Struggling with shifts

[Cuthbert]

You can also chat to the Railway Chaplain.

I have used them for just this thing albeit i'm not Critical Safety.

They helped a lot be just listening. They do not throw religion at you which did surprise me at first.
They are here for just this kind of thing. And they are happy to meet you at their office if they have one or a coffee shop.

Railway Mission

Railway chaplains aim to be impartial ‘friends’ for those who work on the railways. Regardless of faith, gender, or sexual orientation, our chaplains offer face-to-face year around support, especially during an individual’s time of loneliness, stress, depression, bereavement or illness

www.railwaymission.org

It is a charity and they have offices everywhere. Mental Health is serious and just talking about it can start helping. THey can also suggest others to talk to.

 

[sorry4thedelay]

You know yourself if you are too fatigued to perform a safety-critical task, and I would hope you were put in such a position because you are trusted to use your own judgment.

Let's be honest here: people who say they aren't fatigued after a run of shifts are deluding themselves! We are all human and share the same physiology—by the end of a 'week of shifts,' you are all fatigued! Are you saying you are as safe as you were at the start of the week? At what point do you say enough is enough?

This raises the wider issue of the nonsense that is 'HIDDEN'—13 consecutive days of working with 72 hours over that week is hardly a regulation that implements safety and reduces fatigue!

I understand that workers want a long run of shifts so they can have a long run of days off, but at what cost? There is absolutely no doubt that this impacts safety, and the workers, the union, and the company know it. Until people are willing to raise this issue, nothing will change.

I was amazed, coming into the railway from a safety-critical background, that people were working the maximum allowable shifts (with no choice in some cases, as it's scheduled)—11 or 13 days in a row, and encouraged to work the maximum rest days.

Questions would be raised in any other similar industry.

 

[Horizon22]

This raises the wider issue of the nonsense that is 'HIDDEN'—13 consecutive days of working with 72 hours over that week is hardly a regulation that implements safety and reduces fatigue!

Hidden is an absolute maximum though, not a target. Rosters for safety-critical are built with a fatigue matrix in mind which regulates for different shift patterns, number of RDs, each shift length etc. In fact this in some operational roles changing, such as Network Rail looking towards a maximum of 60hrs for signallers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==

I was amazed, coming into the railway from a safety-critical background, that people were working the maximum allowable shifts (with no choice in some cases, as it's scheduled)—11 or 13 days in a row, and encouraged to work the maximum rest days.

Who is "encouraging" people to work maximum RDs? Sounds like a significant staff shortage to me, if so.

 

[dawny291]

The ORR's Managing rail staff fatigue is a good read. Updated in August this year, and if you don't fancy reading through the whole 91 pages then just skip to section 7 (Do) and take a look at the guidance for shift work, rest days, etc.

And for all the managers/supervisors out there, ROGS 2006 Part 4 Reg 25 says it all!

 

[12LDA28C]

You know yourself if you are too fatigued to perform a safety-critical task, and I would hope you were put in such a position because you are trusted to use your own judgment.

Let's be honest here: people who say they aren't fatigued after a run of shifts are deluding themselves! We are all human and share the same physiology—by the end of a 'week of shifts,' you are all fatigued! Are you saying you are as safe as you were at the start of the week? At what point do you say enough is enough?

This raises the wider issue of the nonsense that is 'HIDDEN'—13 consecutive days of working with 72 hours over that week is hardly a regulation that implements safety and reduces fatigue!

I understand that workers want a long run of shifts so they can have a long run of days off, but at what cost? There is absolutely no doubt that this impacts safety, and the workers, the union, and the company know it. Until people are willing to raise this issue, nothing will change.

I was amazed, coming into the railway from a safety-critical background, that people were working the maximum allowable shifts (with no choice in some cases, as it's scheduled)—11 or 13 days in a row, and encouraged to work the maximum rest days.

Questions would be raised in any other similar industry.

Which TOC or FOC uses a roster that has 11 or 13 'scheduled' (assume you mean rostered) shifts in a row?

 

[Vespa]

I work in a safety critical role and have different shift patterns, the longer you do it you will eventually create a system and routine to help you to sleep.

There's a clear difference between physical and mental rest, physical is easy enough, mental not so much.

How I deal with it is to have a pre sleep routine, I go for a walk forget about work, I don't even think about work once I clocked off, it's a problem for tomorrow, I'm not paid to take it home with me, I watch the news and topical programs and then read on my mobile catching up with my posts and emails as a way of winding down.

Worrying won't change anything, it's a matter keeping it in perspective.

My priorities in life is
Family
Work
Hobbies

That's my technique for handling stress.

Hope that helps

 

[BigDog]

After trying my best to manage with nights I've come to the conclusion that they are not for me. I just don't think it's worth the health risks, sleeping 2-3 hours every day is terrible for your body, even worse when it's doing nights. I'm going to speak to my line manager and ask if I can stay on permanent days, a couple of technicians are on permanent days patrolling, being a team leader he might reject me but if he does I'm informing him that I will be looking for something else.

 

[henke7]

After trying my best to manage with nights I've come to the conclusion that they are not for me. I just don't think it's worth the health risks, sleeping 2-3 hours every day is terrible for your body, even worse when it's doing nights. I'm going to speak to my line manager and ask if I can stay on permanent days, a couple of technicians are on permanent days patrolling, being a team leader he might reject me but if he does I'm informing him that I will be looking for something else.

Hi mate,

I’m just catching up with this thread as I’ve missed it previously. I’m also at NWR and feel your pain the nights are a killer. After ‘modernising maintenance’ every member is now entitled to ‘individual rostering’ which changes every 13 weeks. Is this something you have explored? I would also be contacting your union rep and maybe even get a letter from your GP. Do not accept NO as an answer from management.

 

[BigDog]

Hi mate,

I’m just catching up with this thread as I’ve missed it previously. I’m also at NWR and feel your pain the nights are a killer. After ‘modernising maintenance’ every member is now entitled to ‘individual rostering’ which changes every 13 weeks. Is this something you have explored? I would also be contacting your union rep and maybe even get a letter from your GP. Do not accept NO as an answer from management.

If it wasn't for the lack of sleep I'd love nights, but, no matter what I do I just can't get quality sleep. Individual rostering? I've never heard of that, do you have more details? I don't like being a pain, I only joined NWR in July, I'm not new to the game mind, I'm 40 and I've been on the railway 22 year now.

 

[12LDA28C]

After trying my best to manage with nights I've come to the conclusion that they are not for me. I just don't think it's worth the health risks, sleeping 2-3 hours every day is terrible for your body, even worse when it's doing nights. I'm going to speak to my line manager and ask if I can stay on permanent days, a couple of technicians are on permanent days patrolling, being a team leader he might reject me but if he does I'm informing him that I will be looking for something else.

How exactly have you ‘tried your best’ to manage with nights? Most people find a way to get more than 2-3 hours sleep a day so what is preventing you from getting any more sleep? Have you tried varying the time you go to bed? Using blackout curtains? Eating at different times? Most people can make nights work for them.

 

[henke7]

Nah that definitely isn’t good at all! Need to be sleeping, you can also be highlighting your fatigue which they should be taking notice of.

As you joined after 2014 you can be rostered to work 39 weeks of nights, 39 weekends and 65 weekend shifts. However this is the maximum. After the modernising maintenance, we are not longer rostered as a team any more (I’m S&T) we are rostered individually and renegotiate our roster every 13 weeks. If you can present evidence that this is affecting you, leeway can be given. We have plenty of individuals who are rostered constant dayshift in the maintenance world.

 

[Javelin_55]

After trying my best to manage with nights I've come to the conclusion that they are not for me. I just don't think it's worth the health risks, sleeping 2-3 hours every day is terrible for your body, even worse when it's doing nights. I'm going to speak to my line manager and ask if I can stay on permanent days, a couple of technicians are on permanent days patrolling, being a team leader he might reject me but if he does I'm informing him that I will be looking for something else.

You've done the right thing, good for you. Not always an easy call to take, as you've already said.

I would think the next step would be an appointment at Occ Health to see if there are any massive red flags in your lifestyle. They may want to monitor you for a bit. But their job is to make sure you're able to do your job safely and should fight your corner so that you can. Plus you now have the right to request flexible working and all companies have to have that conversation.

This is something to be optimistic about as it's a step in the right direction.

 

[BigDog]

How exactly have you ‘tried your best’ to manage with nights? Most people find a way to get more than 2-3 hours sleep a day so what is preventing you from getting any more sleep? Have you tried varying the time you go to bed? Using blackout curtains? Eating at different times? Most people can make nights work for them.

Yes, everything. I have no problem falling asleep, I do so almost immediately. But, after 2-3 hours I'm wide awake and that's that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2025 ==

Nah that definitely isn’t good at all! Need to be sleeping, you can also be highlighting your fatigue which they should be taking notice of.

As you joined after 2014 you can be rostered to work 39 weeks of nights, 39 weekends and 65 weekend shifts. However this is the maximum. After the modernising maintenance, we are not longer rostered as a team any more (I’m S&T) we are rostered individually and renegotiate our roster every 13 weeks. If you can present evidence that this is affecting you, leeway can be given. We have plenty of individuals who are rostered constant dayshift in the maintenance world.

It's the same at our depot, there's a couple of technicians who are on permanent day's that just do patrolling. With me being a team leader I have a feeling the manager won't be so lenient, but, if I don't ask, I'll never know. It's not really a career I envisaged, I always fancied going down the operations route, but again, back to night work, health before wealth I suppose.

 

[henke7]

Yes, everything. I have no problem falling asleep, I do so almost immediately. But, after 2-3 hours I'm wide awake and that's that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2025 ==


It's the same at our depot, there's a couple of technicians who are on permanent day's that just do patrolling. With me being a team leader I have a feeling the manager won't be so lenient, but, if I don't ask, I'll never know. It's not really a career I envisaged, I always fancied going down the operations route, but again, back to night work, health before wealth I suppose.

Definitely if you don’t ask you don’t get. Would you ever consider downgrading your self to a technician? I know everyone’s circumstances are different but if it means you can have a better work/life balance then the salary sacrifice could be tolerable.

 

[BigDog]

Definitely if you don’t ask you don’t get. Would you ever consider downgrading your self to a technician? I know everyone’s circumstances are different but if it means you can have a better work/life balance then the salary sacrifice could be tolerable.

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure. I took a pay cut to join NWR for the better work/life balance as my old job involved a lot of working away from home. I enjoy the railway I really do, but I've just reached 40 now and would like to live a more healthy lifestyle, sleep deprivation is seriously bad. I see RMT are making a lot of noise about night shifts and how bad they are for you, perhaps there is some hope, if not, unfortunately I may have to leave the industry.

 

[43066]

How exactly have you ‘tried your best’ to manage with nights? Most people find a way to get more than 2-3 hours sleep a day so what is preventing you from getting any more sleep? Have you tried varying the time you go to bed? Using blackout curtains? Eating at different times? Most people can make nights work for them.

I completely agree. The decent benefits and salaries they come with railway work unfortunately come with the quid pro quo of some seriously anti social hours.

After trying my best to manage with nights I've come to the conclusion that they are not for me. I just don't think it's worth the health risks, sleeping 2-3 hours every day is terrible for your body, even worse when it's doing nights. I'm going to speak to my line manager and ask if I can stay on permanent days, a couple of technicians are on permanent days patrolling, being a team leader he might reject me but if he does I'm informing him that I will be looking for something else.

Sorry but nights are presumably part of the job you’ve signed up to, and are therefore being paid for? Have you tried swapping the shifts you don’t like away? If you move onto permanent days, someone else will need to take your nights, of course. That sucks a little for them?

I can’t help but notice that, back in October, you said this:

Just to clarify, I have worked nights on and off since I started in 2003, they are nothing new to me.

So, if you’ve worked nights since 2003, that’s two decades ago now, so they’re nothing new to you. Surely that’s ample time to move into a role that doesn’t include nights, if you’d prefer not to work them?

 

[BigDog]

Yes, I've worked on the railway since 2003. When I first started I did my fair share of nights, but back then I could sleep better and they didn't affect me.

For the last decade though I was doing track civils which was mostly midweek days, i still had to do weekends which were mainly Saturday nights.

I took this job at NWR because it was local so meant no more working away, I thought that I would be able to handle the extra nights but I've learned that this is not the case.

The majority of lads i work with prefer nights, but, they are sleeping well, there's a big difference between getting a regular 7-8 hours of sleep a day to 2-3, it takes it's toll.

 

[nom de guerre]

Which TOC or FOC uses a roster that has 11 or 13 'scheduled' (assume you mean rostered) shifts in a row?

The poster just referred to “the railway” and the “industry”. They didn’t explicitly mention TOCs or FOCs (or any particular role).

Many signallers who’ve worked 8 hour rosters at single-manned boxes will have endured a rostered lates/nights rotation once every four weeks which included something like 11 consecutive shifts and 13 shifts in 14 days. Officially this satisfied NR’s fatigue index, but I, and everyone I worked with, found it exhausting (despite the fact I sleep well on nights).

 

[godfreycomplex]

The poster just referred to “the railway” and the “industry”. They didn’t explicitly mention TOCs or FOCs (or any particular role).

Many signallers who’ve worked 8 hour rosters at single-manned boxes will have endured a rostered lates/nights rotation once every four weeks which included something like 11 consecutive shifts and 13 shifts in 14 days. Officially this satisfied NR’s fatigue index, but I, and everyone I worked with, found it exhausting (despite the fact I sleep well on nights).

This is quite correct and people having a different relationship to working nights to the point where they need to change off them as they grow older is nothing new, in fact I can name double figures of people I’ve worked with that it’s happened to in my career.

I quite like nights and hate earlies (I’m 30) and when I was working shifts there was usually a queue at my door of older colleagues wishing to swap. No amount of money can solve the issue, sadly, it’s a part of human physicality and genetics.

 

[43066]

Yes, I've worked on the railway since 2003. When I first started I did my fair share of nights, but back then I could sleep better and they didn't affect me.

For the last decade though I was doing track civils which was mostly midweek days, i still had to do weekends which were mainly Saturday nights.

I took this job at NWR because it was local so meant no more working away, I thought that I would be able to handle the extra nights but I've learned that this is not the case.

The majority of lads i work with prefer nights, but, they are sleeping well, there's a big difference between getting a regular 7-8 hours of sleep a day to 2-3, it takes it's toll.

I can understand that, to be fair.

I guess the options really are to ask for accommodation of some sort or, if that isn’t possible, look to transition to a role with fewer nights. Perhaps worth chatting to your occupational health department considering why you’re struggling to sleep - whether sleep apnea is a possibility, for example.

 

[Crazyb]

Im not sure if this has been said, so I apologise if advance.

I understand your not a driver, but as a driver myself, have you gone through the flexible working arrangement. If you can't sleep for some reason, or can only sleep for a few hours then your up, could you not ask to see the Occupational Health or speak to your doctor. If there is a problem with your health and it can be highlighted, ask for a flexible arrangement to be put in place.

I've worked nights for 40 years, and there not for everyone and yes, going to bed at 7, 8, and 9am is not good, though i do have the occasional glass of wine, though it dosen't taste nice as it would at 8pm...lol, but it sends me to sleep. Maybe the nights are not for you, but there may be a underline issue you can't see, and only a doctor may see, why your body wakes up after 2 - 3 hours.

We have many flexible rosters in place at my depot from drivers having to pick their kids up from school to drivers that are on medical resticted.

It may sound daft, but it's worth a ask.

 

[BigDog]

Physically I'm fine, I personally think it's a mental block or something lol. I'm quite in to my health & fitness and so I read a lot. Nights as you all know are bad for your health, I think I've worked myself up in to a complex about them but I'm not sure that explains things. As I said, I fall to sleep quite easily but then wake up like clockwork. I then feel groggy and lethargic all day and I believe it triggers anxiety. I basically want off that particular shift pattern, hopefully I get some joy with my manager.

 

[niceman]

Physically I'm fine, I personally think it's a mental block or something lol. I'm quite in to my health & fitness and so I read a lot. Nights as you all know are bad for your health, I think I've worked myself up in to a complex about them but I'm not sure that explains things. As I said, I fall to sleep quite easily but then wake up like clockwork. I then feel groggy and lethargic all day and I believe it triggers anxiety. I basically want off that particular shift pattern, hopefully I get some joy with my manager.

Hi Big Dog. Hope you're well. Can I give some extra tips.

Get your sodium potassium and magnesium levels tested. Regardless of how much you take already.
Start trialing melatonin.
Wearing blue block glasses in the house.
Turning off the WiFi router. Phone on aeroplane mode. Change the smart meter.
Temperature of your room and house... early you fall asleep but you're waking as temp rises. People like different temperatures. Try really cool like 12 to 14. I can't sleep 16 and over. Everyone is different...
Get your cortisol level tested.
Get asleep study done.
Get a CGM (glucose monitor)
What's your diet,? Any fizzy pop, tea, chocolate. How many carbs do you eat.
Do you have family living with you, or mold in the house. I could go on.
Basically there is a reason your waking after 3 hours each morning. I reckon it's one or a combination of above and resolving them all will help...
Your brain is being triggered to wake you regardless of how tired you are. It's a case of working out what is doing it.
Good luck bud

 

[philthetube]

please don't be offended by this question but do you have a drink before going to bed, the reason I ask is that alcohol helps you to get to sleep but then causes you to wake after 3/4 hours.

If you get these checks done put vitamin d on the list as well, as a night worker you may well be low as one of the main sources in the body is sunlight.

 

[tixy]

Is it permanent nights you work?