Stuttgart 21 project

[brianthegiant]

the strategic paris vienna line seems to in a bit of trouble..
The rebuilding of stuttgart Hbf has become seriously unpopular, lots of protests due to tree-felling & knocking down parts of 'iconic station' (despite nazi era architecture)
Somehow DB, the german Govt & the regional parliament have failed to sell the project locally. -people see it as a mayor's vanity project, they dont like the local financial contribution (3 way funding from DB, federal govt & regional govt) and people believe that because there will be less platforms so there will be less capacity. In reality, the temrinal platforms are being replaced by through platforms, so I suspect the capacity issue is resolved by shorter dwell times & less use for stabling of local trains
lots of media coverage of heavy handed police approach - pepper spray water cannons etc.
talk of putting the project on hold, though site prep is very much underway so I think that may be a bit late now
probably quite a lot we can learn about how NOT to do a HS rail project...

 

[gordonthemoron]

the whole fiasco is ridiculous. Stuttgart Hbf is a nice building and shouldn't be demolished. Also the demonstrators & police have seriously overreacted

 

[Csalem]

I was intrigued to read in TR that 30,000 people went out to protest over the demolition of the station. Ireland is practically bankrupt and we can hardly manage to get 1,000-2,000 out on the streets to protest against the government.

 

[brianthegiant]

I was intrigued to read in TR that 30,000 people went out to protest over the demolition of the station. Ireland is practically bankrupt and we can hardly manage to get 1,000-2,000 out on the streets to protest against the government.

allowing a margin of error depending who figures that is...how you count no.s of protestors is always contentious, in britain the police always seems to quote a figure about half that of the protest organisers...

 

[Feuerbach]

I used to live in Stuttgart and have been following the Stuttgart 21 saga closely. I appreciate that, in the investment-starved UK rail sector, the idea of spending billions on a new station sounds attractive. The problem is that Stuttgart 21 will provide Stuttgart with a rail service which is inferior to the current one, will cost at least 10 billion euros and take 10-15 years to build. The existing station and track system do need improving, but this could be done at a fraction of the cost of Stuttgart 21.

The massive "Stuttgart 21" project is intended to turn the city's railway terminus into an underground through station which will connect with a planned high-speed line to Ulm/Munich. Originally conceived over 20 years ago, the station project is rejected by about three quarters of the population of Stuttgart.

Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof is quite a monumental building but pre-dates the Nazi-era by about 5 years (it was built between 1914 and 1927). It is a listed building, but this has not stopped the state of Baden-Württemberg and Deutsche Bahn from demolishing the North Wing (the South Wing will go too) to make way for the new subterranean station.

Photos 5 and 6 here
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/1104686/display/21645370
show the three-level complex of underpasses and overpasses which allows trains to cross each others' paths without holding each other up. This is regarded as a rather fine piece of railway engineering (which contributes to making the current terminus station the most efficient in Germany) but this, too will eventually be demolished.

About 300 trees, some of them over 200 years old, will also have to be felled to make way for the new station. The first 25 trees were felled illegally in the early hours of 1 October 2010, the day after police in full riot gear used water cannon, pepper spray and tear gas to remove peaceful protesters from the park adjacent to the station. Several protesters were seriously injured, one of them blinded by a direct hit from a water cannon (warning, photo 3 here is rather nasty: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-59995.html). I don't think the UK media understood/were interested in the massive scandal which this police action caused in Germany. The people attacked were not throwing petrol bombs or burning cars. They were staging a sit-in to prevent some trees from being felled.

The extensive tunnelling work involved in Stuttgart 21 is a threat to the city's mineral water springs while the geology of the region makes tunnel construction extremely difficult and costly.

The protest against Stuttgart 21 is about much more than a station building and a park. Over the years there have been repeated calls for a referendum on the project, but these have always been rejected. 67,000 people in the city signed a petition calling for a referendum, but responsibility for the project was quickly shifted to regional level so that the mayor of Stuttgart could argue that a referendum was no longer admissible. Local, regional and national politicians never tire of pointing out that Stuttgart 21 has been approved by democratically elected bodies. Unfortunately, those democratically elected bodies made their decisions on the basis of what has now been found to be erroneous information. Costs were played down (the official cost of the project (underground station+HSL to Ulm) is now about 7 billion euros, but the real cost is likely to be greater than 10 billion euros) while the benefits of the new station and rail infrastructure were played up.

In July 2010, faced with almost daily revelations about suppressed reports and hidden subsidies, the project's backers hurriedly decided to bring forward the demolition of the North Wing of the station in an attempt to create the impression that the project was now irreversible and in so doing to undermine the protest movement. In fact, this has only succeeded in mobilising even greater opposition with many tens of thousands of people demonstrating against Stuttgart 21 every week.

Why are local and regional politicians so keen to go ahead with Stuttgart 21? The area currently occupied by the tracks on the approach to the terminus station will be freed up to become valuable building land if the station is moved underground. This is the real driving force of the project.

Article about Stuttgart 21 in The Guardian of 4 October 2010:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/04/germany-stuttgart-rail-development-election

Article about Stuttgart 21 in The Independent of 9 August 2010:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-terminal-for-merkels-coalition-2047321.html

Site about architectural significance of current Stuttgart station (in English):
http://www.hauptbahnhof-stuttgart.eu/EN/index.html

Alternative to Stuttgart 21 (in German):
http://www.kopfbahnhof-21.de/

 

[gordonthemoron]

I'm surprised that there are trees that old in Stuttgart. There are no trees older than 65 years in either Munich or Berlin as they were all chopped down for firewood after WWII

 

[Feuerbach]

I'm surprised that there are trees that old in Stuttgart. There are no trees older than 65 years in either Munich or Berlin as they were all chopped down for firewood after WWII

That's what makes people all the more angry. These trees were left untouched even during the hard winters after the war and now they're being destroyed for an unwanted station. The centre of Stuttgart is pretty compact and I suppose the forests on the surrounding hills were a near enough source of wood.

Some photos here: http://webdax.homepage.t-online.de/baumpatenschaft/parkbilder.html

Picture 2 here shows the biggest tree felled on 1 October: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gal...many-stuttgart-21#/?picture=367221732&index=1

 

[MatajariPunjab]

The problem is that Stuttgart 21 will provide Stuttgart with a rail service which is inferior to the current one, will cost at least 10 billion euros and take 10-15 years to build.

I am sorry to disagree sir, but this is wrong. Studies from respected experts like SMA show that the Stuttgart 21 train station will double the capacity of the current station. That under some estimates this will only just be enough to accommodate future demand is irrelevant, because the alternative K21 that you suggest will have nowhere near that capacity. Stuttgart 21 will shorten travel times between a host of regional towns and the airport even including several new stops. For example travel time between Esslingen and Ludwigsburg (where I live) will be halved. If you want to reach the airport from say the Black forest, you will be able to do that in half the time. Because trains will be able to directly connect cities through Stuttgart airport without taking the long cumbersome route into the city through areas where people actually have to live and then the same route out again. You will for example be able to go straight from Heilbronn to the airport and onwards to Ulm at least 20 Minutes faster than with every alternative (a alternative that includes a high speed line to Ulm which your ilk now also opposes). The time the Station will take to build is exactly ten years till 2019. Every other estimation is an exaggeration for the arguments sake that isn't founded in reliable facts to scare people.

Originally conceived over 20 years ago, the station project is rejected by about three quarters of the population of Stuttgart.

This is wrong. While it may be true that through the politics of fear that have been employed by opponents of the new station, there has been a recent spike of opposition. But through all the years of planning studies have shown that there was always a typical 30 in favor / 30 no opinion /30 opposed split. In fact many of the opponents of the station intimidate people with different opinions and are so fanatical that they don't realize that not everybody supports them. They block roads forcing working people to be stuck in traffic jams without help. They defame politicians who support the project as corrupt or worse. Respected business people who have made Baden-Württemberg the strong land that it is have been set upon by a internet mob of left-wing extremists for supporting the project. Besides this project is not only important for Stuttgart, it is essential for the whole of Baden-Württemberg. Recent studies by Spiegel have revealed that in spite the terror brought upon my home city by the opponents the project has still a support of 46 vs 43 percent against in the whole of the state.

show the three-level complex of underpasses and overpasses which allows trains to cross each others' paths without holding each other up. This is regarded as a rather fine piece of railway engineering (which contributes to making the current terminus station the most efficient in Germany) but this, too will eventually be demolished.

What you celebrate here is a concrete and metal wasteland that blights Stuttgarts inner city. It secludes the poorest neighborhoods in town like Stuttgart Nord from the rest of town. Stuttgart is a city in a steep valley which lacks space for development. Instead a third of the level ground at the bottom of the valley is taken up by crumbling railway infrastructure. Stuttgart 21 represents the unparalleled opportunity to get rid of this eyesore that otherwise would have to be renovated to the tune of 1,6 billion euros with out any special advantages. The inner city park will be enhanced in the new areas. 3000 new trees will be planted. There will be a new part of town and new connections will be build to and fro parts of the city that are now secluded. A new light rail will connect the blighted Stuttgart Nord that up until now has now good public transport connection to the rest of the city.

The extensive tunnelling work involved in Stuttgart 21 is a threat to the city's mineral water springs while the geology of the region makes tunnel construction extremely difficult and costly.

This is the most blatant lie perpetrated by the opponents of this project. Several experts have through the 15 years of planning repeatedly come to the conclusion that there will be no threat to the wells. Ample precautions have been taken to protect them. Stuttgart because of its geography already has massive tunneling including for commuter trains, cars and light rail much deeper than the Stuttgart 21 tunnel will ever be. There has been no effect on the mineral water. Stuttgart is home to countless underground parking lots that are almost as low as the new train station... no effect on the mineral water. The mineral water flows through that part of Stuttgart in areas 50 meters below surface. The train station will only be 20 meters below surface including concrete slaps for stability (the actual place where the trains stop will be 12 meters underground).

The protest against Stuttgart 21 is about much more than a station building and a park. Over the years there have been repeated calls for a referendum on the project, but these have always been rejected. 67,000 people in the city signed a petition calling for a referendum, but responsibility for the project was quickly shifted to regional level so that the mayor of Stuttgart could argue that a referendum was no longer admissible. Local, regional and national politicians never tire of pointing out that Stuttgart 21 has been approved by democratically elected bodies. Unfortunately, those democratically elected bodies made their decisions on the basis of what has now been found to be erroneous information. Costs were played down (the official cost of the project (underground station+HSL to Ulm) is now about 7 billion euros, but the real cost is likely to be greater than 10 billion euros) while the benefits of the new station and rail infrastructure were played up.

Exactly. Democratically elected bodies have voted for the project. It is only for these parliaments that have always voted with up to 90 percent approval for the project to decide to leave it. We can not have politics being dictated by the mob in the street. Germany and Baden-Württemberg are representative democracies. Scope for direct democracy is limited by the constitution. The decision on the project itself is a decision taken by the federal parliament in Berlin. It is responsible for the planning of railways. How can you justify that a referendum in Stuttgart will replace the will of the parliament in Berlin for the whole of Germany or the will of the parliament for the whole of Baden-Württemberg. That is why your stupid referendum demand is impossible to meet. It is illegal.

All the major parties in Germany (the German conservative party and the German labour party as well as the German liberals) support the project for good reason. It is very important for the future of Stuttgart. The opponents of the project (Green party and the extremist "The left"-party) endanger the future of the city for small political gain at the next election. They try to overturn democratic decisions in the streets. But who has voted for the leaders of this so called resistance? Nobody. The have instigated a campaign of fear. They tell people that their houses will collapse or that the will die in a fire in the tunnel. But for a good part of the protesters that have now been recruited from all over Germany (Just today fanatic anti-nuclear protesters from norther Germany tried to block the building works...) this is about much more than a train station. The want to turn Baden-Württemberg, which has always been governed by a local liberal blend of German conservatism into a left leaning state. You just have to listen to some of the reasons people protest. They call the federal republic of Germany a country of capitalist criminals. When I talked to a opponent recently he admitted that he had no alternative, because he doesn't need one. He doesn't want to go anywhere fast and despises people who work all day. He wants them to take up another lifestyle. That is why he opposes the project.

Should an important project like this, as a result of which 3000 new trees will be planted, be stopped because some pretty old trees will have to go (the number 300 includes small and younger trees)? If you answer in the affirmative you have already made a big step away from a society that can keep up in global competition and be economically successful. A project that has been 15 years in planning cannot be stopped because that would mean political gain for a fringe party.

But the most galling fact about the opposition to this project is that the opponents have no alternative. Their plan K21 calls for the construction of at least 2 new railway lines in crowded Stuttgart. These new lines will run through neighborhoods where people already have to live very close to the tracks. They will protest as well. To top that up, you will also need tunneling and you will need a bridge through one of the most beautiful valleys in the Stuttgart area. And you will have to cut down some pretty old trees. K21 will not be much cheaper. There will be no profit from selling the freed up land (Instead new areas in growing Stuttgart will have to be build where there is nature now). Deutsche Bahn will have to cancel building contracts with companies that have already been awarded to the tune of 400 Million Euros and rising. There is no funding for your project, because the federal and EU money is only for Stuttgart 21. And worst of all it will take another 15 years until a decision on it can be feasibly reached. And it doesn't offer the benefit of the connection to the airport or the new space in Stuttgart.

 

[brianthegiant]

hmm, interesting, anyone know if stuttgart 21 will reduce the journey time from Stuttgart to Tübingen? at the moment it takes a circuitous route & takes and hour, (compared to 30 mins driving).

The thing I find ironic about stuttgart 21 is the political capital the local green party are making from opposing it, do we not need better high speed rai links to compete with short haul aviation to reduce carbon & noise emissions, reduce dependance on fossil fuels & improve energy security etc...

 

[Feuerbach]

I am sorry to disagree sir...

The SMA study of the Stuttgart 21 project was commissioned by the interior ministry of Baden-Württemberg who then kept it locked away for two years because the study concluded that there was a high risk that the stability of the timetable could not be maintained, that the entire system would be difficult to manage and that there was little scope for changing the timetable to offer additional services.

When the SMA report was leaked to Stern magazine and published, the interior ministry first dismissed it as out of date and then promptly reacted to one of the points criticised in it by agreeing that a second line to the airport was required.

Yes, it will be nice for people from Heilbronn who want to go to the airport and Ulm. But will it work? On the days when everything works perfectly certain S-Bahn routes will be faster. When things go wrong (and they went wrong quite often during the summer) there will no longer be the capacity of the overground platforms at the terminus station to fall back on. Deutsche Bahn is incapable of operating its existing system properly. It is obsessed with cutting investment and maximising profit to get ready for privatisation. And aren't there better ways of spending 10 billion euros of taxpayers' money?

It's going to take exactly ten years to build? The architect Ingenhoven, Sobek the architect/building engineer, and Azer the DB-Projektbau manager don't even know whether the tower of the Hauptbahnhof is built on oak piles or not. The oak piles used to be mentioned on the project web site but then, when people started asking what happens when the groundwater is lowered (won't the oak piles dry out and be weakened?) the reference to them was suddenly removed. Is the tower supported on oak piles or concrete ones? If Azer and company don't know, they shouldn't start lowering the groundwater. If they do know, why don't they tell the public?

Then there are all the difficulties associated with the geology of the Stuttgart area. They will have to tunnel near the existing Wagenburg road tunnel, which was meant to be a twin tunnel but the second bore was abandoned because of the problems with the Gipskeuper - info here: http://www.schutzbauten-stuttgart.d...nutzung/tabid/374/language/de-DE/Default.aspx

As for defaming politicians... How could anybody defend the politicians who were behind the police action of 30 September?

Concrete and metal wasteland? DB Chairman Rüdiger Grube even called it a "Schandfleck" a "shameful stain" on the city. But it's been there for 150 years (the lines to the first Stuttgart station ran on the same route). The railway lines were there before most of the current city existed. This nonsense about reuniting a divided city is one of the most ridiculous arguments from the pro-Stuttgart 21 side. The real shameful stain on Stuttgart is the hideous, soulless collection of banks built next to the current station. That also applies to the new library which is popularly known as "Stammheim 2".

Many of the 3000 new trees (sometimes it's 5000) will be lining streets. Might look OK in a hundred years or so. At least they will partly obscure the hideous banks and the library. The extra park land will be much further from the city centre park area which will be destroyed by the new station. And the new station will cut the park in half with an 8-metre high grass-covered concrete barrier (actually the station roof but it is optimistically called the Strassbourger Platz) topped with 4-metre high skylights. Ingenhoven, the architect, likes to boast that it will be a zero-energy station? What about the 50 escalators and I don't know how many lifts (at the moment there is completely level access from street level to the platforms)? He says it won't need heating or cooling. How many railway stations this side of Murmansk or Rangoon need heating or cooling? It's just cynical greenwash.

What's going to be built on the land that's freed up? Offices, hotels, unaffordable housing and a shopping centre (built/operated by ECE - who have interesting links to various politicians in Stuttgart - German TV reported on this a few days ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6SHxS9I-Ls&feature=player_embedded ).

And if the rail infrastructure is crumbling at the moment, it's because it has been criminally neglected by DB over the past 15 years.

Mineral water - yes there are tunnels and underground car parks already. But nothing on the scale of the new underground station and its tunnels which run at right angles to the flow of water. There are experts who say the mineral water is at risk. Who knows? If things are left as they are the mineral water will be safe. If the new station is built, it might not.

I will not comment on your opinion of the Stuttgart 21 opponents other than to say that before politicians/DB put pressure on him to blast the protesters with water cannon and pepper spray, Stuttgart Police Chief Siegfried Stumpf said that, in the past decades, he had never seen a protest "by so many intelligent people, with so much creativity and organisational talent".

As for the claim that people had plenty of opportunities to object to S21. Please read this article which appeared in the Süddeutsche Zeitung a few days ago. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...stuttgart-und-der-unheilbare-mangel-1.1013415
It shows that the decision to go ahead with Stuttgart 21 was taken in November 1995 and any alleged consultation process was about irrelevant details. The people of Stuttgart have been stitched up by their elected representatives.

K21 (Kopfbahnhof 21 which would keep the terminus station) is an alternative. The space for the additional lines is already there on existing DB land and the bridge would cross the industrial area between Obertürkheim and Mettingen. I'm not sure I'd call that one of the "most beautiful valleys in the Stuttgart area". And in any case, since when did Pro-Stuttgart 21 people give a damn about what the landscape looked like? If Stuttgart 21 is built, train passengers will see nothing of the attractive surroundings of the city as they will be confined to the 60 kilometres of tunnels you want to build. K21 would cost perhaps 1.5 billion euros compared with the offical figure of 4.1 billion for S21.

And the EU isn't funding a single penny of the station part of Stuttgart 21. It is providing some funding for the high-speed line after 2016.

 

[Feuerbach]

hmm, interesting, anyone know if stuttgart 21 will reduce the journey time from Stuttgart to Tübingen? at the moment it takes a circuitous route & takes and hour, (compared to 30 mins driving).

The thing I find ironic about stuttgart 21 is the political capital the local green party are making from opposing it, do we not need better high speed rai links to compete with short haul aviation to reduce carbon & noise emissions, reduce dependance on fossil fuels & improve energy security etc...

At the moment, according to

http://www.bahnprojekt-stuttgart-ul...chnell_unterwegs/regionalverkehr/default.aspx

the fastest journey time from Stuttgart to Tübingen is 45 minutes (most trains take 61 minutes). It is claimed that Stuttgart 21 will reduce the journey time to 41 minutes and these fast trains will be more frequent. But with only 8 platforms in the new station (as opposed to 16 at present), there isn't much slack in the system. I'm not familiar with the Tübingen area. I believe that some of the lines around there are not electrified and as diesel locomotives will not be allowed to use the new underground station, some passengers who currently have direct services to Stuttgart will have to change trains - in Tübingen? The likelihood that there will be any funding for electrification in the future is reduced by the cannibalisation effect of Stuttgart 21. The line from Stuttgart to Singen has been a single-track route since the end of the war when the French took the second track as a reparation payment. Shouldn't DB be fixing this instead of blowing billions of euros of taxpayers' money on a prestige project that will look good in their privatisation brochures?

You might enjoy this Pro-Stuttgart 21 video. It's a computer-generated fantasy about the HSL between Ulm and Stuttgart which involves digging numerous tunnels through some of the most difficult geology imaginable. Note how the fate of the existing Hauptbahnhof ("Bonatzbau") is glossed over at the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbM0RtOXmxI&feature=player_embedded

The video provides a glimpse of the new, suspiciously white, station but doesn't tell you that it has been given a special dispensation in order to allow it to be built with a 15% slope from one end of the platforms to the other. This means that it will be impossible to couple or separate trains there. The platforms will also have to be built with a transverse slope away from the edge to prevent luggage trolleys from rolling onto the track. That doesn't sound like good planning to me. That sounds like they're desperate to build this thing and grab the land that'll be freed up.

I agree that better rail links are a good idea, but I don't think high-speed rail is always automatically the answer. Isn't it better to invest in giving people the rail services that they can rely on and that connect with each other usefully? An integrated regular-service timetable is what is required. This is possible with the current station, but out of the question with Stuttgart 21.

It's a pity there isn't really any English-language material about the alternatives to Stuttgart 21 as it would be interesting to hear what people in this forum think about them. Non-German speakers could still download the alternative K21 brochure here (6.3 MB) http://www.kopfbahnhof-21.de/fileadmin/bilder/stellungnahmen/K21_Altern_zu_S21_4_Auflage.pdf and have a look at the diagram of the new airport station (on page 29, PDF-page 15) which would be built as part of Stuttgart 21. There are five escalator levels to negotiate. This is probably good news for ThyssenKrupp but not for people with luggage.

Tomorrow (22 October) the first session in the "mediation" process between S21 opponents and DB/regional government is being held in Stuttgart. This is widely viewed as the pro-faction just playing for time and hoping the protests will die down. There isn't anything to mediate. Either they build it or they don't. But the DB won't even reveal the "true" costs. The interest in this is so intense that the proceedings will be shown live on the web/TV here: http://www.phoenix.de/content//332677 and here: http://fluegel.tv/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am sorry to disagree sir...

I thought I had posted this yesterday but it didn't appear - here goes again:

The SMA study of the Stuttgart 21 project was commissioned by the interior ministry of Baden-Württemberg who then kept it locked away for two years because the study concluded that there was a high risk that the stability of the timetable could not be maintained, that the entire system would be difficult to manage and that there was little scope for changing the timetable to offer additional services.

When the SMA report was leaked to Stern magazine and published, the interior ministry first dismissed it as out of date and then promptly reacted to one of the points criticised in it by agreeing that a second line to the airport was required.

Yes, it will be nice for people from Heilbronn who want to go to the airport and Ulm. But will it work? On the days when everything works perfectly certain S-Bahn routes will be faster. When things go wrong (and they went wrong quite often during the summer) there will no longer be the capacity of the overground platforms at the terminus station to fall back on. Deutsche Bahn is incapable of operating its existing system properly. It is obsessed with cutting investment and maximising profit to get ready for privatisation. And aren't there better ways of spending 10 billion euros of taxpayers' money?

It's going to take exactly ten years to build? The architect Ingenhoven, Sobek the architect/building engineer, and Azer the DB-Projektbau manager don't even know whether the tower of the Hauptbahnhof is built on oak piles or not. The oak piles used to be mentioned on the project web site but then, when people started asking what happens when the groundwater is lowered (won't the oak piles dry out and be weakened?) the reference to them was suddenly removed. Is the tower supported on oak piles or concrete ones? If Azer and company don't know, they shouldn't start lowering the groundwater. If they do know, why don't they tell the public?

Then there are all the difficulties associated with the geology of the Stuttgart area. They will have to tunnel near the existing Wagenburg road tunnel, which was meant to be a twin tunnel but the second bore was abandoned because of the problems with the Gipskeuper - info here: http://www.schutzbauten-stuttgart.d...nutzung/tabid/374/language/de-DE/Default.aspx

As for defaming politicians... How could anybody defend the politicians who were behind the police action of 30 September?

Concrete and metal wasteland? DB Chairman Rüdiger Grube even called it a "Schandfleck" a "shameful stain" on the city. But it's been there for 150 years (the lines to the first Stuttgart station ran on the same route). The railway lines were there before most of the current city existed. This nonsense about reuniting a divided city is one of the most ridiculous arguments from the pro-Stuttgart 21 side. The real shameful stain on Stuttgart is the hideous, soulless collection of banks built next to the current station. That also applies to the new library which is popularly known as "Stammheim 2".

Many of the 3000 new trees (sometimes it's 5000) will be lining streets. Might look OK in a hundred years or so. At least they will partly obscure the hideous banks and the library. The extra park land will be much further from the city centre park area which will be destroyed by the new station. And the new station will cut the park in half with an 8-metre high grass-covered concrete barrier (actually the station roof but it is optimistically called the Strassbourger Platz) topped with 4-metre high skylights. Ingenhoven, the architect, likes to boast that it will be a zero-energy station? What about the 50 escalators and I don't know how many lifts (at the moment there is completely level access from street level to the platforms)? He says it won't need heating or cooling. How many railway stations this side of Murmansk or Rangoon need heating or cooling? It's just cynical greenwash.

What's going to be built on the land that's freed up? Offices, hotels, unaffordable housing and a shopping centre (built/operated by ECE - who have interesting links to various politicians in Stuttgart - German TV reported on this a few days ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6SHxS9I-Ls&feature=player_embedded ).

And if the rail infrastructure is crumbling at the moment, it's because it has been criminally neglected by DB over the past 15 years.

Mineral water - yes there are tunnels and underground car parks already. But nothing on the scale of the new underground station and its tunnels which run at right angles to the flow of water. There are experts who say the mineral water is at risk. Who knows? If things are left as they are the mineral water will be safe. If the new station is built, it might not.

I will not comment on your opinion of the Stuttgart 21 opponents other than to say that before politicians/DB put pressure on him to blast the protesters with water cannon and pepper spray, Stuttgart Police Chief Siegfried Stumpf said that, in the past decades, he had never seen a protest "by so many intelligent people, with so much creativity and organisational talent".

As for the claim that people had plenty of opportunities to object to S21. Please read this article which appeared in the Süddeutsche Zeitung a few days ago. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...stuttgart-und-der-unheilbare-mangel-1.1013415
It shows that the decision to go ahead with Stuttgart 21 was taken in November 1995 and any alleged consultation process was about irrelevant details. The people of Stuttgart have been stitched up by their elected representatives.

K21 (Kopfbahnhof 21 which would keep the terminus station) is an alternative. The space for the additional lines is already there on existing DB land and the bridge would cross the industrial area between Obertürkheim and Mettingen. I'm not sure I'd call that one of the "most beautiful valleys in the Stuttgart area". And in any case, since when did Pro-Stuttgart 21 people give a damn about what the landscape looked like? If Stuttgart 21 is built, train passengers will see nothing of the attractive surroundings of the city as they will be confined to the 60 kilometres of tunnels you want to build. K21 would cost perhaps 1.5 billion euros compared with the offical figure of 4.1 billion for S21.

And the EU isn't funding a single penny of the station part of Stuttgart 21. It is providing some funding for the high-speed line after 2016.

Postscript
Today's mediation session actually went rather well for the S21 opponents. The Deutsche Bahn expert with the permanent grin and Baden-Württemberg environment/transport minister Tanja Gönner failed to come up with any arguments that would justify the vast sums involved in S21.

 

[MatajariPunjab]

At the moment, according to

http://www.bahnprojekt-stuttgart-ul...chnell_unterwegs/regionalverkehr/default.aspx

the fastest journey time from Stuttgart to Tübingen is 45 minutes (most trains take 61 minutes). It is claimed that Stuttgart 21 will reduce the journey time to 41 minutes and these fast trains will be more frequent. But with only 8 platforms in the new station (as opposed to 16 at present), there isn't much slack in the system. I'm not familiar with the Tübingen area. I believe that some of the lines around there are not electrified and as diesel locomotives will not be allowed to use the new underground station, some passengers who currently have direct services to Stuttgart will have to change trains - in Tübingen? The likelihood that there will be any funding for electrification in the future is reduced by the cannibalisation effect of Stuttgart 21. The line from Stuttgart to Singen has been a single-track route since the end of the war when the French took the second track as a reparation payment. Shouldn't DB be fixing this instead of blowing billions of euros of taxpayers' money on a prestige project that will look good in their privatisation brochures?

The new journey time to Tübingen will be 41 minutes and will include a stop at the airport and all the other stops on route. The journey time that you quote (45 minutes) is for a train that only goes four times a day and only stops at Reutlingen. The comparable train with all the stops that goes every hour takes a bit more than one hour.

The passenger demand for the route to singen doesn't justify spending billions on the line at the moment. It is sufficient for one train an hour in each direction and a faster train to Zurich every three hours. Of course there are always a lot of worthwhile projects in infrastructure. Fortunately that doesn't mean that every other project is bad investment because you could build something else. You have acknowledged that there is a bad need for investment in the Stuttgart Area rail infrastructure. Perhaps DB can be forgiven to give that more of a priority than the Stuttgart-Singen route.

I agree that better rail links are a good idea, but I don't think high-speed rail is always automatically the answer. Isn't it better to invest in giving people the rail services that they can rely on and that connect with each other usefully? An integrated regular-service timetable is what is required. This is possible with the current station, but out of the question with Stuttgart 21.

1. A High-Speed rail link between Munich and Stuttgart which probably are Germany's most prosperous regions is a good idea. At the moment there are direct flights between the two cities or people take the car. Of course there is evidence a plenty in Germany and in other countries that a high-speed raillink significantly increases the percentage of rail in travel between regions. And of course there is a knock on effect for routes like Munich-cologne. Without the connection Stuttgart-Munich there will just be a hole in the high speed rail network in Germany.

2. This integrated regular-service timetable that you mention here is of course a cause celebre for the Green party, but unfortunately not the system that Germany has at the moment. Germany isn't Switzerland. It is the model by a certain green and left-lining Club (called VCD Verkehrsclub Deutschland) in Germany. They sponsor a lot of studies on the subject and think it cures all ills. They violently opposse high-speed rail because like you they think it is only used by a small part of the population. DB thinks the ITF model is rubbish, because it isn't applicable to Germany and would require the whole network to change. Not only in Stuttgart but in the whole of Germany.

So you spread the propaganda of a small group of fanatical opponents of high-speed rail. Fair enough. That is a opinion that one can hold. But in Germany the parliament has decided long ago that it wants high speed rail. Should Stuttgart now be the only place where the green fantasys of a slow life in community with nature for the unambitious should be realised? I don't think so. Particularily because Stuttgart realy would be the only place. The rest of Germany will happily invest in high-speed rail. Stuttgart will be left behind with a system that can't work because that is not the system of the rest of the country. Why don't you explain that to the folks you feed this information.

Of course it is wrong to suggest that the new train-station will not be able to handle the traffic. As mentioned above DB will not and do not build trainstations for a lot of money that can't handle the traffic they earn their money with. Studies show that conclusively. Everythign else is a rather silly conspiracy theory of epic proportions made to fit the mindset of critics of capitalism, change and our modern way of life. DB would hurt itself just because some people have been bought or because companies are bad by definion...

The SMA study of the Stuttgart 21 project was commissioned by the interior ministry of Baden-Württemberg who then kept it locked away for two years because the study concluded that there was a high risk that the stability of the timetable could not be maintained, that the entire system would be difficult to manage and that there was little scope for changing the timetable to offer additional services.

What the SMA study shows is that the new train station will just be sufficient for the traffic that DB plan to have in the new station in 20 years time. It was commissioned to have a look at possibilities how the design could be made more efficient. The specific question was: Do possible improvements offer good value for money. Many of the suggestions in the SMA study were implemented. That is why it was right to say the study was outdated. It is a complicated and critical study that everyone who does a project like this should commission. Of course in the hands of people who want to make politics and don't look for improvements, the citing of selective parts of the study could be used to damage the project. The improvement that was suggested was on the list of things SMA said could just justify their cost by the value they provide. More significantly the study shows, as I have said above, that the S21 infrastructure will be able to handle the demands and that your point that it will not is wrong.

The real shameful stain on Stuttgart is the hideous, soulless collection of banks built next to the current station. That also applies to the new library which is popularly known as "Stammheim 2".

I find the new libary fantastic. It was choosen in an open contest between 200 different suggestions. It will look splendid when it is finished and has its intended colour. You see architecutre is a matter of taste. You may not like some of the buildings that are being build now. Others like them. Huge parts of the land that will be freed by the project aren't planned now. So you can't say that you will not like them. You just assume that you won't. You are so convinced that you would rather have railway tracks instead. Congratulations.

The extra park land will be much further from the city centre park area which will be destroyed by the new station. And the new station will cut the park in half with an 8-metre high grass-covered concrete barrier (actually the station roof but it is optimistically called the Strassbourger Platz) topped with 4-metre high skylights.

What you say about Ingenhovens architecture is again a matter of taste. I can only tell you that he has one a couple of very renowned international competitions with the Stuttgart station design and that I happen to like it.

You again insists that the park will be destroyed. Come on... The park as I said stretches 3 miles through Stuttgart. 200 meters of it will be remodeled. So you will have to go 200 meters further from the center to be in the exact same park as before only that it will be significantly bigger. Should I take this seriously?

And in any case, since when did Pro-Stuttgart 21 people give a damn about what the landscape looked like? If Stuttgart 21 is built, train passengers will see nothing of the attractive surroundings of the city as they will be confined to the 60 kilometres of tunnels you want to build. K21 would cost perhaps 1.5 billion euros compared with the offical figure of 4.1 billion for S21.

I absolutely care about the landscape of the city. The one that people who live in the city see. I don't care wether people who come by train have the best views in somebodys garden or apartment bathroom. If they want to have a look around the city they should visit it and not only drive through it. What an argument. People should be living with the noise of the trains so that the travellers can have a good look at them....

And again: Your 1,5 billion Euro estimate just is untenable. Thats what it will cost to renovate the station to status quo at least. Without your additional tracks and your grand new ceilling. But even if that were true you would have to add the 800-1000 million euros that the city will earn selling the properties. That is money one can't make with K21. And you will not have a straight connection to the airport and you will not have the land to develop the city. And you will not have the advantages of a through-station. (I hope you haven't forgotten, that in a situation where you can decide between a terminus and a station, you should always go for the station because it is more flexible. But propaganda and glorification of the old leaves one sometimes unaware of the obvious)

Today's mediation session actually went rather well for the S21 opponents. The Deutsche Bahn expert with the permanent grin and Baden-Württemberg environment/transport minister Tanja Gönner failed to come up with any arguments that would justify the vast sums involved in S21.

Again your personal interpretation. Influenced obviously by the bad feelings you have talked yourself into about these politicians and people from DB. You didn't like the facts that the DB man told you, so you decided you don't like his face. I am sorry to be picky, but that is exactly the way many people think about politics. But it is no way to decide about a complex rail-station.