Suggestions for changing the calling points on the Caledonian SLeeper

[Ianno87]

Platform 2/3 at Coventry is ~340m long - but after the last round of refurbishment the usable length is less than 300m. Don't remember there being a 15/16 car stop sign last time I used Coventry (pre-covid of course) think the max is 12 along with other stations on the route.

I'd love there to be a sleeper at Coventry (or even BHM) as it would help with my regular commutes to Scotland but I think paths may be an issue especially if early morning.

If I remember correctly, the sign is past the usable section of the platform. And agreed on a sleeper stop in the West mids. Each time I've used the sleeper I've had to go to Euston first.

Yes it (14/15 car stop) is (in the Down direction) beyond the platform starter signal. Presumably had some custom dispatch arrangements associated with it.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Just had a quick look, and there is time to get the southbound Highland through Stechford off the Aston line and put in a call at International before a non-stop sprint to Euston behind 1R04 all the way.

Northbound, assuming it follows 1Y55 or whatever it is without stopping at Watford, you could get it to pass Ledburn 7 minutes before it currently does and do about a 21:55-21:57 Milton Keynes stop instead. Southbound people would be able to connect straight off 1M16 at International with a Milton Keynes, or onto a Pendolino that does a Watford call. One LM service following would just need to be moved from Platform 4 to Platform 5, which can be done easily in the existing WTT.

How you would manage the other aspects, it would obviously need a much shorter Preston dwell southbound (do people still use it? Or is it not booked in the passenger timetable), and get out of Crewe quicker. That said, at those times it wouldn't need a southbound 'diversionary route' e.g. Rugeley or New Street; just Bushbury - Bescot - Aston - Stechford.

Northbound can't see any major issues again; it follows a relatively quick London Midland to Stechford and probably gets across there (if you're lucky with 2O00 at Coventry) at 22:53 all being well. It should still make its existing path at Crewe, therefore.

 

[Ianno87]

Just had a quick look, and there is time to get the southbound Highland through Stechford off the Aston line and put in a call at International before a non-stop sprint to Euston behind 1R04 all the way.

Northbound, assuming it follows 1Y55 or whatever it is without stopping at Watford, you could get it to pass Ledburn 7 minutes before it currently does and do about a 21:55-21:57 Milton Keynes stop instead. Southbound people would be able to connect straight off 1M16 at International with a Milton Keynes, or onto a Pendolino that does a Watford call. One LM service following would just need to be moved from Platform 4 to Platform 5, which can be done easily in the existing WTT.

How you would manage the other aspects, it would obviously need a much shorter Preston dwell southbound (do people still use it? Or is it not booked in the passenger timetable), and get out of Crewe quicker. That said, at those times it wouldn't need a southbound 'diversionary route' e.g. Rugeley or New Street; just Bushbury - Bescot - Aston - Stechford.

Northbound can't see any major issues again; it follows a relatively quick London Midland to Stechford and probably gets across there (if you're lucky with 2O00 at Coventry) at 22:53 all being well. It should still make its existing path at Crewe, therefore.

Would it be too long for International? I.e. you'd want to be able to pull it in to be overtaken if needs be?

 

[The Planner]

Just had a quick look, and there is time to get the southbound Highland through Stechford off the Aston line and put in a call at International before a non-stop sprint to Euston behind 1R04 all the way.

How? If you are following 1R04 from Stechford you cannot come out at Stechford until 0614 and you would be from a stand so into International no earlier than 0620 with 1Y10 behind you at 0624. You would need a 1 minute dwell which is unfeasible for a train like that and International only has 303m platforms.

 

[markymark2000]

Just a thought which could help the

As others have said, the usage of the Fort William portion varies significantly. Baring in mind that it also serves as the only regular direct service between Edinburgh Waverley and Fort William, the last thing you want to do is to remove this - as during the quiet periods in the berths, there is still a fair usage of the seated coach between the two. Thus splitting at Carstairs as part of the Glasgow sleeper removes this somewhat important connection, and would essentially kill the seated coach for this service regardless if you were to continue it to London or not.

It would be interesting to see the figures showing how Fort William to England seated demand compares to that of the seated demand for Scottish based journeys.

I'm interested that there is seated usage between Fort William and Edinburgh given CS do not sell seats for these journeys. You can only purchase tickets from Scottish stations to stations in England (and vice versa). No option for tickets between Fort William and Edinburgh.


A question before I put forward my suggestions. If the CS is full on both trips, does that mean it breaks even or is the taxpayer still subsidising it when full?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't remember if it changes crews at, uh...., Crewe. You definitely do *not* want to do that in 13/14 at Piccadilly at any time of day!

Fair point, though what exactly is it going to get in the way of on Castlefield at midnight? The last westbound passenger service is the 23something Liverpool, isn't it?

Even if there was something, 13 and 14 are bidirectional and it's not like there are frequent services at that time of night.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm interested that there is seated usage between Fort William and Edinburgh given CS do not sell seats for these journeys. You can only purchase tickets from Scottish stations to stations in England (and vice versa). No option for tickets between Fort William and Edinburgh.

You don't buy them from CS, you ignore the "compulsory reservations" claim and just buy a walk-up for the journey without a reservation. It is a condition of their franchise agreement that the seated coach is available for domestic passengers in both directions between Edinburgh and FW.

 

[JonathanH]

You don't buy them from CS, you ignore the "compulsory reservations" claim and just buy a walk-up for the journey without a reservation. It is a condition of their franchise agreement that the seated coach is available for domestic passengers in both directions between Edinburgh and FW.

You can also buy tickets for travel from Edinburgh (and Glasgow) to Fort William online for the seated coaches using the Scotrail website.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In essence the rule is "compulsory reservations for journeys south of Edinburgh", which DB HAFAS is capable of representing, but the UK planners aren't for some reason, probably because (COVID and 24th Dec aside) the only compulsory reservation domestic trains in the UK are CS, there are no others (not even the Riviera, which has 2 seated coaches for what is usually about 2 passengers), so it wouldn't really be worth the faff to implement it.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

As a football fan, I would love the Caledonian sleeper to carry non-sleeping coaches and set down at Crewe. There is nothing more annoying than having to stay in London overnight after England games at Wembley.

Theatre and opera goers probably feel the same way.

 

[Ianno87]

As a football fan, I would love the Caledonian sleeper to carry non-sleeping coaches and set down at Crewe. There is nothing more annoying than having to stay in London overnight after England games at Wembley.

Theatre and opera goers probably feel the same way.

The 2300 to Manchester (via Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport) fulfills that role.

 

[SuspectUsual]

About 15 months ago I got chatting to a couple of people in the (very excellent) Grasshopper hotel adjacent to Glasgow Central, and it turned out they were consultants working with CS. I can recall them saying they’d recommended one train (I can’t remember which) being routed via Manchester as their market research indicated there was an untapped market and people perceived going to Preston to get the sleeper as too much faff.

 

[The Planner]

About 15 months ago I got chatting to a couple of people in the (very excellent) Grasshopper hotel adjacent to Glasgow Central, and it turned out they were consultants working with CS. I can recall them saying they’d recommended one train (I can’t remember which) being routed via Manchester as their market research indicated there was an untapped market and people perceived going to Preston to get the sleeper as too much faff.

Presumably the Highlander, but for what market? its only north of Perth that is a reasonable time drop off and that's debatable at 0541 considering you would be gone midnight at Picc.

 

[Ianno87]

Presumably the Highlander, but for what market? its only north of Perth that is a reasonable time drop off and that's debatable at 0541 considering you would be gone midnight at Picc.

I'd be intrigued to see loading stats on the Highlander to see how loaded it is for how far, i.e. is it dominated by flows going all the way to/from FW/Inverness/Aberdeen or is it more spread across all the calling points? Is it different in each direction?

I could imagine the northbound being more people going the whole way (due to needing to rise early), but the southbound maybe picking up more along the way for a nights sleep on the way to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The northbound Highlander would be great for a weekend in, er, the Highlands, from Manchester, doing day trains home on the Sunday.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The 2300 to Manchester (via Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport) fulfills that role.

2300 is a tad early for 8 pm kick offs given the long queues at Wembley Central, Wembley Park and Wembley Stadium stations after matches. The games don't finish till about 2200 and it takes a long time to get out of the ground.

Indeed it is difficult to guarantee getting to Euston by 2300 from any football ground in London after a night match. I wouldn't even risk the train after 5.30 pm kick offs on Saturdays with the last train to Crewe leaving at 2101.

The chances of catching the 2350 to Glasgow after a midweek international at Wembley are better, but not 100%.

When I lived in Manchester in the late 1960's, there used to be an overnight bus to Manchester which left Victoria coach station after midnight. I couldn't afford the train fare. I managed to catch the bus after 7.30 pm kick offs at fourth division grounds like Brentford, Aldershot and Southend. The coach now leaves at 2330 and matches start later at 7.45 or 8.00 pm, so it would be difficult these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The answer to that, of course, is the football clubs putting matches on, possibly forced by legislation[1], at a more sensible time.

[1] Not so much that I'd make a law about the time of a match, but a "travel plan" could perhaps be required, including requiring the choice of timing to support a minimum percentage of fans arriving in the host city solely by public transport without an overnight stay, applying to both home and away fans.

 

[Ianno87]

2300 is a tad early for 8 pm kick offs given the long queues at Wembley Central, Wembley Park and Wembley Stadium stations after matches. The games don't finish till about 2200 and it takes a long time to get out of the ground.

Indeed it is difficult to guarantee getting to Euston by 2300 from any football ground in London after a night match. I wouldn't even risk the train after 5.30 pm kick offs on Saturdays with the last train to Crewe leaving at 2101.

The chances of catching the 2350 to Glasgow after a midweek international at Wembley are better, but not 100%.

When I lived in Manchester in the late 1960's, there used to be an overnight bus to Manchester which left Victoria coach station after midnight. I couldn't afford the train fare. I managed to catch the bus after 7.30 pm kick offs at fourth division grounds like Brentford, Aldershot and Southend. The coach now leaves at 2330 and matches start later at 7.45 or 8.00 pm, so it would be difficult these days.

I'm not sure the sleeper passengers (who pay a reasonably premium for a half-decent nights sleep) will particularly appreciate football fans turning up en-masse, chanting, drinking... A sure-fire way to kill the sleeper off entirely.