Plymouth has lower demand because it's the less desirable city. It is the less desirable city in part because it is harder to get to/from it from places like London. Therefore as it has low demand, we shouldn't upgrade the transport links. Plymouth has lower demand....

 

[Lankyline]

Found this on BBC news site re discussion on alternative routes to Dawlish http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26068375 seems that it takes a major problem like this to start the debate

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

They are doing fine in Switzerland, it is a little slow, but a dartmoor tunnel on a straight line from the direction of Bristol/Taunton to Plymouth Laira would likely only 10km or so of the actual moor.

Which is rather less than any of the great Base Tunnels.

Any direct line between Exeter and Plymouth would most sensibly follow the route of the A38 road skirting Dartmoor rather than burrowing under it! Torbay could be served by using the Heathfield branch to Newton Abbot. Nevertheless it would require some hefty engineering features including a 2 mile tunnel under Haldon Hill (which is greensand rather than granite) and a high-level bridge over the River Dart at Buckfastleigh. This is fantasy stuff and won't happen any time soon - re-opening the LSW line via Okehampton is a much more realistic and achievable option,and at least provides an emergency diversion. The Teign Valley line is a complete non-starter, being lightly constructed and steeply graded whilst the formation is obliterated by the A38 at Chudleigh Knighton and the A30 at Alphington.

 

[Zoe]

I am not sure that the airport demand can be used as an indicator for rail.

It's not just air though, the traffic statisics for the A38 show a significant drop in traffic after Exeter even though there is no change in the speed limit. Even if you improved rail journey times to Plymouth, Exeter is always going to be the first city people arrive at and Pymouth doesn't have anything more to offer.

 

[HSTEd]

Any direct line between Exeter and Plymouth would most sensibly follow the route of the A38 road skirting Dartmoor rather than burrowing under it! Torbay could be served by using the Heathfield branch to Newton Abbot. Nevertheless it would require some hefty engineering features including a 2 mile tunnel under Haldon Hill (which is greensand rather than granite) and a high-level bridge over the River Dart at Buckfastleigh. This is fantasy stuff and won't happen any time soon - re-opening the LSW line via Okehampton is a much more realistic and achievable option,and at least provides an emergency diversion. The Teign Valley line is a complete non-starter, being lightly constructed and steeply graded whilst the formation is obliterated by the A38 at Chudleigh Knighton and the A30 at Alphington.

It has been demonstrated that tunnelling is often the cheaper and easier option than a longer diversion.
The lowest capital cost option for HS2 would involve almost no tunnels outside the M25 at all.
But this was deemed to be a non starter.

Whilst tunnelling appears to be expensive it is nowhere near as expensive as it once was compared to surface operations (tunnelling is now only a small integer times as expensive as surface running compared to orders of magnitude as was in earlier eras).
There are no NIMBYs complaining about their view when the line is a hundred metres or more below Dartmoor.

It's not just air though, the traffic statisics for the A38 show a significant drop in traffic after Exeter even though there is no change in the speed limit. Even if you improved rail journey times to Plymouth, Exeter is always going to be the first city people arrive at and Pymouth doesn't have anything more to offer.

Plymouth has land.

Land is the most important thing of all.
Housing in Plymouth would likely be cheaper than in Exeter for this very reason.

If a high speed route allows my proposed non stop running Plymouth station would be something like 55-60km further from London.
This sounds like a lot but it translates to twelve minutes.

 

[Llanigraham]

It also needs to be remember that if Scotland got it's wishes, and subsequently removed the Royal Navy bases, then Plymouth could take on a strategic Naval importance again.

 

[sor]

It's not just air though, the traffic statisics for the A38 show a significant drop in traffic after Exeter even though there is no change in the speed limit. Even if you improved rail journey times to Plymouth, Exeter is always going to be the first city people arrive at and Pymouth doesn't have anything more to offer.

I'm not sure "it's the first city" makes any sense either. On a trip from London you're going to be passing through places like Reading or Bristol, which are probably more desirable again than Exeter.

Plymouth has some advantages - proximity to Cornwall for beach trips/tourism, larger potential workforce, more land, and is arguably leagues ahead in areas like marine science/engineering.

I still don't think you're getting my point. I agree that Exeter is in higher demand, but my point is that it is in higher demand because it is easier to get to. If it was made easier to get to Plymouth/Cornwall, it's very possible that the demand would increase/shift to it. I just don't agree with the argument that no improvement should be made towards Plymouth because there is currently not as much demand - the potential future should be the basis of investment.

Apart from the transport links I honestly don't see what's intrinsically special about Exeter compared to Plymouth.

 

[HowardGWR]

Plymouth has land.

Land is the most important thing of all.
Housing in Plymouth would likely be cheaper than in Exeter for this very reason.

If a high speed route allows my proposed non stop running Plymouth station would be something like 55-60km further from London.
This sounds like a lot but it translates to twelve minutes.

Plymouth does not have land, at least not after its already planned eastern extension is completed, unless the scenery of West and South Devon is to be totally trashed. Exeter has land and if Cranbrook new town area were expanded, it could make Exeter the goal for your HS line. There is no earthly economic reason to urbanise further west than Exeter and there never was IMO.