Struggling with shifts

[BigDog]

Therefore you are fooling yourself and putting others at risk.

Not worth it at all.

Not only can this cause serious harm but it could result in prison time.

A quick google explains the dangers of fatigue and no matter how well you think you are coping with it, you aren’t! The human brain simply cannot function properly with continuous lack of sleep.

Do the right thing and take care of yourself and others and speak to management and see what ideas they come up with.

I’m not gonna lie I also get the feeling you aren’t quite implementing the best techniques to get sleep, it comes across a little like if the idea doesn’t work with you then you will dismiss it.

Mate, I'm not a teenager who falls to sleep at work, I manage to cope and man up. I'm never at the stage where I can't concentrate, it's something you learn to put up with, but I know it's not healthy for the body & mind.

Where do you get that idea from? I wear a blindfold, wear ear plugs, what more do you expect me to do? As I said, I can fall to sleep fine, it's having a good sleep that is the problem.

 

[tram21]

If you are doing safety critical work, you will be signing in to declare you are fit to complete the work, which includes being free from the affects of drugs & alcohol, and not being to fatigued to complete the safety critical work. By ignoring your fatigue you are committing an offence by completing this safety critical work, which could result in jail time if found out, due to an incident. You may think you're fine, but you probably aren't.

 

[AverageJoe]

Mate, I'm not a teenager who falls to sleep at work, I manage to cope and man up. I'm never at the stage where I can't concentrate, it's something you learn to put up with, but I know it's not healthy for the body & mind.

Where do you get that idea from? I wear a blindfold, wear ear plugs, what more do you expect me to do? As I said, I can fall to sleep fine, it's having a good sleep that is the problem.

You are acting like a teenager by ignoring all the rules and previous evidence of how fatigue costs lives in a safety critical role.

If it isn’t effecting your work then you must be the 1 person on planet earth that can do that.

You are a risk to me and anyone that uses the rail if you keep up with this attitude.

I didn’t come on this thread to challenge you, I wanted to help but the way you are acting is reckless and irresponsible and ultimately a mistake could be just around the corner and it could be me on the receiving end.

1 or 2 nights poor sleep while adjusting I can understand and it’s normal but 4/5 weeks or nights where you are regularly getting 4 hours sleep to the point that you are suffering mental health problems says you are a potential danger to me.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Mate, I'm not a teenager who falls to sleep at work, I manage to cope and man up. I'm never at the stage where I can't concentrate, it's something you learn to put up with, but I know it's not healthy for the body & mind.

Where do you get that idea from? I wear a blindfold, wear ear plugs, what more do you expect me to do? As I said, I can fall to sleep fine, it's having a good sleep that is the problem.

The people replying to this thread are trying to give you advice. The important thing is if you are struggling to cope with the shifts you need to listen to the advice given.

 

[Charladenz]

@BigDog I currently do 12.5 hour nightshifts in the NHS, they are soul destroying when I don't get enough sleep, and I struggle similarly to you with the quality of the short sleep.

Things that help:

I now use the Tommee Tippee Blackout cover for the window (it's been a staple to ensure i get darkness to sleep) I don't use my phone at all from the time I finish work till bed to limit the blue light. I make sure to have breakfast before I leave work - if possible. It limits the boost of things to do when you get home before you can get to bed.

I'm not sure what the TOC policy is - but zinc & magnesium supplements are fantastic for the body and aiding sleep.
If you are still struggling after trying some new things I'd speak to your manager/occy health or an outside support agency. Burnout is not pretty & it's very dangerous.

 

[BigDog]

@BigDog I currently do 12.5 hour nightshifts in the NHS, they are soul destroying when I don't get enough sleep, and I struggle similarly to you with the quality of the short sleep.

Things that help:

I now use the Tommee Tippee Blackout cover for the window (it's been a staple to ensure i get darkness to sleep) I don't use my phone at all from the time I finish work till bed to limit the blue light. I make sure to have breakfast before I leave work - if possible. It limits the boost of things to do when you get home before you can get to bed.

I'm not sure what the TOC policy is - but zinc & magnesium supplements are fantastic for the body and aiding sleep.
If you are still struggling after trying some new things I'd speak to your manager/occy health or an outside support agency. Burnout is not pretty & it's very dangerous.

Cheers, I will try the blinds, I do take magnesium, have done for several months now and it hasn't improved things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==

You are acting like a teenager by ignoring all the rules and previous evidence of how fatigue costs lives in a safety critical role.

If it isn’t effecting your work then you must be the 1 person on planet earth that can do that.

You are a risk to me and anyone that uses the rail if you keep up with this attitude.

I didn’t come on this thread to challenge you, I wanted to help but the way you are acting is reckless and irresponsible and ultimately a mistake could be just around the corner and it could be me on the receiving end.

1 or 2 nights poor sleep while adjusting I can understand and it’s normal but 4/5 weeks or nights where you are regularly getting 4 hours sleep to the point that you are suffering mental health problems says you are a potential danger to me.

I don't know how many times I have told you, I'm not ignoring the rules or anyone's advice, I have tried most things to try and improve my sleep.

I have just started a new job at NWR, you make it sound so black & white, either speak up or find another job, etc. In reality things are not so simple when pressure, pride and embarrassment come in to play. Wouldn't it be great if things were so simple?

 

[AverageJoe]

Cheers, I will try the blinds, I do take magnesium, have done for several months now and it hasn't improved things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==


I don't know how many times I have told you, I'm not ignoring the rules or anyone's advice, I have tried most things to try and improve my sleep.

I have just started a new job at NWR, you make it sound so black & white, either speak up or find another job, etc. In reality things are not so simple when pressure, pride and embarrassment come in to play. Wouldn't it be great if things were so simple?

You are coming in to work a safety critical role on a regular basis while fatigued.

Whether you agree with that statement or not it’s a fact because you are not super human and you have already stated yourself that you are not getting enough sleep to the point it is having negative effects on you.

Therefore you are presenting a risk to yourself and others but seem more concerned about not being embarrassed by coming forward with this.

I can understand it may be a difficult situation for you, and myself and others on here certainly don’t want you to suffer but you are without doubt showing a willingness to put others at risk because of selfishness.

I have zero tolerance for someone willing to take risks that could involve others. For what you are going through you certainly do have my sympathy.

 

[Horizon22]

May I remind people to please keep the tone respectful and civil in this thread. We appreciate this an emotive subject for several, but please try and be constructive when offering advice. If this cannot be adhered too, this thread will be brought to a close.

Thanks.

 

[BigDog]

You are coming in to work a safety critical role on a regular basis while fatigued.

Whether you agree with that statement or not it’s a fact because you are not super human and you have already stated yourself that you are not getting enough sleep to the point it is having negative effects on you.

Therefore you are presenting a risk to yourself and others but seem more concerned about not being embarrassed by coming forward with this.

I can understand it may be a difficult situation for you, and myself and others on here certainly don’t want you to suffer but you are without doubt showing a willingness to put others at risk because of selfishness.

I have zero tolerance for someone willing to take risks that could involve others. For what you are going through you certainly do have my sympathy.

You are correct and it's something I will address sooner rather than later, I must.

 

[AverageJoe]

You are correct and it's something I will address sooner rather than later, I must.

Well I would like to encourage you to do it immediately BigDog because once a mistake happens there is no going back.

And if there was an investigation launched it’s possibly they could even refer to your comments on here which could be quite damning.

Although I have used strong wording I have no animosity towards you.

However this is a very serious subject, remember many thousands use the railway on a daily basis and each and every safety feature provided including HIDDEN (being fit for work) came about because of mistake that happened and some of which killed people. They are not just there for the sake of it.

 

[BigDog]

Well I would like to encourage you to do it immediately BigDog because once a mistake happens there is no going back.

And if there was an investigation launched it’s possibly they could even refer to your comments on here which could be quite damning.

Although I have used strong wording I have no animosity towards you.

However this is a very serious subject, remember many thousands use the railway on a daily basis and each and every safety feature provided including HIDDEN (being fit for work) came about because of mistake that killed people. They are not just there for the sake of it.

Are they though, yes, you're right in the fact that we have a duty of care to report unfit if we deem ourselves to be. But, in 20+ years I have never been asked how I am feeling at work. I'm sure I'm not the only track worker who has suffered in silence, perhaps employers should be me more proactive, make it easier for people to speak out?

 

[Horizon22]

But, in 20+ years I have never been asked how I am feeling at work. I'm sure I'm not the only track worker who has suffered in silence, perhaps employers should be me more proactive, make it easier for people to speak out?

Oh definitely, especially for male-dominated industries. But the workplace is changing and mental health is taken much more seriously than it once was. I appreciate making their first move might mean you have to swallow some pride, but it is anything but and means you are tackling your issues head-on.

 

[BigDog]

Oh definitely, especially for male-dominated industries. But the workplace is changing and mental health is taken much more seriously than it once was. I appreciate making their first move might mean you have to swallow some pride, but it is anything but and means you are tackling your issues head-on.

Yes, we get campaigns and notices on this but I'm being serious, they feel like a box ticking exercise with very little substance. Maybe I'm being too much of a pessimist but working in this environment you sort of feel that way. It is not easy to speak out.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, we get campaigns and notices on this but I'm being serious, they feel like a box ticking exercise with very little substance. Maybe I'm being too much of a pessimist but working in this environment you sort of feel that way. It is not easy to speak out.

It will end up being a "box-ticking exercise" if nobody ever engages with it. Just like yourself, there may be others who are dealing with this in silence and the only conversation that happens is:

"You alright mate?"
"Yeah not bad, you"
"Yeah can't complain"

Without addressing any issues really.

 

[BigDog]

It will end up being a "box-ticking exercise" if nobody ever engages with it. Just like yourself, there may be others who are dealing with this in silence and the only conversation that happens is:

"You alright mate?"
"Yeah not bad, you"
"Yeah can't complain"

Without addressing any issues really.

Yep, but immediately you are at a disadvantage.

Imagine one of the questions about a role you would like, "Do you enjoy working nights?" "No?"
I have worked on the railway since the age of 18, it's all I know. I know full well i don't enjoy working nights but I have always felt forced in stating I don't mind the shift in interviews.

It's a difficult one and if only it was so easy to just say no or enough is enough.

 

[390123]

Mate, it takes a split second of a lapse in concentration for anything to happen?

I know you've just started this job, but bottom line is we are all human, we don't work to spreadsheets etc..

We all have periods in our lives where things change etc..

The most important thing is to make sure you feel 100% before you start work, for yourself and others around you.. and if not there's always someone to talk to..

I've had experiences like this in the railway, and recently helped a colleague who said he felt a lot better speaking up about it..

At the very least, if you feel uncomfortable talking , just inform your manager or something that you've had a rubbish sleep, roadworks or something ..prior to you starting shift, so he knows you are fatigued and can plan or put something in place ..

The world has changed alot in 20 years, day to day life is tiring with smartphones etc, so it's harder to switch off and relax?

But as I said, your not alone in this

 

[Horizon22]

Yep, but immediately you are at a disadvantage.

Imagine one of the questions about a role you would like, "Do you enjoy working nights?" "No?"
I have worked on the railway since the age of 18, it's all I know. I know full well i don't enjoy working nights but I have always felt forced in stating I don't mind the shift in interviews.

It's a difficult one and if only it was so easy to just say no or enough is enough.

You are going into this with a negative mindset before you have even engaged with the process. A "disadvantage" to who? Nobody is saying you have to immediately stop your nights.

Nobody is taking about "enjoying nights" if you are talking with occupational health - people complain about shifts all the time even those who would hate 9-5! You take the rough with the smooth and shift work obviously has trade-offs.

 

[BigDog]

You are going into this with a negative mindset before you have even engaged with the process. A "disadvantage" to who? Nobody is saying you have to immediately stop your nights.

Nobody is taking about "enjoying nights" if you are talking with occupational health - people complain about shifts all the time even those who would hate 9-5! You take the rough with the smooth and shift work obviously has trade-offs.

Yep, I agree, I think I've worked up a complex about working nights and that has only made my problem worse. I can almost guarantee that if I had all the money in the world with very little stress & worry, that if I stayed up all night watching the stars i would sleep like a baby all morning & afternoon, the mind can be a big pain in the backside.

 

[390123]

Yep, I agree, I think I've worked up a complex about working nights and that has only made my problem worse. I can almost guarantee that if I had all the money in the world with very little stress & worry, that if I stayed up all night watching the stars i would sleep like a baby all morning & afternoon, the mind can be a big pain in the backside.

The mind is also made alot worse with lack of sleep, sleep depravation is a torture technique used for years ..

One of the things I try and tell new people on the job is how important sleep is and getting a routine for working shifts, and offering advice ..

Eye mask, ear plugs etc..

One thing I do which surprises most people is to have the tv on low while I'm drifting off , but on auto power off after 4 hours..so your body gets used to a bit of noise while sleeping ?

Everyone is different and we all have different techniques?

Sometimes if I'm feeling particularly awake when I get home , I relax for an hour or so read the paper/play a game etc before bed to invoke a natural wind down routine?

I do agree with the lip service side, glossy leaflets etc are useless if it's only applicable to help on dayshift ?

It should be in a start of shift brief, to check everyone is fit and well for work..

I know it's tough asking for help, but anyway of letting your superiors know is key, even an initial white lie " sorry boss, I'm knackered, neighbours dog been yapping all day..the so and so"..
While not ideal, You've let your boss know that your tired ..which is the most important thing ..

Wouldn't surprise me if this was law here within the next few years :

Could roadside tests be introduced to see if you are too sleepy to drive? | RAC Drive

New research has shown that new tech could be introduced by police in the next five years to see if drivers are awake enough to be behind the wheel.

www.rac.co.uk

At the very least you've taken the step to ask for help on here , and I hope you won't hesitate to in the future but take it on board and utilise it at work!

All the best !

 

[High Dyke]

I can work a variety of shifts, sometimes in the same week. The joys of being a relief signaller. Personally, I'm a night sort of person; not that it suits everyone though.

I usually only sleep about 4-5 hours at anytime. The bedroom has a blind and blackout curtains, which do reduce light levels. I don't have any children that would otherwise interrupt sleep after a nightshift. However, the fatigue effect it has on a body should not be underestimated.

Network Rail do have employee support. We can all "man up", that's the easy part. The difficult part is being honest with yourself and accepting when things aren't going well. Trust me, I've been there at times. It is human nature.

As someone mentioned. Speak to your manager, your union representative or local mental health champion (where there is one). The important thing is not to remain silent.

 

[Neatro]

As someone who's been in a safety critical role and had to have 3 months off work with burnout, let me tell you it's no joke and the best thing you can do is speak to someone about it.

I was like you, except more erratic, my shifts could go from 5am one week to finishing at 1-2am the next week and then switch back to 4-5am starts.

I was also like you, didn't really think it effected me, carried on as normal until my other half noticed sometimes I seemed a bit distant (thought it might have been some sort of illness).

So I went to see the doctor, saying that I rarely slept 5 hours and would wake up 3-4 times in that time, didn't have the motivation when work was done to do anything, didn't want to go anywhere or do anything as I always felt I needed that time to prepare for bad sleep.

She said it sounded like workplace burnout where the job was literally draining every bit of my away, but until I spoke to a professional and my other half noticed it I didn't even see a problem.

I had 3 months off work, where my main goal was to separate that time away from work and in essence hit the restart button. I ate well, exercises rigorously and actively went out to enjoy myself.

Also in this time I got put on a 6 week online therapy course (it was called silver cloud) which was a self referral through my local university.

Ultimately it was the best thing I could have ever done, and I feel stupid for not speaking to anyone sooner. Work was great, they realised the importance of mental health, my line manager was incredibly supportive and even upon returning to work was eased back into it slowly over weeks.

I still have bad night's sleep sometimes but it's just a day or so of adjustments.

If there's one thing you should do, even if you ignore all of this advice.

It's speak to someone about it, most companies understand how important mental health is, and will fully support you whether you've been there a day, week or years.

The only person that can make a change is you, we can all offer advice. But it's ultimately if you want things to change, you have to be the one to initiate it.

 

[Ken X]

As somebody who worked nights in Aviation engineering for fifteen years, I completely understand and sympathise and well done for speaking up. Hopefully it is the beginning of a solution.

All I can offer is encouragement to swiftly deal with the problem. Towards the end of my nights I was kipping in laybys going home as I was finding it unsafe to continue driving. It was obviously unsustainable and eventually I came off nights. This was my solution. It involved a talk with my employer and a frank exchange of views. I continued to work for them, but only on days.

In 2017 my mother-in-law was involved in an accident where the oncoming car crossed the white line, hitting her car head-on. It transpired the driver was coming off a night shift and had micro-napped. Mil died as a result.

My wife met the driver after the court case and had a long chat with him. She said he was a really nice guy with a young family and was working all hours to provide for them. She said he was punishing himself far more effectively than the courts ever could.

Made me think how lucky I was to not be in a similar position.

 

[BigDog]

Cheers everyone for the advice.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned... have you considered the temperature of your bedroom? It needs to be at a cool (ish) temperature - too hot and you won't sleep

 

[Samsanbor]

I have worked on the railway for over 20 years now and for the last few years I have been struggling with metal health issues.

I have a terrible sleep pattern as it is but working quite regular night shifts Is wiping me out. I struggle to get 4-5 hours sleep when on the shift and I know it's not helping with my mental health issues.

I have only joined NWR around a year ago so I'm reluctant to speak out, I'm at a loss what to do. I love my job but I just can't handle the night shifts anymore.

You stated to have mental health issues.
This is obvious the root reason of the problem and until you fix this there won't be any blindfolds, earplugs or blackout curtains to help improve the quality of your sleep.
If you speak to your GP I'm sure you will get the most beneficial help.

 

[TootTootToot]

Lift the phone to PAM Assist. You can have a confidential chat with them and they may be able to offer support and interventions.

https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/PAM-Assist-poster.pdf

 

[driverd]

I'm venting, and I appreciate the help and I know it's something I need to sort out sooner or later. It's not so easy to speak out, I have always been known as a hard worker, not one to complain, I've always been of the mindset don't show any weakness, stupid I know, but that's what 20+ years of grafting on the track does to a man.

So, just from this post it seems to me that the thing keeping you awake is probably, actually, more to do with you being anxious about not getting enough sleep (ironic, I know).

Everyone is different, I guess, but for me this often was my experience on earlies (I now do 95% layes/nights). I'd try to sleep around 7pm for a 2am alarm, and inevitably only get to sleep somewhere between 10pm and midnight, night after night, getting more and more frustrated about not being able to sleep. It's a pretty common situation for a lot of people - you're not alone!

My suggestions would just echo others - manage your life so you're not too busy during your awake time on nights, take sleep anytime - whenever you feel tired (even if it's for 1 hour intervals here and there through the day). Don't try and power through, just listen to your body and go with it.

As regarding "I'm going to be knackered" stress - only you can work that one out, but try relaxation techniques as much as possible - you'll eventually find something that works, you just need to learn how to switch off.

My way of looking at nights is just to imagine I'm getting home from a night out. Okay, I'm way more sober, but it just helps my mindset and to chill and think about getting a massive sleep.

 

[BigDog]

So, just from this post it seems to me that the thing keeping you awake is probably, actually, more to do with you being anxious about not getting enough sleep (ironic, I know).

Everyone is different, I guess, but for me this often was my experience on earlies (I now do 95% layes/nights). I'd try to sleep around 7pm for a 2am alarm, and inevitably only get to sleep somewhere between 10pm and midnight, night after night, getting more and more frustrated about not being able to sleep. It's a pretty common situation for a lot of people - you're not alone!

My suggestions would just echo others - manage your life so you're not too busy during your awake time on nights, take sleep anytime - whenever you feel tired (even if it's for 1 hour intervals here and there through the day). Don't try and power through, just listen to your body and go with it.

As regarding "I'm going to be knackered" stress - only you can work that one out, but try relaxation techniques as much as possible - you'll eventually find something that works, you just need to learn how to switch off.

My way of looking at nights is just to imagine I'm getting home from a night out. Okay, I'm way more sober, but it just helps my mindset and to chill and think about getting a massive sleep.

Yes, that could be it. It's a question of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Is it the lack of sleep that's causing my stress/anxiety or the other way around. I've never been the best of sleepers so I suspect it's the former, I often feel exhausted but my mind just won't switch off.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Anybody who says they book on for railway shifts not feeling tired is lying. It’s impossible to be well rested working the hours that the railway sends.

 

[AverageJoe]

Anybody who says they book on for railway shifts not feeling tired is lying. It’s impossible to be well rested working the hours that the railway sends.

The first couple of days of a an unsociable start time yes, but 3 weeks or more in a row of poor sleep isn’t normal.