Suggestions for changing the calling points on the Caledonian SLeeper

[Ianno87]

More stops damages the product for most passengers doesn’t it?
The sleep period is pretty short with out the disturbance of stop and start, and people getting up and opening doors etc,

I found the soundproofing/ride on the Mk5s to be ample for this not to be a problem. Then again, I downed a couple of cans to aid sleep....

Maybe. I assume the Watford stop is there for some theoretical legacy view that people would get a taxi transfer from Heathrow to catch the sleeper (although in this day and age it would make more sense to fly to Scotland in the first place). I have no idea what the size of the potential market for people joining at Milton Keynes would be.

I don't know, but I suspect bigger than Watford. It's stopped at the latter for so long people have probably forgotten why. It probably just stems back to the days when most ICWC trains did stop there.

Watford was always traditionally a railhead for the home counties via the M25. However, that harks back to the days of normal passengers picking up paper timetables and spotting the Watford stop, which (despite enthusiast protestations) is not how most folk plan their journey any more. Plus M25 congestion being a deterrent.

MK is probably a much bigger railhead these days for the Oxford-Cambridge arc. (Aylesbury, Bedford, etc). To the point where, on paper*, the Watford stop could be sacrificed for MK (given that Watford passengers retain an easy change of train)

*Noting that this may screw up pathing.

 

[alistairlees]

Is there really any point of putting a stop in the lowland sleeper at Birmingham International? We would be talking about roughly 0500 southbound (see Monday running times) for a train that leaves Edinburgh and Glasgow at 2340 and about 0115 northbound (see Sunday times) for a 0720 arrival. That is seriously unattractive - at best four and half hours sleep or maybe five northbound.

Sunday northbound https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75067/2020-09-27/detailed
Sunday southbound https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75050/2020-09-27/detailed

As for a coach from Tamworth. That is just a way of wasting money.

It was considered for the Highlander for which it would (potentially) make sense. Something like a 23.00 departure. Keep Crewe. Drop Preston. On the southound it would be around 06.00. That would push Crewe to be much earlier - say 05.00 instead of 05.37. And drop the Preston stop again.

 

[MrEd]

It was considered for the Highlander for which it would (potentially) make sense. Something like a 23.00 departure. Keep Crewe. Drop Preston. On the southound it would be around 06.00. That would push Crewe to be much earlier - say 05.00 instead of 05.37. And drop the Preston stop again.

But isn’t the Preston stop needed for the crew change on the Highlander? As the train has to stop there anyway, surely it’s worth retaining it as a public call, as it must generate at least the occasional source of revenue (I have definitely seen passengers boarding the northbound Inverness and Fort William sleepers at Preston, both in the seats and in the berths).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Is there really any point of putting a stop in the lowland sleeper at Birmingham International? We would be talking about roughly 0500 southbound (see Monday running times) for a train that leaves Edinburgh and Glasgow at 2340 and about 0115 northbound (see Sunday times) for a 0720 arrival. That is seriously unattractive - at best four and half hours sleep or maybe five northbound.

Sunday northbound https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75067/2020-09-27/detailed
Sunday southbound https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75050/2020-09-27/detailed

As for a coach from Tamworth. That is just a way of wasting money.

my fault. Did mean the Highland!

 

[Chester1]

With the Highlander (which is the one more suited to this) not really, it departs too early for most people to be sleeping, and it passes MKC well after they've gone round banging on doors with the poor excuse for breakfast. Indeed, I was getting hassled for my coffee cup back well before MKC (which I thought was very poor).

Regarding HS2, if it gets built all the way I can see it dispensing with the need for the Lowlander, but not so much the Highlander.

HS2 opening to Crewe will damage the economics of the lowland sleeper and if it opens to Golborne it will surely kill it off with 3 hour 40 minute journeys. 2028-35 will coincide with the Night Rivera stock needing to be scrapped and would be a good time to scale back the Caledonian sleepers and transfer some stock.

Before 2028 the only significant change that might work would be extending the Aberdeen sleeper to Inverness (as a second service), this would mean the towns between the two could be served and would mean one fewer depot required.

 

[JonathanH]

HS2 opening to Crewe will damage the economics of the lowland sleeper and if it opens to Golborne it will surely kill it off with 3 hour 40 minute journeys. 2028-35 will coincide with the Night Rivera stock needing to be scrapped and would be a good time to scale back the Caledonian sleepers and transfer some stock.

Before 2028 the only significant change that might work would be extending the Aberdeen sleeper to Inverness (as a second service), this would mean the towns between the two could be served and would mean one fewer depot required.

Who is going to turn up at Euston at 0400 to get to Scotland for 0740?

Not sure that sending the Aberdeen to Inverness via Elgin is a particularly good use of a path that is better used for a day train. There is a day train from Aberdeen to Inverurie at 0749 and Inverness at 0822 and probably not a path available for the sleeper to go along a line which is single for quite a long part.

It was considered for the Highlander for which it would (potentially) make sense. Something like a 23.00 departure. Keep Crewe. Drop Preston. On the southound it would be around 06.00. That would push Crewe to be much earlier - say 05.00 instead of 05.37. And drop the Preston stop again.

It would still need to leave Euston at 2115 and arrive at 0749 because that is where it fits. The southbound path needed at Aston / Stetchford is currently occupied by this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25865/2020-09-02/detailed. Clearly that could be moved. It would need quite a bit of work to path and would need to recognise that the paths north of Edinburgh are pretty much fixed.

 

[alistairlees]

It would still need to leave Euston at 2115 and arrive at 0749 because that is where it fits. The southbound path needed at Aston / Stetchford is currently occupied by this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25865/2020-09-02/detailed. Clearly that could be moved. It would need quite a bit of work to path and would need to recognise that the paths north of Edinburgh are pretty much fixed.

Yes, that’s correct. And that’s what I’m suggesting, if Birmingham International is ever to be considered. My times were approximate to indicate what sort of product could be aspired to, and to consider whether it would work for actual customers, given the constraints of the current paths. Roughly speaking those times would work, from a customer point of view.

 

[Meerkat]

Who is going to turn up at Euston at 0400 to get to Scotland for 0740?

Who needs to be in Scotland at 0740?
6am for 0940 would be good enough. Folk get up pretty early to get the plane to Scotland.

 

[JonathanH]

Who needs to be in Scotland at 0740?
6am for 0940 would be good enough. Folk get up pretty early to get the plane to Scotland.

That depends on where you have got to get to.

Even getting to Euston for 0600 (or 0531 for the current first train) isn't practical for everyone who might want to get to Scotland in time for a full day. The purpose of the sleeper is to avoid an overnight hotel stay.

 

[Meerkat]

That depends on where you have got to get to.

Even getting to Euston for 0600 (or 0531 for the current first train) isn't practical for everyone who might want to get to Scotland in time for a full day. The purpose of the sleeper is to avoid an overnight hotel stay.

Use of the sleeper is marginal. Anyone who really refuses to fly or stay over will be able to adapt.

 

[cle]

For a service like this, Watford definitely has a larger catchment. Outer north London (borough of Harrow), Three Rivers and St Albans, for one - bring it well above the MK Metro catchment within similar size. The Oxford/Cambridge arc doesn't exist yet either!

But as said, there is not reason why it can't stop at both. Not everything has to be 'either/or' - there is time, and demand for both.

 

[Statto]

It feels like change for the sake of it rather than anything else, one issue with the Fort William section, CS have a day coaches & passengers from Edinburgh to Fort William & vice versa, so what happens to that, then it's timings, the south WCML is quite busy even in the evenings, the pathings at the moment are perfect, & any later arrival in the mornings is going to impact on commuter services, as you already see when the CS is delayed

 

[Ianno87]

For a service like this, Watford definitely has a larger catchment. Outer north London (borough of Harrow), Three Rivers and St Albans, for one - bring it well above the MK Metro catchment within similar size. The Oxford/Cambridge arc doesn't exist yet either!

.

The existing road commuting flows currently prevalent suggest it very much does...

What you mean is that it doesn't (yet) have a rail connection, which is a very different thing.

 

[Tobbes]

The existing road commuting flows currently prevalent suggest it very much does...

What you mean is that it doesn't (yet) have a rail connection, which is a very different thing.

EWR would make a Bletchley/MKC call is theoretically attractive, but in reality what's the usage case?

Northbound Oxford Highlander passengers would benefit, but how many of them are there? I can't see that the Lowlander northbound would be that attractive from MKC for the reason set out above. Northbound, Cambridge or Bedford passengers would probably be better off timewise to go KX/StP and then up the Euston Road, but it could be easier to change once at Bletchley. So Northbound this suggests some Oxford Highlander passengers and Highlander passengers from stations between Bletchley and Bedford would directly benefit.

However, I see a radically better use case Southbound, with a Bletchley stop for both trains meaning that all destinations get a one change service to Oxford and Cambs for a full day's meetings.

What I can't see is both Bletchley and MKC stops having much point.

 

[Bald Rick]

Who needs to be in Scotland at 0740?
6am for 0940 would be good enough. Folk get up pretty early to get the plane to Scotland.

Plenty of people are on the 0428 from Glasgow in the morning, to go to London. Similarly plenty on the first down train from Euston.

 

[Tobbes]

Plenty of people are on the 0428 from Glasgow in the morning, to go to London. Similarly plenty on the first down train from Euston.

Of course, if we sort out the politics and build HS2 all the way to Edinburgh and Glasgow....

A full HSR is the only thing that I see removing the need for the Lowlander if the journey times were around 2h30m - between a 2300 arr 0130 and a 0500 arr 0730 there's not obviously a market for a Lowland sleeper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who is going to turn up at Euston at 0400 to get to Scotland for 0740?

You'd be surprised. Many business travellers take "unsocial hours" type flights which would result in a similar arrival time for all the faff you do in airports. For work purposes I'd choose to do that over the Sleeper because at least I would have (if I lived in London and took a taxi to Euston) 3-4 hours sleep vs. none at all.

 

[Chester1]

Who is going to turn up at Euston at 0400 to get to Scotland for 0740?

Not sure that sending the Aberdeen to Inverness via Elgin is a particularly good use of a path that is better used for a day train. There is a day train from Aberdeen to Inverurie at 0749 and Inverness at 0822 and probably not a path available for the sleeper to go along a line which is single for quite a long part.

Of course, if we sort out the politics and build HS2 all the way to Edinburgh and Glasgow....

A full HSR is the only thing that I see removing the need for the Lowlander if the journey times were around 2h30m - between a 2300 arr 0130 and a 0500 arr 0730 there's not obviously a market for a Lowland sleeper.

Theres a difference between HS2 making it not useful and killing off the financial case for the current configuration. Its already heavily subsidised and there will be a tipping point when too many passengers switch to day time trains to justify current capacity.

 

[Ianno87]

Bumping an old thread....

Was musing about this earlier, and wondering about a stop in the Highland Sleeper at Manchester Piccadilly....

Multiple electrified routes south of Manchester for overnight diversions, plus (now) two electrified routes north of Ordsall Lane (Chat Moss and Bolton)

Would be a midnight-ish stop going north, an 05-something stop going south, so not too unsociable. Could even be certain days of week / year only.

Down side is length of 13/14 at Piccadilly (c 270 metres), so SDO would be needed

 

[Tobbes]

Bumping an old thread....

Was musing about this earlier, and wondering about a stop in the Highland Sleeper at Manchester Piccadilly....

Multiple electrified routes south of Manchester for overnight diversions, plus (now) two electrified routes north of Ordsall Lane (Chat Moss and Bolton)

Would be a midnight-ish stop going north, an 05-something stop going south, so not too unsociable. Could even be certain days of week / year only.

Down side is length of 13/14 at Piccadilly (c 270 metres), so SDO would be needed

Good call - I wonder why it isn't already in the timetable?

 

[Ianno87]

Good call - I wonder why it isn't already in the timetable?

Because it's never been practical until recently, without any electrified routes Manchester-Preston at all.

 

[Tobbes]

Because it's never been practical until recently, without any electrified routes Manchester-Preston at all.

Ah, forgive my ignorance of electrification around Manchester!

 

[Glenn1969]

And maybe because there wouldn't be a regular path for it at Piccadilly?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could potentially drop the Crewe stop in favour of Manchester Piccadilly, as pretty much everyone who can get to Crewe can get to Piccadilly, and the waiting facilities are massively superior, and it'd allow running via Stoke if this was necessary.

 

[adamedwards]

A Highlander stop at Rugby going north would allow connections from Birmingham, Coventry, Northampton and Milton Keynes. Coming south might a Rugby stop work if it also was designed to help regulate the train into the path to London? It would be pick up only northbound and set down only southbound.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And maybe because there wouldn't be a regular path for it at Piccadilly?

I don't think there's a shortage of paths even through Castlefield at midnight.

Southbound would be less important, as the unsocial time of arrival (4am) and shorter journey than London would I suspect mean people would use day trains to return. But again I doubt there's any shortage of paths through Castlefield at 4am either!

I suspect it'd be perfect for the "use case" of Friday evening out, a full day of mountaineering on the Saturday, an early start and a half day's hillwalking Sunday and a lunchtime train back, home for Sunday evening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Highlander stop at Rugby going north would allow connections from Birmingham, Coventry, Northampton and Milton Keynes. Coming south might a Rugby stop work if it also was designed to help regulate the train into the path to London? It would be pick up only northbound and set down only southbound.

I'd give serious consideration to running via and stopping at New St, even if it meant a slightly earlier departure from Euston. If it had to be diverted a bus could be put on to somewhere on the Trent Valley and stop it there. That would be a reasonable connection to/from MKC; Watford passengers would just go to Euston. That said, if SDO (or just local door on a couple of coaches) made it feasible I'd stick an MKC stop in northbound too (I'm figuring it would be hard to path a southbound MKC stop due to it being on the fasts in the morning peak). It's not like it's in a hurry.

 

[Ianno87]

You could potentially drop the Crewe stop in favour of Manchester Piccadilly, as pretty much everyone who can get to Crewe can get to Piccadilly, and the waiting facilities are massively superior, and it'd allow running via Stoke if this was necessary.

Can't remember if it changes crews at, uh...., Crewe. You definitely do *not* want to do that in 13/14 at Piccadilly at any time of day!

 

[james_the_xv]

Did the sleeper ever stop at Coventry? I noticed last time I was there that the station is quite a bit longer than a Pendolino and even has a 15/16 car stop sign.

Platform 2/3 at Coventry is ~340m long - but after the last round of refurbishment the usable length is less than 300m. Don't remember there being a 15/16 car stop sign last time I used Coventry (pre-covid of course) think the max is 12 along with other stations on the route.

I'd love there to be a sleeper at Coventry (or even BHM) as it would help with my regular commutes to Scotland but I think paths may be an issue especially if early morning.

 

[43 302]

Platform 2/3 at Coventry is ~340m long - but after the last round of refurbishment the usable length is less than 300m. Don't remember there being a 15/16 car stop sign last time I used Coventry (pre-covid of course) think the max is 12 along with other stations on the route.

I'd love there to be a sleeper at Coventry (or even BHM) as it would help with my regular commutes to Scotland but I think paths may be an issue especially if early morning.

If I remember correctly, the sign is past the usable section of the platform. And agreed on a sleeper stop in the West mids. Each time I've used the sleeper I've had to go to Euston first.